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VW emissions software update - disaster

Golfgorfield

So i own a 2010 Golf GTD with DSG.
I received the letter to have the car made legal again for arguments sake amd decided to let my vw dealer do ot when in for service.
Its a 60,000 mile very well maintained with all main dealer stamps.
The car pulls like a train through the gears and when in sport mode it holds the revs in the high torque band brilliantly and is a joy to drive.

Well it was.......

After the software upgrade ive driven it over the weekend and it is certainly not the car it was, it feels much slower and its much more revvy and much less torquey.... in sport mode it doesnt hold the revs like it did and the dsg has become a bit dopey, theres also a slight vibration/wobble under acceleration at low speed which has appeared.

Has anyone any experience of this situation?
Im raging i got it done at all now.
I have phoned VW who stated they guarantee the car should feel exactly the same... just like they guaranteed all their engines were within emissions laws........

Has anyone noticed any differences after they had theirs done?

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Golfgorfield

So the latest update.

VW claim my car was "chipped" when i brought it into them thats why i feel its slow now.
Even though when i bought the car it felt just like the other GTDs i test drove, i would certainly have noticed if it was chipped. I spoke to the previous owner, he assured me it was standard.

I accepted their explanation as i am planning on remapping myself now anyway.
However when i asked them for the technical report they did, they told me they dont give out that information.

So they updated my software, then had a VW technician come down to do a further inspection, all of which was sent to VW HQ which they have ruled the car is performing up top manufacturer guidelines.
And as the owner of the car im not entitled to have a report on their investigations and findings.

It angers me they are now refusing to provide me with a report of what they did/investigated/results.
Im literally to take their word for it.

Im done with them now, my car is heading to Daltons asap for some actual genuine VW care.

This has ended my dealings with any VW dealers or their company, its my last ever VW and thats for sure.

ANYONE THAT GETS THE LETTER PUT IT IN THE BIN AND DONT RISK THE DROP IN PERFORMANCE.

Wonda-Boy

Buffman wrote: »

An extra hour in bed sounds a lot more desirable than playing russian roulette with your engine performance alright. Good decision.

Yeah, absolutely. And mine is the higher 180BHP or whatever, so I am happy currently with performance.

Cee-Jay-Cee

George Dalton wrote: »

Or maybe just realise that you've done something a bit stupid and take the steps needed to reverse the outcome.

If people just used their brain for 10 seconds they would realise this is a no win scenario.

Consider the following proposal:
You give me €50.

The very best outcome you can expect from this transaction is that I give you back €50

But there is no guarantee that I will give you back €50, it might be €49, it might be €45, but I won't tell you in advance, you'll just have to wait and see.

Who in their right mind would accept that deal? Nobody. And yet people are going to VW dealers in their droves to have this "fix" carried out.

I just can't get my head around it.....

That's actually a quite complicated way of looking at it. It's much simpler, if this 'fix' does nothing to effect performance or economy and merely brings emissions in line with EU regulations then it would have been done at the factory from the start but it does effect performance and economy and people are now finding that out.

A friend of mine asked for my opinion on getting his Passat done and I asked him if he was happy with the way the car currently drives and performs and he said yes so I asked why would you do anything that will most likely change that?

VW cannot possibly claim that a completely different ECU map which changes emissions is not going to effect anything else i.e. Performance or economy...yet they do.

Buffman

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Was due to get my 2012 Highline done in the morning, but I think I will have an extra hour in bed now after reading this stuff.

An extra hour in bed sounds a lot more desirable than playing russian roulette with your engine performance alright. Good decision.

Wonda-Boy

Was due to get my 2012 Highline done in the morning, but I think I will have an extra hour in bed now after reading this stuff.

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benny79

Buffman wrote: »

Have a read of the comments below this article and see what you think then.

Well over 100 recent comments there with various detrimental consequences across most VAG models. I know some VAG fanboys here will demand empirical evidence of any issue, but the fact remains that VAG are proven liars regarding these emission issues. So what makes anyone think they'll be honest about any 'fix' related issues now?

I think this chap summed it up nicely.[/QUOT

Cheers Buffman, God thats unbelievable stuff! how is this not making the news!! and how are VW getting away with it! They can sing for my car cause I won't be going near them..

Noccy_Mondy

I got my 09 GT 140 done back in November. Was in for an unrelated issue, they kind of got me on the hop, so I got it done, without reading into it. Thankfully, I notice no difference to the way it drives. That said, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't get it done... if it ain't broke.....

Vicxas

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Of course that is my problem. Have you read the full thread?

Gave myself a Tl;DR alright. :P

zilog_jones

Auto Motor und Sport did a before and after test with a 2.0 TDI Amarok (Google Translate makes it mostly readable):

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/vw-diesel-update-amarok-leistung-gleich-gut-verbrauch-leicht-erhoeht-10551733.html

They noticed no significant difference with performance, except fuel consumption increased by about 0.5 l/100km. Also NOx was not any lower in real world driving.

