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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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Jamie2k9

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0220/853911-bus-eireann-talks/

The document identifies a number of routes being considered for closure. They include the X7 Dublin to Clonmel route, the 021 Athlone to Westport route and the 833 Dublin to Derry route.

X7 has Dublin Coach (Kilkenny) and JJ's (Clonmel)

n97 mini

What's the 833? Do they mean 33?

GM228

n97 mini wrote: »

What's the 833? Do they mean 33?

Yes 833 is/was the 33, 833 was used for the online fares for the 33 - or at least it used to be, why is anyones guess?

But I think 833 reverted back to 33 when Fingal Express took that number.

Idbatterim

ridiculous! 45k average for clerical staff! LOL Blanket pay increase claims are now beyond off the wall, time to look into who is doing what and getting paid what and decide from there!

Infini

How exactly is 45k a year excessive to be honest? When you take taxes into account that drops it down to what? €600 a week? Its not alot when you factor in morgages, bills, kids etc it only LOOKS big. When you take everything out it could be alot less by the time everything is paid for.

Brendan Bendar

Infini2 wrote: »

How exactly is 45k a year excessive to be honest? When you take taxes into account that drops it down to what? €600 a week? Its not alot when you factor in morgages, bills, kids etc it only LOOKS big. When you take everything out it could be alot less by the time everything is paid for.

It's excessive when the company paying you is losing money hand over fist.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

How exactly is 45k a year excessive to be honest? When you take taxes into account that drops it down to what? €600 a week? Its not alot when you factor in morgages, bills, kids etc it only LOOKS big. When you take everything out it could be alot less by the time everything is paid for.

Serious??

Should be between 35-40k at most and that's been kind. DB isn't even that high (?)

Chances are private operators are earning 25-30k at a push.

Brendan Bendar

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Serious??

Could be between 35-40k at most and that's been kind. DB isn't even that high (?)

Chances are private operators are earning 25-30k at a push.

1.6 million lost in the month of Jan!!!

C'mon.

:cool:

n97 mini

Infini2 wrote: »

How exactly is 45k a year excessive to be honest? When you take taxes into account that drops it down to what? €600 a week? Its not alot when you factor in morgages, bills, kids etc it only LOOKS big. When you take everything out it could be alot less by the time everything is paid for.

Read all the text. An unusually high number of clerical staff are Officer level. None are on the basic grade. 1 in 5 are managers.

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

ridiculous! 45k average for clerical staff! LOL Blanket pay increase claims are now beyond off the wall, time to look into who is doing what and getting paid what and decide from there!

that has all ready either been done, or is in the process of being done.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

that has all ready either been done, or is in the process of being done.

Yes, we know, that is what is being resisted right now.

Brendan Bendar

Noone didn't impress on Drivetime.

Out of his depth, should have stuck with the planes.

Idbatterim

hat has all ready either been done, or is in the process of being done.

I mean across the entire PS, many want pay increases and are already well overpaid! While some of their shorting serving colleagues are possibly being underpaid. Time to start looking at this in a more surgical manor!

devnull

Idbatterim wrote: »

I mean across the entire PS, many want pay increases and are already well overpaid! While some of their shorting serving colleagues are possibly being underpaid. Time to start looking at this in a more surgical manor!

The irony is the same people who are happy to sell their junior colleagues down the river to keep their own perks and terms and conditions up are the very same ones who are moaning about people above them in the chain doing the same thing that they are doing themselves.

Harry Palmr

As I understand it, Expressway accounts for 90% of Bus Eireann losses so the logical thing to do would be to hive off Expressway to a new company on fresh terms and conditions that reflect the reality of the market.

Or is that just too obvious?

Grandeeod

Harry Palmr wrote: »

As I understand it, Expressway accounts for 90% of Bus Eireann losses so the logical thing to do would be to hive off Expressway to a new company on fresh terms and conditions that reflect the reality of the market.

Or is that just too obvious?

