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60s and 70s office blocks - love them or loathe em?

JupiterKid

I'm taking this from a few posts I did in another thread - namely the destruction of much of Dublin, and to a lesser extent, our provincial cities' historic cores for what I consider to be abominations of buildings built in the name of "progress".

Aside from the failed Ballymun high rise scheme (1966-69) that was hearalded as part of the "vision for modern.Ireland" - as early as 1974 the scheme was rated as a failure - there were the architecturally inarticulate concrete and glass office blocks that were thrown up in Dublin 2 and Dublin 4 in the 1960s and 1970s. Buildings like the currently occupied Apollo House (1969), the despicable Hawkins House (1963) around the corner, nearby Liberty Hall (1965), the Setanta Centre (1975) and so many others. Some were okish - the ones clad in red brick have fared better - but most were pure sh*t. They replaced beautiful historic Georgian houses that were wantonly demolished.

At the time, the attitude was " ah sure they were built by the Brit aristocrats, get rid of them" and few stood against this orgy of destruction until the mid 1970s. By then, it was already too late really.

Now don't get me wrong, some modern buildings had merit, like the Bank of Ireland complex on Baggot Street (1972) or the controversial Central Bank (1978) but look at Wood Quay beside Christchurch for instance - an archaeological site of massive importance concreted over for the really vile bunkers of the Civic Offices (1985). The destruction continued well into the 1980s, historic buildings being razed to the ground to make way for the Stephens Green Centre (1988) and so much of North inner city Dublin didn't even get to see anything replacing the knocked Georgian houses - just derelict sites. Places like Parnell Street and North King Street were like bombed out wastelands until the 1990s urban renewal apartment boom.

What do you make of this destruction? Was it necessary or could a better way have been found? Paris and Amsterdam for instance, preserved their historic urban cores and placed their new office towers at the edge of the inner city. La Defense is a good example of this in Paris. London, on the other hand, knocked down beautiful Georgian and Victorian buildings for office blocks - all in the name of 1960s so-called "progress."

Ironicially, some of these 60s and 70s offices are now themselves getting knocked down for newer generation offices, but will they be any better? What do you think of all the modern offices and apts built in the Docklands, for instance?

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[Deleted User]

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I love the Trellick tower! I used to hang out around that area. Most of the flats in it are privately owned now though I believe, you wont get too many working class in Notting Hill!
Did you know that Ian Fleming named his villain "Goldfinger" after the architect, because he wasn't fond of his building work at all!

I can't even look at it. I know, it's become a very sought after address, especially since it's grade 2 listing. I heard that about Fleming, I think it was specifically revenge for Trellick Tower.

I'd sooner have preserved 'Nelson Mandela House' than TT.

andekwarhola

JupiterKid wrote: »

Cromwell tower, Barbican, London

I think it's a very striking building.

Then again, I spent my youth hanging around crappy 60s estates, tower blocks and precincts so I'm biased

somefeen

I can't talk about Dublin, But Cork County Hall has to go. It always seemed to me like they just wanted to build something tall and that was it. No thought put into it, just make it tall.
Connolly Hall always reminds me of a miniature version of the UN building in new york and I kind of like it.

[Deleted User]

I'm not much of a fan of Georgian Dublin, it's nice because the rest of Dublin looks so bad, but compared to what I see in Vienna everyday it's boring as ****, the facades are so basic

oppenheimer1

Zaph wrote: »

Busaras is one of the first buildings in Dublin I'd dynamite if I could. I think it's an absolute eyesore.

The problem with many of the buildings mentioned in this thread, busaras in particular, is that they haven't been properly maintained.

If busaras facade was washed, the faded panels replaced and the broken fittings repaired, it would look good.

Just as an aside: much of georgian dublin was built during a boom and consequently the standards of construction were low - even for the time period. As for architectural heritage being destroyed - I maintain a city needs to work for its inhabitants. Thats not to say every decision to demolish is correct, but to preserve everything from the past at the expense of people alive today isn't right either.

Dr Crayfish

riffmongous wrote: »

I'm not much of a fan of Georgian Dublin, it's nice because the rest of Dublin looks so bad, but compared to what I see in Vienna everyday it's boring as ****, the facades are so basic

Each to their own, I think Georgian Dublin is beautiful, wonderful buildings and squares. Vienna is beautiful but it's in Austria so not really relevant here.

wakka12

Zaph wrote: »

Tbh I'm not into architecture, so other than it being the first building of its type in Dublin I don't see anything particularly interesting about it and all I see is that unappealing facade. That in itself is reason enough to demolish it imo - just because it was the first modern building in Dublin doesn't mean that it deserves to be preserved.