Of course the software update was only required to make the cars pass the NEDC test (on a rolling road, in a lab) without any discernible cheating - it by no means had to make the car perform any better under any other conditions. If these results are consistent among all the recalled VWs, even from a purely environmental perspective it won't really fix anything and is bound to make something worse for you - either with performance or fuel consumption.

Golfgorfield

Vicxas wrote: »

The problem is, what proof do you have the car is down on power and pull?

Of course that is my problem. Have you read the full thread?

Vicxas

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Current situation is the car is now back in the main dealer, they have provided a high spec replacement car and have told me they are going to fully investigate and test drive the car.

the test drive will as i pointed out be pointless as they have nothing to compare it to....

I've a feeling im going to be disappointed, but im determined to put up a hell of a fight for some kind of resolution.

The problem is, what proof do you have the car is down on power and pull?

Moanin

My 2011 A6 TDI was done and there's no difference whatsoever....

Buffman

benny79 wrote: »

So what is everyones general consensus get the update done or leave well alone?

Have a read of the comments below this article and see what you think then.

Well over 100 recent comments there with various detrimental consequences across most VAG models. I know some VAG fanboys here will demand empirical evidence of any issue, but the fact remains that VAG are proven liars regarding these emission issues. So what makes anyone think they'll be honest about any 'fix' related issues now?

ml100 wrote: »

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/8-reports-of-volkswagen-tiguans-losing-power-after-ea189-emissions-fix/

I think this chap summed it up nicely.

Mike7777 2 days ago
If you haven't yet taken your car in for the emissions fix, do not do it. There's nothing wrong with it now and you don't have to have it done. If you do there is a very strong likelihood that you will have problems or reduced performance and you will not be believed that there is a link, and you'll be on your own. Mega stress and expense will quickly follow.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

EU type approval has similar emissions tests for NOx and particulates as the US, but not as stringent. I believe the German Federal Motor Transport Authority declared that VW were cheating on the NEDC emissions tests and declared a recall, which started the EU-wide recall. VW are liable for some sort of penalty for using a "defeat device" to pass NEDC tests, but I don't think anything's happened there (motor industry have too much influence on the EU, conflict of interests, etc.).

The big difference between here and the US are the legal systems - punitive damages and class action suits exist over there, whereas they do not here. VW saw taking back cars or financially compensating owners as the cheaper solution in the US.

VW also believed that software updates could achieve Euro 5 emissions legitimately, whereas US EPA emissions tests would require more significant/expensive modification to the cars - another reason that made just taking the cars off the road altogether a more viable option.

I was close enough!

I did read that the fact they have initiated a recall in the EU and that that recall addresses the issue it means they are less likely to be sued as its just a recall like any other recall which happens all the time.

They should have to pay a penalty to the EU for cheating though, but its very unlikely that owners will get anything in the EU since the issue is "fixed" once you get the software update.

The only way an owner will get anything in the EU is if they can prove significant loss of value as a direct result of the cheat. I'd say that will be almost impossible to prove.

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

EU type approval has similar emissions tests for NOx and particulates as the US, but not as stringent. I believe the German Federal Motor Transport Authority declared that VW were cheating on the NEDC emissions tests and declared a recall, which started the EU-wide recall. VW are liable for some sort of penalty for using a "defeat device" to pass NEDC tests, but I don't think anything's happened there (motor industry have too much influence on the EU, conflict of interests, etc.).

The big difference between here and the US are the legal systems - punitive damages and class action suits exist over there, whereas they do not here. VW saw taking back cars or financially compensating owners as the cheaper solution in the US.

VW also believed that software updates could achieve Euro 5 emissions legitimately, whereas US EPA emissions tests would require more significant/expensive modification to the cars - another reason that made just taking the cars off the road altogether a more viable option.

bear1

bazz26 wrote: »

After 6 pages of this thread do you really still have to ask that question?

Literally laughed my hole off :pac:

Wheeliebin30

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

So why bother with the fix at all????

KCross

bear1 wrote: »

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

kay 9

Ze Germans have everyone fooled with everything from their cars to the eu. :pac:

bazz26

After 6 pages of this thread do you really still have to ask that question?

benny79

So what is everyones general consensus get the update done or leave well alone?

After hearing of Op's issues I think I'll Leave mine or can you ask them for a print out before and after? but they will hardly do that if they know there's issues with an update.

I have a long commute to work and I dont want to get an update that will cost me money as the fuel efficiency wont be as good!

Special Circumstances

bear1 wrote: »

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

"VARE IST YOUR PROOF!!"

bear1

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

robtri

Golfgorfield wrote: »

So the main dealer has phoned me to say they have checked the car and all is 100% no faults and its fine.

He told me its not down on power at all, i asked was it tested on a rolling road, his reply "no, one of the lads drove it he said its not down on power" i politely asked does this lad know power outputs just from driving a car, his reply was no but hes driven loads of GTD's.

Hes never driven mine though, before and after the update so a drive wont tell anyone anything.

