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Was Metro West a good idea after all?

monument

Given the M50 congestion and problems with expanding development along the M50... was Metro West a good idea after all?

Maybe not the exact route but the concept of an orbital route seems to be one which is used or planned in some cities which are good at planning (Stockholm, Copenhagen).

Or we could look at the likes of Amsterdam which went for BRT https://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/cpd/training/Seminars%20temp/BRT%20Seminar/3-David-van-der-Spek.pdf

Maybe some of the route should have kept closer to the M50 (ie with a stop at Liffey Valley)? Maybe it should have even swung inside the M50 to locations like Park West? Maybe it should have continued on to Dundrum or Sandyford then onto UCD and St Vincent's? I'm asking questions to spur debate -- these are not all firm suggestions.

And, needless to say, an orbital route would likely be behind Dart Underground or Metro North in phasing.

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Sam Russell

The Green line could run a spur to UCD and onto St Vincent's and onto Sydney Parade or Booterstown Dart line.

thomasj

On a side note.......

http://www.thejournal.ie/liffey-valley-expansion-overturned-3233899-Feb2017/

n97 mini

Maynooth and (to a lesser extent) Hazelhatch need to be electrified first. Combine that with proper bus integration (bus routes currently compete with rail, rather than integrate with it) and then see where we are.

patrickbrophy18

While highly unlikely due to the huge lack of will-power and can-do attitude in our government, I do think that Metro West was a crucial part of the puzzle. While I often cite DART underground and Metro North as key game changers, they still only cover journeys into and out of Dublin City. However, it is arguable that Metro West wasn't long enough in its previously proposed form as there should either be a heavy-rail (DART), light-rail (Metro or Luas) or BRT system covering orbital (i.e. non city bound routes) the entire way from Dun Laoghaire to Malahide. If there was a DART journey in operation in this general direction, it probably have the following stops (inclusive of those at both ends) and no level crossings:

Dun Laoghaire (DART, Commuter, Intercity, Aircoach, 46A, 75 etc.)
(3 minutes)
Deansgrange (46A, 84A, 63, 75 etc.)
(3 minutes)
Sandyford/Stillorgan (Green Luas, Aircoach, 114, 47, Finnegans etc.)
(2 minutes)
Dundrum (75, 16, 44C, Green Luas etc.)
(2 minutes)
Nutgrove (75, 116 etc.)
(3 minutes)
Butterfield
(2 minutes)
Dodder Valley
(2 minutes)
Firhouse (75 etc.)
(3 minutes)
Tallaght (Red Luas, 75, 54A etc.)
(2 minutes)
Fettercairn (Red Luas, 77A etc.)
(2 minutes)
Citywest Business Campus (Red Luas, 54A, 77A, 69, Mortons etc.)
(3 minutes)
Aungierstown
(3 minutes)
Adamstown (Western Commuter, 151, 25B etc.)
(3 minutes)
Lucan (238, 66, 25 etc.)
(3 minutes)
Coolmine (Maynooth Commuter)
(4 minutes)
Blanchardstown (37, 38, 39, 238, 70, 17A, etc.)
(4 minutes)
Ballycoolin (38, 40, 17A etc.)
(3 minutes)
Harristown (13, 4, 27B etc.)
(2 minutes)
Dublin Airport (102, 16, Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Eire Eagle, GoBe, Metro North, Airport Hopper etc.)
(2 minutes)
Swords (Swords express, 33, 41 etc.)
(2 minutes)
Malahide (Northern Commuter, 32, 42, 102)

The total journey length would be roughly 47 minutes. The above estimates are loosely based on those for Metro North with similar distances. Either-way, the numerous interchanges would feed into the profitability of an orbital route. Very likely not going to happen. Nevertheless, I could see a hypothetical journey like that taking a massive amount of cars of the road.

Atlantic Dawn

Our public transport system is 3rd world, some could argue that the costs to retrovit the city with a metro system would be prohibitive but then you look at modern housing estates we build and we can't even facilitate the cheapest of the cheap in planning basics like a bloody cycle track for each stretch of road, corrupt and incompetent planning is rampant.

hytrogen

Sam Russell wrote:

The Green line could run a spur to UCD and onto St Vincent's and onto Sydney Parade or Booterstown Dart line.

Where and how without CPO all the housing along Goatstown Road or Taney road??

Zebra3

Not sure if MW was the answer, but all that money poured into the M50 and nothing done to provide a PT alternative.

Roadhawk

I think an underground public transport service is a must in Dublin. It is clearly a better option to relieve surface congestion than having a Luas, train or bus routes.

Sam Russell

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think an underground public transport service is a must in Dublin. It is clearly a better option to relieve surface congestion than having a Luas, train or bus routes.

Elevated is another alternative, particularly away from the centre.

Even a monrail might be worth considering.

hytrogen

Sam Russell wrote:

Even a monrail might be worth considering.

