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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

in what way is the service not effective or efficient?

I can give two personal examples. A few years back, Bus Eireann left me stranded in Castleblayney; the bus was full and the driver told me that there was a relief on the way. It never arrived. I ended up getting a McConnon's bus instead after several hours.

Secondly, when I was on a Galway to Limerick service, we were running late by Ennis but that didn't stop the driver from shutting down the engine and having a chat with a colleague in the station car park!

For years, I always said I disliked long-distance bus travel. But having experienced private operators on the Dublin to Galway route, I now know it's Bus Eireann I disliked, not the bus itself. Let them go to the wall I say.

end of the road wrote: »

expressway isn't subsidized either, and the other routes operated by the company are subsidized as they aren't financially viable and are subsidized for social good. the privates operating profitable intercity services proves jot.

And the fact that Expressway is losing money hand over fist proves how inefficient the company is and how much bad value we are also probably getting for our tax money on the PSO routes too.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

private operation doesn't stop strikes, fare rises, people seeking pay rises, and the rest. i thought luas would have finally got this through, but it seems not. having the public companies existing is the only way to insure there is a bench mark for any private competition to beat.

You peddled this rubbish during the luas strike. You were asked for comparitive examples in the private bus sector. You ignored the question over and over and over. You cited the luas dispute as an example of how strikes will happen in private transport, despite your refusal to accept how the dispute developed and was fostered by a number of factors exclusive to the type of transport that luas is.

This is a bus dispute. BE have no more money. They are top heavy on management and admin. The drivers are earning more than the private sector. Its a legacy issue supported by transport unions and the only way BE will compete on inter city routes is if there is a staff cull and wage adjustment.

devnull

I remember when a few years ago the union proposed to deal with this issue by forcing up all the wages on private operators and making the Bus Eireann rate a minimum rate of pay in the industry, I wouldn't be surprised if that would come up again in the near future.

Karsini wrote: »

For years, I always said I disliked long-distance bus travel. But having experienced private operators on the Dublin to Galway route, I now know it's Bus Eireann I disliked, not the bus itself. Let them go to the wall I say.

Wow, exactly the same myself. I use to hate taking the bus "long distance" *

Then I tried Aircoach to Cork and I found it fantastic. Now I've taken the bus to Belfast (Aircoach), Cork (Aricoach, GoBE), Galway (Citylink) and I've found them all to be great.

* Intercity in Ireland isn't really long distance at all. Pretty much medium distance internationally. Try Brazil, over night sleeper buses and all. For distances like Dublin to Belfast they use single decker city buses :eek:

Grandeeod

devnull wrote: »

I remember when a few years ago the union proposed to deal with this issue by forcing up all the wages on private operators and making the Bus Eireann rate a minimum rate of pay in the industry, I wouldn't be surprised if that would come up again in the near future.

Do you remember PAMBO?

Read below to see how CIE were "protected" before competition forced their hand.

http://www.independent.ie/business/competition-authority-to-investigate-anticompetitive-practices-in-the-bus-and-rail-public-transport-sector-26261598.html

This from 1997 - its been coming for a long time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/private-operators-test-bus-eireann-s-vulnerability-1.91789

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

There are always pros and cons to privatisation. But in Ireland with no accountability, no regard for tax payers money and a pay them off to keep them quiet mentality. I think privatisation is the better option ...

it isn't as it solves nothing as some of us have witnessed from elsewhere. in our case the government doesn't get involved in disputes and things are left to the operator and their staff to sort out for themselves, which i believe to be correct. privatizing to get the government out of being blamed for things hasn't worked over all as we have witnessed from elsewhere so that reason wouldn't work.

devnull wrote: »

So you're comparing the one private strike in the last 20 years in the transport sector with however many CIE have had in that time and saying somehow that it proves things are the same? Interesting logic.

no . the huge amount of strikes across the water dispite privatization is the comparison i use, and then i use the luas as a way to bring the reality home to ireland.

devnull wrote: »

He wasn't talking about PSO routes, he was talking about commercial routes

he should have made that clearer then, as from going on his posts on the subject over the years he seems to refer to all routes rather then commercial routes.

devnull wrote: »

Depends what fares you consider.