I agree with you. Buildings should always be appealing, something architects have not been preoccupied with since well before world war 2. And its what non architects care most about. So theres a big disconnect there between those building the buildings, and those using them ,imo. But I do think busaras is an exception here, it is very historically significant and was an important step towards creation of Ireland's image of a new and free state. Regardless of how ugly it is, it needs to stay. It does need a cleaning and possibly some new material replacement though. Its looking a bit aged, I will admit.

wakka12

riffmongous wrote: »

I'm not much of a fan of Georgian Dublin, it's nice because the rest of Dublin looks so bad, but compared to what I see in Vienna everyday it's boring as ****, the facades are so basic

Sometimes there is a lot of beauty in simplicity. Personally I think the austere symmetry and uniformity of Georgian streets is actually one of its most charming and appealing features. It is a lot more beautiful to me than some of the over the top art nouveau buildings in Paris for instance. But theres a lot of subjective taste in architecture I suppose. None of us have the right opinion here

wakka12

Heineken House is another appalling building that simply needs to go, don't think its been mentioned yet. Absolutely kills any kind of unity or charm the area might have ..

Dr Crayfish

I really can't see how Busarus can be appreciated in any way. To me it looks the exact same as Apollo or Hawkins house, except it has a wavy bit at the front. Is it just that wavy thing that people like? It's so ugly.

threetrees

osarusan wrote: »

Blow this place up please.

Where is this? Looks really familiar but I can't place it. Somewhere west of Grand Canal basin?

wakka12

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I really can't see how Busarus can be appreciated in any way. To me it looks the exact same as Apollo or Hawkins house, except it has a wavy bit at the front. Is it just that wavy thing that people like? It's so ugly.

Its more the historical significance and how innovative it was for its time , and it was on this backwater little isle where no good architecture from, no less! It was renowned across mainland Europe after the war and thousands of architects from around the world came to visit it as it embodied many of the best aspects of the popular modernist movement at the time

I don't think many people would call it pretty in the conventional sense..

Peregrine

I would knock 95% of buildings built in Dublin between 1950 and 1985 with very few exceptions such as:

Ardoyne House
Fitzwilton House
Central Bank (Dame Street) - I loathe that it was built where it was but it's a nice enough building
Former BOI building (Baggot Street)
Irish Life building
And a couple of buildings around the National Concert Hall

Everything between Hawkins Street and Tara Street has to be nuked.

andekwarhola

riffmongous wrote: »

I'm not much of a fan of Georgian Dublin, it's nice because the rest of Dublin looks so bad, but compared to what I see in Vienna everyday it's boring as ****, the facades are so basic

My cornice gargoyle would kill your cornice gargoyle.

wakka12

Peregrine wrote: »

I would knock 95% of buildings built in Dublin between 1950 and 1985 with very few exceptions such as:

Ardoyne House
Fitzwilton House
Central Bank (Dame Street) - I loathe that it was built where it was but it's a nice enough building
Former BOI building (Baggot Street)
Irish Life building
And a couple of buildings around the National Concert Hall

Everything between Hawkins Street and Tara Street has to be nuked.

Fitzwilton house is being demolished.
Thats the plan for redevelopment
http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2674616.1465234544!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

Peregrine

And 1 Grand Canal Street Lower shows that some buildings can really be transformed with a little bit of care.

Before: https://www.google.ie/maps/place/1+Grand+Canal+Street+Lower,+Grand+Canal+Dock,+Dublin/@53.340201,-6.2429683,3a,60y,201.63h,109.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5fQGf6KYPOgrqB-qtenRGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e94641831a7:0x9c60b1e481cc9aba!8m2!3d53.3399847!4d-6.2430786!6m1!1e1

After: http://tbsstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Box-images_Public-realm-1024x762.jpg

wakka12 wrote: »

Fitzwilton house is being demolished.
Thats the plan for redevelopment
http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2674616.1465234544!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

I'm aware, yeah. I can't fault the proposed building but it was one of the few buildings of that era that I liked.

JupiterKid

Here's a few shots of 60s/70s Dublin buildings to refresh our memories.

From the vile Hawkins House (1963)

To the rather good former BOI Complex, Baggot St (1972)

Then there's the American Embassy in Ballsbridge (1964)

Apollo House, Tara Street (1969). Currently occupied by homeless activists

The rather brutalist but IMO well designed Berkeley Library, Trinity College (1967)

The Irish Life Centre (1974-78) Built in phases.

The utterly abominable Findlater House, O'Connell St (1974)

wakka12

JupiterKid wrote: »

Here's a few shots of 60s/70s Dublin buildings to refresh our memories.