It is to you and I and a few others. But wait for the ****storm>>>>>>

Idbatterim

in fairness if you were a bus eireann driver, you could question, why should you, who just happens to be an expressway driver, take the hit and your colleagues who just happen through chance, to be working for a different arm are left unscathed? Politics will play a large part in this...

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

in fairness if you were a bus eireann driver, you could question, why should you, who just happens to be an expressway driver, take the hit and your colleagues who just happen through chance, to be working for a different arm are left unscathed? Politics will play a large part in this...

Politics created it in the first place.

mikemac2

November last year SIPTU and the NBRU were looking for a pay increase of 11.25% over three years. The media threw out a headline grabbing figure of 21% but we all know the dance, aim sky high, climb down and appear reasonable

By the first week of January the NBRU have gone from looking for increases to trying to fight cuts

This situation went 360 degrees in a blink of a eye

I can't ever remember a situation like this

n97 mini

mikemac2 wrote: »

November last year SIPTU and the NBRU were looking for a pay increase of 11.25% over three years. The media threw out a headline grabbing figure of 21% but we all know the dance, aim sky high, climb down and appear reasonable

By the first week of January the NBRU have gone from looking for increases to trying to fight cuts

This situation went 360 degrees in a blink of a eye I can't ever remember a situation like this

Is the pay claim not still on the table, just not the first item on the agenda?

Bass Reeves

Grandeeod wrote: »

It is to you and I and a few others. But wait for the ****storm>>>>>>

I do not think there will be any sh!tstorm reality is begining to dawn there will be no good fairy coming along with a magic wand. The government may be able help fund a redundancy scheme and that is a big maybe. If you look at the figures it is not completely a driver issue. Clerical and management is an issue as well. Nearly 450 ancillary staff to less than 1,400 drivers. So you are looking at a 3-1 ratio which is substantially high for any business. 120 senior management and executive or a 1 to 15 ratio.

However it is well to remember for BE to survive it is not just the present losses that must be stemmed but also surplus cash must be generated to replace present buses etc. The biggest issue will be to solve the problem fully so that this issue will not have to be revisited again in 5 years time. That means that hard decisions will need to be taken.

The NBRU and SIPTU complaining about BE putting out a position paper is ridiculous. The issue has been the failure if these unions having for the last six months trying to drag the government and the NTA into an issue that needs to be so!ved mainly within BE. If absenteeism present levels of sick leave and driver flexibility was solved within the company it would be a big help to solving driver issues.

However issues with maintenance and clerical will be harder to resolve. IMO the harder cuts will come here. The clerical issue where nearly 50% of clerical staff are at the staff officer grade is hard to understand and is unsustainable. New work practices in the garages seem to be an issue as well to reduce downtimes of buses so as to reduce contracted in stock and to increase viability of own stock.

loyatemu

Bass Reeves wrote: »

However it is well to remember for BE to survive it is not just the present losses that must be stemmed but also surplus cash must be generated to replace present buses etc. The biggest issue will be to solve the problem fully so that this issue will not have to be revisited again in 5 years time. That means that hard decisions will need to be taken.

Do the NTA not supply buses as with DB?

GM228

loyatemu wrote: »

Do the NTA not supply buses as with DB?

The NTA only provides part capital expenditure towards new buses, because a lot of new and dearer buses are for the Expressway services which is BEs own commercial wing and outside the scope of the required buses for PSO services.

In 2015 their capital expenditure was €18.5m, with only €8.7m coming from the NTA.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

The NTA only provides part capital expenditure towards new buses, because a lot of new and dearer buses are for the Expressway services which is BEs own commercial wing and outside the scope of the required buses for PSO services.

The NTA provides full funding for all vehicles for the PSO fleet, and always has done since it has been in existence. It's core remit is to that of the traveling public and to reducing car dependency and increasing the use of public transport in various markets across the State

Expressway however is a fully commercial arm of Dublin Bus and it's actions are not subsdised by the state through the authority and even if they wanted to they would not be able to do so under EU Law since it would be considered illegal state aid and would not be in the interests of the public anyway as it would stifle innovation in the market.

In 2015 their capital expenditure was €18.5m, with only €8.7m coming from the NTA.