Advance fares are now much cheaper than they used to be even though walk-ups are quite a bit more expensive. So there are winners and losers. But far fewer people are using anytime walk up fares than years ago, many more people are using discounted tickets than previously.

There's also railcards for two people traveling together, disabled people, old people, students, families etc, which give great discounts, things which don't exist in Ireland, there re very few discounts for special groups apart from free travel pass holders.

I think season tickets are a little high certainly, however the problem is that the costs of providing peak time services are huge for rolling stock that is needed for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening and the rest of the time runs around empty.

If the operators were raking home huge profit margins I'd agree with you but the profits are relatively tight, they are only a couple of pence in every pound, it's not like they are taking double figures out of every pound which would indeed be a complete scandal.

Also anyone can say "it would have happened anyway." You could use that line anytime you disagree with something, but the very same people who say that, are the same people who say when bad things happen "That would never have happened if." if things went wrong and argue if the other side said "It would have happened anyway."

Cake and eat it.

i never mentioned the operators profit, i know how much they make over all.

Bass Reeves

devnull wrote: »

I remember when a few years ago the union proposed to deal with this issue by forcing up all the wages on private operators and making the Bus Eireann rate a minimum rate of pay in the industry, I wouldn't be surprised if that would come up again in the near future.

This will not fly as rate/ hour is virtually the same between BE and private operators. The difference is in hours driven by drivers and number of hours a bus put up per day. This all reduced cost to private operators.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

no . the huge amount of strikes across the water dispite privatization is the comparison i use, and then i use the luas as a way to bring the reality home to ireland.

Please list the strike actions within the Private bus sector in Ireland.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no . the huge amount of strikes across the water dispite privatization is the comparison i use, and then i use the luas as a way to bring the reality home to ireland.

Many arguments you have used in the past is that Ireland is different to the UK and that what happens over there has no connection what happens here., but if you cannot find any example to use from Ireland you are only too happy to quote what is happening in the UK.

It's like another poster has said, you are unable to show a bus operator in Ireland striking and you continually ignore this fact. This is despite the fact that a lot of the private bus operators in Ireland do have unions and have done for many years.

What you are basically saying is you are cobbling a few things together to try and make a point in absence of any direct proof. Which is basically clutching at straws.

he should have made that clearer then, as from going on his posts on the subject over the years he seems to refer to all routes rather then commercial routes.

Considering he used words like Expressway and commercial in his post, that should have been a dead give away that he was talking about commercial services.

Maybe you should clear your cookies and cache on your computer in-case pages are not loading correctly and scan your computer for spyware if you don't see these words?

Bass Reeves

TBH this strike could be the end of Expressway. It will lose marketshare which it will find hard to regain. NTA might also do a deal with PO to accept bus passes again on these routes. Unions may well be leading workers on the road to nowhere. Is the whole of BE going on strike the urban services and PSO services if so a huge shake up may happen afterwards

suicide_circus

Is it possible that BE management are willing to see the strike go ahead if it brings matters to a head from which there is only one way out?

devnull

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This will not fly as rate/ hour is virtually the same between BE and private operators. The difference is in hours driven by drivers and number of hours a bus put up per day. This all reduced cost to private operators.

The other trouble with BE is there is a fixed working day for all drivers and that fixed working day has no resemblance to the work that they actually do. It's fixed across all drivers which is another grossly inefficient procedure.

If a driver is 'working' for 9 hours a day every day he/she is scheduled to work he/she should be contracted for 9 hours a day. In BE it's not like this, all drivers are contracted for 8 hours a day and anything excess is overtime.

That's why you have the crazy situation of some drivers earning overtime on every single day of the year and the problem is this vastly pushes the cost of providing the services up in some cases doubling them.

BE have been more than willing to offer an increase in core pay in exchange for reducing overtime to operate their business in a sustainable way, however the unions will not take this up because operating the business to give best value to the taxpayer and in an efficient way will stop this huge profiteering.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TBH this strike could be the end of Expressway. It will lose marketshare which it will find hard to regain.