From the vile Hawkins House (1963)

To the rather good former BOI Complex, Baggot St (1972)

Then there's the American Embassy in Ballsbridge (1964)

Apollo House, Tara Street (1969). Currently occupied by homeless activists

The rather brutalist but IMO well designed Berkeley Library, Trinity College (1967)

The Irish Life Centre (1974-78) Built in phases.

The utterly abominable Findlater House, O'Connell St (1974)

They're really nice imo apart from obviously Hawkins apollo and Findlater

Widdershins

Anyone who thinks they had a certain charm most likely grew up far away from them.

Maybe they did, on Only Fools and Horses.

I'd rather them than a block of skyscrapers though.

Sand

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

They are horrible. Mount St, Baggot St, Kildare St, Nassau St... the list goes on. Would have been beautiful grand streets in the past, now they're a mish mash of old buildings and ugly office blocks. How did they let it happen? I work in one, it's horrible, no air, bad architecture. We have some offices in a lovely Georgian Building on Merrion Square and it's a way more pleasant and comfortable place to work than our ugly office block.

I cant speak for your current office block but I've worked in some of those old converted offices in Georgian buildings. Nice facade, but terrible places to work compared to a purpose built modern office. Absolute saunas in the summer.

Dr Crayfish

Findlater house, lol, the szzzdate of it, never really noticed it much. And to think they put it on what used to be our main street. I like the library though and the embassy.

JupiterKid

threetrees wrote: »

Where is this? Looks really familiar but I can't place it. Somewhere west of Grand Canal basin?

Shannon House, Limerick, built 1972.

Dr Crayfish

Sand wrote: »

I cant speak for your current office block but I've worked in some of those old converted offices in Georgian buildings. Nice facade, but terrible places to work compared to a purpose built modern office. Absolute saunas in the summer.

The ones we have now were recently refurbished. I remember last summer I was envious of the people based there as at least they could open their huge windows. A lot of the ugly buildings we're talking about don't have windows that can be opened for some reason.

darkpagandeath

Stigura wrote: »

Ye had to have been there, man .....

Peregrine

JupiterKid wrote: »

The utterly abominable Findlater House, O'Connell St (1974)

It was redeveloped to a Holiday Inn Express. Nothing special but several orders better than before. Still the same building.

JupiterKid

Indeed, quite a few of the 1960s and 70s monstrosities have been reclad/refurbished and look better. I can think of one example near the Shelbourne Hotel. And then some are being knocked down completely. No loss.

What of the more recent boom era office/apartment buildings? Do they look well? Will they date well?

Dr Crayfish

Jesus, those pics sugarman posted. How the hell did a capital city let an area get that decrepit? It looks like Dresden in 1945 ffs. Were we really that poor? It's right by Grafton St and St Stephen's green and a stonesthrow from Government buildings!

newacc2015

Most of these buildings have been flatted, are being flatted or the outside refinished. Findlater house is now a Holiday Inn.

The Passport office is being replaced by this. Ironically An Taisce who object to most tall developments are generally opposed to the redevelopment of brutalist buildings.

This

Is being replaced with this :

Apollo House, Hawkins House, Liberty Hall etc are all scheduled for replacement. I think alot of redeveloped buildings like One Molesworth look amazing, they just look bad as they are height constraint. If they were higher, they would not look at awkward. In 5 years, there will be little from the 60s/70s left

NYC has built some amazing skyscrapers in recent years. I like the Hearst Tower

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQD2owOHwIffQwbHmEo-Qo4D6eejasSvFTYvgIYDOZArf0FZTKsfY6gsZRRsi_E5eRBgAM

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQD2owOHwIffQwbHmEo-Qo4D6eejasSvFTYvgIYDOZArf0FZTKsfY6gsZRRsi_E5eRBgAM

wakka12

newacc2015 wrote: »

Most of these buildings have been flatted, are being flatted or the outside refinished. Findlater house is now a Holiday Inn.

The Passport office is being replaced by this. Ironically An Taisce who object to most tall developments are generally opposed to the redevelopment of brutalist buildings.

This

Is being replaced with this :

Apollo House, Hawkins House, Liberty Hall etc are all scheduled for replacement. I think alot of redeveloped buildings like One Molesworth look amazing, they just look bad as they are height constraint. If they were higher, they would not look at awkward. In 5 years, there will be little from the 60s/70s left

NYC has built some amazing skyscrapers in recent years. I like the Hearst Tower

That is not the passport office. That is another redevelopment going on across the street from it.http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2875721.1479660537!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg
This is how the passport office will look when done

wakka12

A huge block of 60/70's buildings are also being demolished on Nassau Street.
Current

Future redevelopment

Good riddance