I hear those things are awefully loud..

Macy0161

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

However, it is arguable that Metro West wasn't long enough in its previously proposed form as there should either be a heavy-rail (DART), light-rail (Metro or Luas) or BRT system covering orbital (i.e. non city bound routes) the entire way from Dun Laoghaire to Malahide.

Well that was always my opinion as well - it was designed to deal with the bottleneck stretch without taking out the longer journeys that bottleneck on that stretch.

Whether I'd link to Dun Laoghaire or onto Bray though, I'm not sure. Obviously there's been talk of luas going out as far as Bray, but a Metro West option might actually be a better fit.

blackwhite

hytrogen wrote: »

Where and how without CPO all the housing along Goatstown Road or Taney road??

Surely if such a development was being planned they'd take a spur between Milltown and Windy Arbour - where the line is closest to UCD already.

RobbingBandit

Still need a rail link with the airport in some fashion first rather than the suburbs. Problem being the roads to the airport from city centre either through phibsborough/glasnevin/ballymun or drumcondra/whitehall/Santy would create a gridlock nightmare while the LUAS or rail lines were being laid down.

noodler

hytrogen wrote: »

I hear those things are awefully loud..

*takes bait*

It glides as softly as a cloud..

hytrogen

blackwhite wrote:

Surely if such a development was being planned they'd take a spur between Milltown and Windy Arbour - where the line is closest to UCD already.

That's what the cycle corridor up Gledswood to Windy Arbour is specifically designed for. Together with the no 17 and 142 UCD and further Booterstown/Blackrock are highly serviced to the Luas green line.
Also you wouldn't get any gauge track along the Dodder greenway either.

blackwhite

hytrogen wrote: »

That's what the cycle corridor up Gledswood to Windy Arbour is specifically designed for. Together with the no 17 and 142 UCD and further Booterstown/Blackrock are highly serviced to the Luas green line.
Also you wouldn't get any gauge track along the Dodder greenway either.

I know we're just talking in very high-level hypotheticals - but I would have thought Bird Avenue would be the prime candidate for conversion to Luas (especially when the other way being talked of was running a Luas down Goatstown Road!)

Roadhawk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Elevated is another alternative, particularly away from the centre.

Even a monrail might be worth considering.

In my opinion, the infrastructure associated an elevated train option, such as tracks, bridges and stations, would cause obstruction in the city center. It might be ok around the suburbs but not in a city. An underground service on the other hand would not have the effects as the majority of infrastructure is underground.

I could see an elevated tier of the M50 being a good option. bottom tier (6+ lanes) could northbound while the top tier goes southbound, or vice versa.

Sam Russell

Roadhawk wrote: »

In my opinion, the infrastructure associated an elevated train option, such as tracks, bridges and stations, would cause obstruction in the city center. It might be ok around the suburbs but not in a city. An underground service on the other hand would not have the effects as the majority of infrastructure is underground.

I could see an elevated tier of the M50 being a good option. bottom tier (6+ lanes) could northbound while the top tier goes southbound, or vice versa.

Obviously, City centre would be underground and outer suburbs be elevated.

An elevated railway (metro) would be good over some of the M50.

monument

hytrogen wrote: »

Where and how without CPO all the housing along Goatstown Road or Taney road??

Or you could just put Luas along the Eastern Bypass alignment?

ClovenHoof

Ironically the Liffey Valley is a prime example of being a victim of the car culture which created it.

Metro West would have been up and running now had the Dublin Rail Plan been followed though. Liffey Valley could have grown as big as it wanted.

But Ireland is silly place.

hytrogen

blackwhite wrote:

I know we're just talking in very high-level hypotheticals - but I would have thought Bird Avenue would be the prime candidate for conversion to Luas (especially when the other way being talked of was running a Luas down Goatstown Road!)

That road was narrowed to calm traffic and stop the lads in the big mosque double parking on Fridays. The old 11 tram terminated at the Spar end from town (when Clonskeagh was considered the countryside) and was housed down by Ashton's and the Clonskeagh tropical disease hospital. Before they put the cycle lanes up Clonskeagh road I would have said yeah bring it on but all the congestion heading down Beachgodknowswhere Hill and Beaver row in the mornings from the m50 & fundrum direction clogging it up you can forget about that..

hytrogen

monument wrote:

Or you could just put Luas along the Eastern Bypass alignment?

Sorry Mon' the mob has spoken :P

strassenwo!f

I have always been in favour of utilising the huge capacity of the proposed Kildare Route/Dart Underground project to achieve both something akin to the metro west and to improve connections between the city centre and outlying areas of high population.

This is what has been done in several mainland cities. Munich and Frankfurt would be nice examples.