Yup, I was thinking that. I suspect the private operators will be bringing in buses and drivers from the UK to meet the greatly increased demand on their routes. Once people get a taste of these private operators, I wonder how many will return. Seems like shooting themselves in the foot.

Of course there will be questions about the GoBE service to Cork, there was a lot of messing around with it the last time in Cork.

devnull

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TBH this strike could be the end of Expressway. It will lose marketshare which it will find hard to regain. NTA might also do a deal with PO to accept bus passes again on these routes. Unions may well be leading workers on the road to nowhere. Is the whole of BE going on strike the urban services and PSO services if so a huge shake up may happen afterwards

I think that the ultimate end game is that they hold on and don't fold until FF are in power since they believe that FF may well be more likely to intervene, which I would say is probably true considering their past record, even if they'll be basically doing the public a dis-service.

They'll then be hoping there will be reforms to discriminate against non state owned commercial operators or provide positive discrimination in favour of Bus Eireann in relation to licensing because it will create good press for a new governmen.

BTW No one is saying that their can't be strikes at private operators.

However I do have the feeling that the CIE companies are a complete pain in the ass for the Government and that the Government would rather see them broke up and their operations hived off to private operators.

Yes, some of these private operators could still go out on strike, but it would have far less reaching and national effects then all of BE going out on strike.

For instance imagine Aircoach staff going on strike, sure it wouldn't be great, but it would probably barely make the news and most people would have alternative services they could take.

Now extend that to all CIE services. Imagine each of the BE city services was operated by a different individual private company. If one went on strike, no big deal. Imagine if each of the intercity and commuter PSO routes were operated by lots of different private companies.

Now you have far less disruptive strikes if they do happen and probably less likely in the first place.

CIE has been far too powerful and far too disruptive to the Government for it's own good and it is clear to me that the Government has been moving to weaken and break it up. That is why the Luas design, build and running was pulled out of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to build and run.

BE going out on strike will play right into the governments hands IMO. The unions are playing a very dangerous game, the government might be very happy to see BE go to the wall.

devnull

Thing is though, I fear that the union are going to try to use this issue to try and help collapse the current government to get one in that is more likely to not want to do that.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

BTW No one is saying that their can't be strikes at private operators.

However I do have the feeling that the CIE companies are a complete pain in the ass for the Government and that the Government would rather see them broke up and their operations hived off to private operators.

Yes, some of these private operators could still go out on strike, but it would have far less reaching and national effects then all of BE going out on strike.

For instance imagine Aircoach staff going on strike, sure it wouldn't be great, but it would probably barely make the news and most people would have alternative services they could take.

Now extend that to all CIE services. Imagine each of the BE city services was operated by a different individual private company. If one went on strike, no big deal. Imagine if each of the intercity and commuter PSO routes were operated by lots of different private companies.

Now you have far less disruptive strikes if they do happen and probably less likely in the first place.

CIE has been far too powerful and far too disruptive to the Government for it's own good and it is clear to me that the Government has been moving to weaken and break it up. That is why the Luas design, build and running was pulled out of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to build and run.

BE going out on strike will play right into the governments hands IMO. The unions are playing a very dangerous game, the government might be very happy to see BE go to the wall.

Careful now.:D EOTR will be along shortly to remind you that despite not being controlled by CIE and operated by a private company, luas still went on strike. Of course he won't mention the myriad of reasons it happened.;)

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Many arguments you have used in the past is that Ireland is different to the UK and that what happens over there has no connection what happens here., but if you cannot find any example to use from Ireland you are only too happy to quote what is happening in the UK.

the statement was that privatization doesn't stop the things it is usually said it does stop. strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. i provided a country that fully relies on such a model which still has those issues. what i actually said over the years is that ireland is different in some ways and similar in others to the uk.

devnull wrote: »

It's like another poster has said, you are unable to show a bus operator in Ireland striking and you continually ignore this fact. This is despite the fact that a lot of the private bus operators in Ireland do have unions and have done for many years.

i provided a private sector transport company who went on strike here in ireland. i provided a country which relies fully on a private model and has strikes. the fact you don't like the examples given doesn't change the over all point and it's validity.

devnull wrote: »

What you are basically saying is you are cobbling a few things together to try and make a point in absence of any direct proof. Which is basically clutching at straws.

nope. it is what you are saying i'm saying.

bk wrote: »

Yup, I was thinking that. I suspect the private operators will be bringing in buses and drivers from the UK to meet the greatly increased demand on their routes.

i find it unlikely that would happen. it's unlikely they have busses and drivers lying around and i doubt they are going to move busses from potentially more lucrative routes to come over here. how many of the private operators operating stopping services are multi-national or foreign and would have access to busses abroad.

bk wrote: »

BTW No one is saying that their can't be strikes at private operators.

