end of the road wrote: » a the statement was that privatization doesn't stop the things it is usually said it does stop. strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. i provided a country that fully relies on such a model which still has those issues. what i actually said over the years is that ireland is different in some ways and similar in others to the uk. .
devnull wrote: » Many arguments you have used in the past is that Ireland is different to the UK and that what happens over there has no connection what happens here., but if you cannot find any example to use from Ireland you are only too happy to quote what is happening in the UK.
devnull wrote: » It's like another poster has said, you are unable to show a bus operator in Ireland striking and you continually ignore this fact. This is despite the fact that a lot of the private bus operators in Ireland do have unions and have done for many years.
devnull wrote: » What you are basically saying is you are cobbling a few things together to try and make a point in absence of any direct proof. Which is basically clutching at straws. nope. it is what you are saying i'm saying. bk wrote: » Yup, I was thinking that. I suspect the private operators will be bringing in buses and drivers from the UK to meet the greatly increased demand on their routes. i find it unlikely that would happen. it's unlikely they have busses and drivers lying around and i doubt they are going to move busses from potentially more lucrative routes to come over here. how many of the private operators operating stopping services are multi-national or foreign and would have access to busses abroad. bk wrote: » BTW No one is saying that their can't be strikes at private operators. However I do have the feeling that the CIE companies are a complete pain in the ass for the Government and that the Government would rather see them broke up and their operations hived off to private operators. Yes, some of these private operators could still go out on strike, but it would have far less reaching and national effects then all of BE going out on strike. For instance imagine Aircoach staff going on strike, sure it wouldn't be great, but it would probably barely make the news and most people would have alternative services they could take. Now extend that to all CIE services. Imagine each of the BE city services was operated by a different individual private company. If one went on strike, no big deal. Imagine if each of the intercity and commuter PSO routes were operated by lots of different private companies. Now you have far less disruptive strikes if they do happen and probably less likely in the first place. CIE has been far too powerful and far too disruptive to the Government for it's own good and it is clear to me that the Government has been moving to weaken and break it up. That is why the Luas design, build and running was pulled out of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to build and run. BE going out on strike will play right into the governments hands IMO. The unions are playing a very dangerous game, the government might be very happy to see BE go to the wall. and i suppose i would then be expected to hand over more tax money to clear up the fall out and pay for multiple companies to operate the services rather then 1. personally i'm happy for things to remain as they are warts and all, rather then potentially pay a lot more to others. if i'm paying, i pay to something i own rather then something i don't devnull wrote: » Thing is though, I fear that the union are going to try to use this issue to try and help collapse the current government to get one in that is more likely to not want to do that. either the government will collapse of it's own accord as it isn't very popular anyway, or it will remain until election time.
bk wrote: » Yup, I was thinking that. I suspect the private operators will be bringing in buses and drivers from the UK to meet the greatly increased demand on their routes.
bk wrote: » BTW No one is saying that their can't be strikes at private operators. However I do have the feeling that the CIE companies are a complete pain in the ass for the Government and that the Government would rather see them broke up and their operations hived off to private operators. Yes, some of these private operators could still go out on strike, but it would have far less reaching and national effects then all of BE going out on strike. For instance imagine Aircoach staff going on strike, sure it wouldn't be great, but it would probably barely make the news and most people would have alternative services they could take. Now extend that to all CIE services. Imagine each of the BE city services was operated by a different individual private company. If one went on strike, no big deal. Imagine if each of the intercity and commuter PSO routes were operated by lots of different private companies. Now you have far less disruptive strikes if they do happen and probably less likely in the first place. CIE has been far too powerful and far too disruptive to the Government for it's own good and it is clear to me that the Government has been moving to weaken and break it up. That is why the Luas design, build and running was pulled out of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to build and run. BE going out on strike will play right into the governments hands IMO. The unions are playing a very dangerous game, the government might be very happy to see BE go to the wall.
devnull wrote: » Thing is though, I fear that the union are going to try to use this issue to try and help collapse the current government to get one in that is more likely to not want to do that.
Bass Reeves wrote: » TBH this strike could be the end of Expressway. It will lose marketshare which it will find hard to regain. NTA might also do a deal with PO to accept bus passes again on these routes. Unions may well be leading workers on the road to nowhere. Is the whole of BE going on strike the urban services and PSO services if so a huge shake up may happen afterwards
Bass Reeves wrote: » TBH this strike could be the end of Expressway. It will lose marketshare which it will find hard to regain.