In 2015 they invested in over €7.2m in double decker coaches alone, that is before you even consider the city buses and single decker coaches that were also invested in that year.

And in 2016 they invested over €50m
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/fleet-of-the-future-over-100-new-buses-for-bus-eireann-services-nationwide/

Note that capital investment by the NTA will in a number of cases not be included on the companies accounts and instead will be on the NTAS account as they are the people who purchased and own the vehicles. This is the case with Dublin bus for instance.

[Deleted User]

Infini2 wrote: »

How exactly is 45k a year excessive to be honest? When you take taxes into account that drops it down to what? €600 a week? Its not alot when you factor in morgages, bills, kids etc it only LOOKS big. When you take everything out it could be alot less by the time everything is paid for.

It's excessive when people are willing to, and actually are, doing the same thing for 15k less.

Why should Bus Eireann have to pay more than the private operators? If it because unions demand it, then tell the unions to lump it.

When you are choosing an electricity supplier, would you pay twice the going rate? I wouldn't and I don't want to be paying more in taxes and bus tickets either to over pay for their staff.

The union power was smashed in the Ferries, Waste and Airline industries. Time for the same in transport.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

I don't want to be paying more in taxes and bus tickets either to over pay for their staff.

You will be paying more regardless of what staff are paid or who operates the services. the nature of transport in britain and ireland is that costs go up regardless.

salonfire wrote: »

The union power was smashed in the Ferries, Waste and Airline industries. Time for the same in transport.

only in your bubble has that happened. in real life however, unions still exist in those industries.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

You will be paying more regardless of what staff are paid or who operates the services. the nature of transport in britain and ireland is that costs go up regardless.

And tell me, what is the biggest cost in Bus Eireann?

end of the road wrote: »

a

You will be paying more regardless of what staff are paid or who operates the services. the nature of transport in britain and ireland is that costs go up regardless.

And yet the private operators deliver a vastly superior intercity service (almost 24/7, hourly service, non-stop using motorways, toilets, wifi, plugs, etc.) for the same ticket price as BE Expressway and with zero subsidy.

I wouldn't mind the high wages if BE actually delivered an equally top quality service. In reality they deliver a terribly inadequate service.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

a
only in your bubble has that happened. in real life however, unions still exist in those industries.

Salon Fire has a point. I will quote you examples.

B+I Line - State owned, heavily unionised, loss making and prone to frequent industrial action. Sold off to ICG to become Irish Ferries. Old B+I Unions were tackled by management, mass redundancies followed and staff replaced by workers from abroad on different terms. Union Power smashed.

Waste collection - Previously the responsibility of CC's, heavily unionised and prone to frequent industrial action. Privatised. Some CC staff made redundant/transferred to private operator. Only one serious dispute since privatisation and that was in Greyhound waste and only in one depot. All legacy employees from DCC. Out of 78 workers 13 retained their terms and conditions based on their length of service while the rest took redundancy or a 15 to 20 percent pay cut. Legacy issues dealt with. Union power smashed.

Airline Industry - One word, Ryanair.

Infini

Grandeeod wrote: »

B+I Line - State owned, heavily unionised, loss making and prone to frequent industrial action. Sold off to ICG to become Irish Ferries. Old B+I Unions were tackled by management, mass redundancies followed and staff replaced by workers from abroad on different terms. Union Power smashed.

I should point out that this is the kind of poisonous cancer from the so called private sector supporters that leads to the likes of idiots like Trump or Brexit happening. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a bloody retarded tool as it's basically used by certain private parties to undermine peoples terms and conditions. Undermine wages by bringing in foreign workers to undercut, I mean this is the kind of crap that erodes the middle class and starts race wars.

I honestly think at this stage people only want to be jealous of peoples wages or find an excuse to be bitter or rant that its not fair on them. Really now, honestly, why does anyone here actually wanna be putting down people on a middle class wage, anything between 35~55k isn't exactly big money these days it only LOOKS like it and thats before taxes and costs. It seems to me people here only want to put down others for their own self interest and nothing more.