However I do have the feeling that the CIE companies are a complete pain in the ass for the Government and that the Government would rather see them broke up and their operations hived off to private operators.

Yes, some of these private operators could still go out on strike, but it would have far less reaching and national effects then all of BE going out on strike.

For instance imagine Aircoach staff going on strike, sure it wouldn't be great, but it would probably barely make the news and most people would have alternative services they could take.

Now extend that to all CIE services. Imagine each of the BE city services was operated by a different individual private company. If one went on strike, no big deal. Imagine if each of the intercity and commuter PSO routes were operated by lots of different private companies.

Now you have far less disruptive strikes if they do happen and probably less likely in the first place.

CIE has been far too powerful and far too disruptive to the Government for it's own good and it is clear to me that the Government has been moving to weaken and break it up. That is why the Luas design, build and running was pulled out of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to build and run.

BE going out on strike will play right into the governments hands IMO. The unions are playing a very dangerous game, the government might be very happy to see BE go to the wall.

and i suppose i would then be expected to hand over more tax money to clear up the fall out and pay for multiple companies to operate the services rather then 1.
personally i'm happy for things to remain as they are warts and all, rather then potentially pay a lot more to others. if i'm paying, i pay to something i own rather then something i don't

devnull wrote: »

Thing is though, I fear that the union are going to try to use this issue to try and help collapse the current government to get one in that is more likely to not want to do that.

either the government will collapse of it's own accord as it isn't very popular anyway, or it will remain until election time.

marienbad

end of the road wrote: »

a

the statement was that privatization doesn't stop the things it is usually said it does stop. strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. i provided a country that fully relies on such a model which still has those issues. what i actually said over the years is that ireland is different in some ways and similar in others to the uk.

.

You are correct ,privatisation doesn't stop any of those things per se , but it does appear to lessen them , at least in Ireland it does .

But - and this is by far the most important effect - it does reduce or eliminate the abuse of a monopoly position .

And this is what we have seen for decades in Public Service and Semi State organisations - Aerlingus . Aer Rianta , ESB and on and on .

Both management and workers long forgot any public service ethic and were/are run solely for their own benefit with the tax payer always picking up the tab .

Aer Lingus were the perfect case study .

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i provided a private sector transport company who went on strike here in ireland. i provided a country which relies fully on a private model and has strikes. the fact you don't like the examples given doesn't change the over all point and it's validity.

There is no validity. The luas is irrelavent here. This is a thread about a bus strike within BE. Once again please provide an example of strikes within the private bus sector in Ireland.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

the statement was that privatization doesn't stop the things it is usually said it does stop. strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. i provided a country that fully relies on such a model which still has those issues. what i actually said over the years is that ireland is different in some ways and similar in others to the uk.

In other words if what happens in the UK suits your argument, you will be happy to bring it into your argument and say it is a valid point and the countries are going to be the same but if it doesn't you will say that it cannot be compared as it is not a valid point as the countries are different? Over the years, you have done that a lot, which is what I am pointing out.

devnull wrote: »

What you are basically saying is you are cobbling a few things together to try and make a point in absence of any direct proof. Which is basically clutching at straws.

I can't remember the last time you ever posted a source to back anything up. You constantly just post opinion as fact and never have anything direct to back it up. If anyone does something good and they are a party you are not a fan of, you then resort back to the usual "It would happen anyway."

i find it unlikely that would happen. it's unlikely they have busses and drivers lying around and i doubt they are going to move busses from potentially more lucrative routes to come over here.