Bass Reeves wrote: » This will not fly as rate/ hour is virtually the same between BE and private operators. The difference is in hours driven by drivers and number of hours a bus put up per day. This all reduced cost to private operators.
end of the road wrote: » no . the huge amount of strikes across the water dispite privatization is the comparison i use, and then i use the luas as a way to bring the reality home to ireland.
he should have made that clearer then, as from going on his posts on the subject over the years he seems to refer to all routes rather then commercial routes.
devnull wrote: » I remember when a few years ago the union proposed to deal with this issue by forcing up all the wages on private operators and making the Bus Eireann rate a minimum rate of pay in the industry, I wouldn't be surprised if that would come up again in the near future.
Idbatterim wrote: » There are always pros and cons to privatisation. But in Ireland with no accountability, no regard for tax payers money and a pay them off to keep them quiet mentality. I think privatisation is the better option ...
devnull wrote: » So you're comparing the one private strike in the last 20 years in the transport sector with however many CIE have had in that time and saying somehow that it proves things are the same? Interesting logic.
devnull wrote: » He wasn't talking about PSO routes, he was talking about commercial routes
devnull wrote: » Depends what fares you consider. Advance fares are now much cheaper than they used to be even though walk-ups are quite a bit more expensive. So there are winners and losers. But far fewer people are using anytime walk up fares than years ago, many more people are using discounted tickets than previously. There's also railcards for two people traveling together, disabled people, old people, students, families etc, which give great discounts, things which don't exist in Ireland, there re very few discounts for special groups apart from free travel pass holders. I think season tickets are a little high certainly, however the problem is that the costs of providing peak time services are huge for rolling stock that is needed for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening and the rest of the time runs around empty. If the operators were raking home huge profit margins I'd agree with you but the profits are relatively tight, they are only a couple of pence in every pound, it's not like they are taking double figures out of every pound which would indeed be a complete scandal. Also anyone can say "it would have happened anyway." You could use that line anytime you disagree with something, but the very same people who say that, are the same people who say when bad things happen "That would never have happened if." if things went wrong and argue if the other side said "It would have happened anyway." Cake and eat it.
Karsini wrote: » For years, I always said I disliked long-distance bus travel. But having experienced private operators on the Dublin to Galway route, I now know it's Bus Eireann I disliked, not the bus itself. Let them go to the wall I say.
end of the road wrote: » private operation doesn't stop strikes, fare rises, people seeking pay rises, and the rest. i thought luas would have finally got this through, but it seems not. having the public companies existing is the only way to insure there is a bench mark for any private competition to beat.
end of the road wrote: » expressway isn't subsidized either, and the other routes operated by the company are subsidized as they aren't financially viable and are subsidized for social good. the privates operating profitable intercity services proves jot.
end of the road wrote: » in what way is the service not effective or efficient?
end of the road wrote: » that is true, but it is still the case that privatization of the railways in britain brought poor value for money, overpriced fares and ridiculous costs for the most basic of things. the disintegration and disjointment. had british rail been able to get on with it (which, while they were far from perfect they were actually getting there by the end and delivering dispite the low subsidy) then chances are more would have been delivered had they been funded properly. most if not all the projects that need doing were on their list long before now, and chances are they would have been delivered. much of what is said to have been delivered by privatization, delivered by br. the dft's failings aren't proof that things on the railway should be left to private hands, they are just proof the dft are incompetent, in my view.
privates operating with no subsidy means nothing as there is no comparison between the routes they mostly operate and the routes bus eireann over all run.
in what way is the service not effective or efficient? pay must be more then the private rates so that the company can have huge choice of staff. it's up to the privates what they wish to do for themselves.
dublinman1990 wrote: » Talks have collasped. Strike from Bus Eireann staff is well & truly on from next Monday.http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0221/854155-bus-eireann-dispute-back-at-wrc/
hmmm wrote: » Is there any part of the public sector that has been able to compete with private operators without subsidy? Perhaps it's time to accept that our public service cannot compete with private operators and plan accordingly - instead of slowly introducing private competition (e.g. the 10% Dublin bus route plan) we should instead shut down the public operator, pay generous redundancy and start from scratch with 100% private operators. We can't be having these endless strikes and hassle.
salonfire wrote: » Well, of course. If I am shopping around for car insurance for instance, I don't choose the one that costs me the most money. Likewise, I don't want to see my taxes and charges any higher than they need to be to fund salaries anymore than it needs to be. Nobody is jealous of others' wages. There is not a single post in this all forum bemoaning the wages earned by others outside the state sector. I don't give a monkey's what the senior management are Dunnes Stores is getting paid because it costs me nothing. I don't shop there. But when it comes to already overpaid state workers trying to extract even more money from the taxpayer (me), then I will raise my objections. And plenty others too. If the private sector can operate a superior service with no subsidy then surely it's obvious there should be more private sector involvement in transport.