Ive since phoned VW Ireland and was told they will ask for a tech report and test drive the car again... ff sake.

My last words with the "customer service agent, who didnt know what BHP meant" was I am not collecting my car until im satisfied its performing as it was pre update, as per your letter.

Her reply was as expected "thats not something i can comment on" (she said this about 20 times in 10mins.

Anyone wanna buy a 110BHP golf GTD????

what pre update information about your car do you have?
I assume you have a pre update rolling road test and results to compare to if you are asking for an after test rolling road test.

what is your basis for saying its down on power?

Toyotafanboi

Golfgorfield wrote: »

So the main dealer has phoned me to say they have checked the car and all is 100% no faults and its fine.

He told me its not down on power at all, i asked was it tested on a rolling road, his reply "no, one of the lads drove it he said its not down on power" i politely asked does this lad know power outputs just from driving a car, his reply was no but hes driven loads of GTD's.

Hes never driven mine though, before and after the update so a drive wont tell anyone anything.

Ive since phoned VW Ireland and was told they will ask for a tech report and test drive the car again... ff sake.

My last words with the "customer service agent, who didnt know what BHP meant" was I am not collecting my car until im satisfied its performing as it was pre update, as per your letter.

Her reply was as expected "thats not something i can comment on" (she said this about 20 times in 10mins.

Anyone wanna buy a 110BHP golf GTD????

You've contradicted yourself a lot there.

You ask was the car tested on a rolling road to check if it was down on power, but what use would a retrospective rolling road test be with no pre update results. You'l just make yourself look irrational requesting unreasonable things like this which will only get the backs up of the people you are dealing with.

You asked did the technician know power outputs purely from driving a car as if this is not possible, but you are claiming yourself that you can tell from "feeling" alone that it is?

You say a drive won't tell anyone anything anyway, but a drive has told you everything you think you know.

You need to at least not contradict yourself so badly if you are going to fight this.

You need to focus your efforts. Go to 2x independent rolling road operators and get 2 sets of figures for your car. See if both figures are consistent with one another and considerably removed from manufacturers quoted specs (adjusting for 3x years of wear and tear).

It might cost you a few quid, but if you're serious about pursuing this, 2 independent assessments of your cars power, printed in black and white will give you a good basis to create attention where you want it.

Whether it be right or wrong, going back to your dealer and saying my butt dyno says the car is a bit slower not will simply not get you anywhere. It could be the placebo effect from yours or their point of view. You must surely understand that fact even if you chose not to accept it?

Special Circumstances

As the original version of that graphic shows, the dyno'd car was well down right where it counts for day to day driving.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AII8a0cFXX1v3Qs&cid=B6B727C7F19316F7&id=B6B727C7F19316F7%212722&parId=B6B727C7F19316F7%21104&o=OneUp

0-60 and mpg are all well and good but if the OP's car has been castrated to the same extent in the same rpm range... it's never gonna feel the same. There's no better way appreciating the power of a good car than to take a spin in a less powerful one.... but it looks like VW have given the OP that experience without the prospect of sitting back into his old "powerful" car.

Remap it to f**k and get the EGR and DPF deleted while you're at it.

jones

My 2 litre Diesel 110bhp Golf has to get the emissions fix i've a letter from local VW dealer to call in "whenever suits". The car is 2009 highline model and in great condition and have never had any issues with it. I didnt even think about the software fix negatively affecting the performance of the car. I thought all along this cheat only kicked in when the engine detected the testing machine being hooked up to it and regulated the engine accordingly? Am i wrong? I was going to get the fix done at the next service. Given the age of the car i'll be changing it in the next year regardless

gctest50

Golfgorfield wrote: »

What is this???

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AII8a0cFXX1v3Qs&cid=B6B727C7F19316F7&id=B6B727C7F19316F7%212722&parId=B6B727C7F19316F7%21104&o=OneUp

from

Buffmans post here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=102546685

ABC101

Golfgorfield wrote: »

ABC101 wrote: »

Yeah... I see what you mean by paying top dollar... looking on CarsIreland there is a 2010 GTD for 15.5K.
Damn right you are pi**ed off.

Yep they're not cheap!
Mine is DSG with heated leather, adj suspension, satnav, climate, sensors and a Full main dealer history!

I paid less than that but its still huge money, albeit they're a fantastic car to drive, sorry were!!

Well, the only thing I can advise is that you attempt to measure the car against what it is supposed to do, i.e. a rough 0 to 60 test etc, fuel economy and so on. It could well be a slower car, but perhaps not too much slower?
However if you are fully certain that it is not the same car and you value a bit of performance then you are either looking at trading it in for another updated VW which is updated and sporty or else taking a hit and going for a different make.
Nearly all manufacturers have their lemons and trying to get a car which is reliable is a bit like Russian Roulette.
TBH, I am a bit surprised you went for a VW given the scandal over emissions, but perhaps that's just me being a crusty old cynic.

Golfgorfield

gctest50 wrote: »

fairly dismal

What is this???