The correct term is fleet cascading and you will find that it happens all of the time between private operators who deploy vehicles from one part of their operation to the other depending on demand and win/loss of contracts etc. Aircoach have done it in the past and Citylink have also done it in the past

and i suppose i would then be expected to hand over more tax money to clear up the fall out and pay for multiple companies to operate the services rather then 1

A monopoly is never cheaper than a competitive tender since in a monopoly situation there is no incentive to keep costs low if you know that the state or the contracting body has no choice but to accept your bid or not get the services at all.

The fact that drivers are earning 1.5 hours overtime a day and are spending 4 hours a day without even driving suggests that there are massive cost reductions to be made, especially when some staff are earning 25k in overtime, so it could be done a lot cheaper.

By BE own calculations, in a proper rostered workforce they could run the same level of service with 350 less drivers which would make a huge cost saving by eliminating the crazy amounts of overtime which is currently paid which is grossly inefficient.

Overtime should be used as a tool to cover being short staffed or to cope with delays or unforseen demands or once off events. In BE it's used as a way to operate everyday services at massive cost to the company and to cover unsustainable rotas and poor use of resources within the company.

Overtime should be a last resort when the business has been structured in a way to ensure they are getting the best value out of their employees, in BE the staff are making the company as unsustainable as possible with rotas, in the knowledge that unsustainable rotas = less work and more money in overtime, which is taking taxpayers for a ride.

end of the road

QUOTE=devnull;102696356]In other words if what happens in the UK suits your argument, you will be happy to bring it into your argument and say it is a valid point and the countries are going to be the same but if it doesn't you will say that it cannot be compared as it is not a valid point as the countries are different? Over the years, you have done that a lot, which is what I am pointing out.[/QUOTE]

nope, i take things on a case by case basis and judge them by similar examples and how they have worked out.

devnull wrote: »

The correct term is fleet cascading and you will find that it happens all of the time between private operators who deploy vehicles from one part of their operation to the other depending on demand and win/loss of contracts etc. Aircoach have done it in the past and Citylink have also done it in the past

i'm well aware what it is called thanks.

devnull wrote: »

A monopoly is never cheaper than a competitive tender since in a monopoly situation there is no incentive to keep costs low if you know that the state or the contracting body has no choice but to accept your bid or not get the services at all.

in our case or the case of the average business that would be correct but in the case of public services i have saw nothing that convinces me that what you stated is correct.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

nope, i take things on a case by case basis and judge them by similar examples and how they have worked out.

So on a case by case basis, can you please quote an example of a strike in the private bus sector in Ireland? You have lots of operators to choose from.

Bellview

Grandeeod wrote:

Careful now. EOTR will be along shortly to remind you that despite not being controlled by CIE and operated by a private company, luas still went on strike. Of course he won't mention the myriad of reasons it happened.

But the union gained zero for the drivers as the offer accepted by drivers cost same as original offer from luas. Interview between pat Kenny and union lad was a great debate a few months ago..where union lad bluffed and stuttered through straight questions

Pity come to this but why union feel tax payers should tolerate a blank cheque for bus e is just crazy.

end of the road

Bellview wrote: »

But the union gained zero for the drivers as the offer accepted by drivers cost same as original offer from luas.

they got a pay review after a certain amount of time for new drivers. doesn't sound much to us but it's a good bit for them i should think

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

jmlfc

Trade in all the new 2015-2017 reg buses

end of the road

bk wrote: »

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

there is no, nor was ever, any holding of the state/country or anyone to ransom by strikes. strikes cause inconvenience but sometimes it is necessary for the greater good of improving things. i believe here a strike isn't the way to go but i have to trust that the bus eireann staff have weighed up the pros and cons and have made their decisian based on the facts availible and have decided they haven't an option, rightly or wrongly. it can still be called off and i hope it will. the breaking up of CIE will come down to whether the government wishes to pay more over all.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

Breaking up CIE is long long overdue. The late Seamus Brennan was the last to mention it. Came to nothing after the usual union BS that resulted in the infamous no fares day in the early noughties. Politicians are afraid of it and skirt around the issue. Nearly 70 years of the toxic dose that is the CIE group and I make no apology for saying that.