Thus you would have spurs north and south of the main City - Hazelhatch line, which will have huge excess capacity, for example, along (i) a Clondalkin - Tallaght route (100,000 citizens right there) and (ii) a northerly spur (or spurs) towards the Maynooth line (or beyond) and other locations in the West of the city. These could be built gradually and would eventually fulfil the function of the metro west but would primarily achieve the main aim of a rapid connection between these suburbs and the city centre.

With these spurs, the default option for passengers would be travel into the centre of the city (the most desired option of all), while people who wish to travel between locations in the West of the city would change at a suitable location to get to a place on another spur. This arrangement works well in a city like Munich: default option, you're going into the city, anything else, you change.

The current journey between Tallaght - one of Ireland's 5 largest cities - and its neighbour Dublin takes around 45 minutes on the LUAS. At the end of a spur from the Hazelhatch line, which would also fulfil its part of a metro west route, it would take around 15 minutes to central Dublin.

Compare, for example, the journey time between East Croydon (London's nearest city) and central London: around 16-18 minutes.

Grandeeod

MW as proposed was a joke. It was a glorified tram running a long distance. The only solution now for Dublin is underground. This has nothing to do with population density or any associated CBA's. It's based on the reality that the planners have built industry, homes and roads willy nilly. Surface solutions will not work in the areas that required decent PT. I believe Dublin is now unique due to the appalling planning. While we prcorastinate about DU and MN, the reality remains that we actually need an extensive underground system to deal with our road traffic and PT issues in certain areas.

strassenwo!f

I get the feeling that the OP feels the Metro West was a good idea, and broadly I agree with him. We can see cities in Europe which have spent the last half-century building up their public transport and are now in a position to start building orbital routes per se or are extending other routes to create such orbital routes. Dublin, unfortunately, is way behind such cities.

But we do know a couple of things which might help Dublin. First, there are never going to realistically be more than 8-10 DARTS per hour (in each direction) on the northern line without four-tracking, DU or no DU. Second - not directly relevant to the tunnel part of the DU project - there are never going to be more than 8-10 DARTS per hour (in each direction) on the southside line without removing all the level crossings.

So, a solution to filling the tunnel is not going to come from trains originating from the east of the City. It has to come from the West.

And there is no demand for 20-30 trains per hour between Hazelhatch and the city.

So, a possible solution is to build spurs, to serve other western suburbs (like Tallaght, Lucan, Liffey Valley, Clonsilla?) directly, and to have some turnback arrangement in the East of the city to facilitate this. This could be done gradually, to both fill the tunnel with useful trains and to fulfil a very large chunk of the requirements of the metro west.

The DU and metro west projects are closely related, if you look at the solution reached in, for example, Munich and Frankfurt, to similar urban problems.

jesus_thats_gre

Roadhawk wrote: »

I could see an elevated tier of the M50 being a good option. bottom tier (6+ lanes) could northbound while the top tier goes southbound, or vice versa.

Elevated tier being an express route with a small number of ramps while the lower level effectively remaining as it is, i.e. rat run for local traffic and short hops between suburbs.

Was a massive fan of Metro West myself. Would have spurred so much additional investment through opportunities to integrate with other aspects of public transport.

Finally, I would love a spur from Ballyogan up towards Carrickmines a bit

Purely selfish reasons.

patrickbrophy18

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Ironically the Liffey Valley is a prime example of being a victim of the car culture which created it.

Metro West would have been up and running now had the Dublin Rail Plan been followed though. Liffey Valley could have grown as big as it wanted.

But Ireland is silly place.

Funnily enough, the increase in size for Liffey Valley was refused by ABP as per the following link:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/planning-refused-for-extension-to-liffey-valley-centre-1.2971525

So, the crux of increased capacity and by extension, choice for the consumer is a lack of sustainable transport to the area.

Metro West is without a doubt one of the solutions which needs further thinking and not just Dublin Airport to Tallaght as was previously mooted. It needs to be something of an M50 for rail transport and one which competes directly with the M50 itself. Unfortunately, vested interests trumps all.

dixiefly

hytrogen wrote: »

Where and how without CPO all the housing along Goatstown Road or Taney road??

Maybe this is mad but would underground not be considered here? I think that spur would be a fantastic addition to our infrastructure and potentially take many cars off the south dublin roads.

Consonata

Something to wet the appetite...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fCjR5XvZUI

hytrogen

dixiefly wrote:

Maybe this is mad but would underground not be considered here? I think that spur would be a fantastic addition to our infrastructure and potentially take many cars off the south dublin roads.

AFAIK and willing to be corrected but the geology of Dundrum / Clonskeagh / UCD is not conducive to an underground as they are on the leading edge of the Leinster Granite and the Carboniferous Limestone merge of the Liffey basin?
Also the population density would need to significantly increase there to justify the services in those areas, like that development along Bird Avenue, Hawthorne? 55 houses with 3 itinerant lodgings in the space of a football field? What a waste imo