Flex wrote: » Was listening to something about this on Today FM, Dermot O Leary was on too. Apparently the company will be insolvent by May Dermot O Leary kept saying that 'its a public company so the notion of being a low cost operator is ridiculous', 'department of transport needs to get involved' and the usual lines about wanting to fleece taxpayers or that how dare people have the temerity to expect a public service to be efficient. He also said that the public are absolutely behind the workers and NBRU, however the host then told him they had been getting loads of texts during the interview and they were overwhelmingly in support of management and made the point that when your employer is facing bankruptcy you have to be willing to adjust. He swotted that away again by saying its a public company, etc. As others have said, I would have no problem with a further subsidy increase if the service was efficient effective cost structure was the same as private operators pay was in line with the private rates in the market But it isnt. In general, that is why Im very much in favour of low public spending in Ireland; the public sector in Ireland exists with the primary purpose of providing employment to people with higher rates of pay than they could achieve in the private market. The notion of providing an efficient and effective service for the public is a distant second. Thats also the reason our capital budget was gutted over the last 10 years; to prop up inflated current expenditure.
devnull wrote: » Unfortunately a lot of the problems in the United Kingdom have not been caused by the private operators but by the Strategic Rail Authority and the Department for Transport who in some cases have banned operators from ordering new rolling stock, have micro-managed orders or have took control of procurement exercises from private operators and took 4-5 years to complete a tender that would be done in a quarter of that time if left to the private sector alone. That's why you have silly situations where an operator predicts overcrowding on a line in a certain timeframe and places an order for rolling stock to deal with it, the department then turns around and tells them that their growth prospects are too ambitious and they are not allowed to order that many trains and when the trains are delivered and are proven to not be enough, the department then turns around to the operator and asks them to urgently do something about a problem that was caused by the department in the first place. As for Essex, you will be pleased to know that currently a whole new fleet is in construction for the whole of East Anglia including Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk services which will amount to over 1000 carriages to be implemented between 2019/2020 in a full fleet replacement after the British Government finally decided that they are no longer going to meddle or micro manage rolling stock the way they have in the past.
bk wrote: » And yet the private operators deliver a vastly superior intercity service (almost 24/7, hourly service, non-stop using motorways, toilets, wifi, plugs, etc.) for the same ticket price as BE Expressway and with zero subsidy.
Infini2 wrote: » I should point out that this is the kind of poisonous cancer from the so called private sector supporters that leads to the likes of idiots like Trump or Brexit happening. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a bloody retarded tool as it's basically used by certain private parties to undermine peoples terms and conditions. Undermine wages by bringing in foreign workers to undercut, I mean this is the kind of crap that erodes the middle class and starts race wars. I honestly think at this stage people only want to be jealous of peoples wages or find an excuse to be bitter or rant that its not fair on them. Really now, honestly, why does anyone here actually wanna be putting down people on a middle class wage, anything between 35~55k isn't exactly big money these days it only LOOKS like it and thats before taxes and costs. It seems to me people here only want to put down others for their own self interest and nothing more.
Grandeeod wrote: » Salon Fire has a point. I will quote you examples. B+I Line - State owned, heavily unionised, loss making and prone to frequent industrial action. Sold off to ICG to become Irish Ferries. Old B+I Unions were tackled by management, mass redundancies followed and staff replaced by workers from abroad on different terms. Union Power smashed. Waste collection - Previously the responsibility of CC's, heavily unionised and prone to frequent industrial action. Privatised. Some CC staff made redundant/transferred to private operator. Only one serious dispute since privatisation and that was in Greyhound waste and only in one depot. All legacy employees from DCC. Out of 78 workers 13 retained their terms and conditions based on their length of service while the rest took redundancy or a 15 to 20 percent pay cut. Legacy issues dealt with. Union power smashed. Airline Industry - One word, Ryanair.
Infini2 wrote: » To be honest HOW are you getting skint exactly? Your not being presented with ANY bill here. You seem to think that somehow the transport sector is running off with huge chunks of the budget yet the amount of cash in the overall budget to keep BE financed would be miniscule compared to other stuff. I honestly think your being foolish with this whole "taxpayer" thing because there would be far bigger things to be honest in the budget that would be far more questionable. If anything why are fares allowed to rise instead of the subsidy being increased to keep fares down instead?
hmmm wrote: » Well, until it goes bust and shuts down. You can't run a company that makes losses forever - what sort of reserves do they have?
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