Boundary Extension for City?

According to a KK, FF TD a decision has been delayed until July or August now.

Its clearly supports the change, if it didn't it would be published by now....

Jambo

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

According to a KK, FF TD a decision has been delayed until July or August now.

Its clearly supports the change, if it didn't it would be published by now....

Have it from a good source that decisions on this and all other remaining boundary reviews won't be announced until mid 2017, any changes will then have to be brought before the Oireachtas.

Simon Coveney was on Radio 1 on Fri Morning and was singing praises for Waterford and his wish to see the city double in size in the next 20 to 40 years, almost sounded like the decision will be to move the boundary.

Jambo wrote: »

Have it from a good source that decisions on this and all other remaining boundary reviews won't be announced until mid 2017, any changes will then have to be brought before the Oireachtas.

Simon Coveney was on Radio 1 on Fri Morning and was singing praises for Waterford and his wish to see the city double in size in the next 20 to 40 years, almost sounded like the decision will be to move the boundary.

Yeah, that’s really the impression you get from the actions of this government that they want Waterford City to grow and develop.

If you want somewhere to grow and develop you actually do something concrete to make that happen not stripe it of services and ignore every single issue that needs government attention.

TheQuietFella wrote: »

There was never any signs of solidarity from the latter!

Who would compensate kilkenny for the loss of revenue from the industry around Waterford port certainly kilkenny would loose big time. Padraig coffey started this because he wanted to widen his vote, as regards the hold up are they not going through the written public submissions that were sent in really Waterford only wont a boundry extension is because the revenue is involved with Bellview port.

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

Who would compensate kilkenny for the loss of revenue from the industry around Waterford port certainly kilkenny would loose big time. Padraig coffey started this because he wanted to widen his vote, as regards the hold up are they not going through the written public submissions that were sent in really Waterford only wont a boundry extension is because the revenue is involved with Bellview port.

I believe Belview is not included in the plan....could be wrong but there was a report a month or two ago saying the Port would not be part of it.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I believe Belview is not included in the plan....could be wrong but there was a report a month or two ago saying the Port would not be part of it.

Find that hard to believe, Kilkenny will loose millions. As regards the three rivers both Wexford, kilkenny , were bitterly disappointed with Waterford.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You appear to assume that new businesses would open in Kilkenny (or other towns) in the first place.
Larger businesses will gravitate to the more populous areas so they have a pool of labour. That labour pool is not just Waterford city, but also labour from surrounding counties, hence the region benefits as the majority of earnings will be spent locally rather than where those people work.

That raises the question whether or not the boundary extension would make Waterford more attractive to industries than it is at present.
I believe it would, but only after it happened would we know for sure.

As regards in the south east where is the highest property prices where people wont to live not in Waterford

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

Who would compensate kilkenny for the loss of revenue from the industry around Waterford port certainly kilkenny would loose big time. Padraig coffey started this because he wanted to widen his vote, as regards the hold up are they not going through the written public submissions that were sent in really Waterford only wont a boundry extension is because the revenue is involved with Bellview port.

There are two factories in Belview port, just two.

azimuth17

It is said in political circles that the Boundary Commission report is on minister Coveney's desk and that it proposes to grant some sort of boundary extension. There are various rumours to its extent. In the normal course Waterford City council would have to compensate Kilkenny Co Co for any loss of rates on a declining scale for at least 10 years. It is possible that government funding might also be used. I don't expect to see this report being published any time soon.

BBM77 wrote: »

There are two factories in Belview port, just two.

Do ye not pay property tax in Waterford probably not see one hundred forty high end jobs announced for kilkenny this morning. As regards Bellview port you obviously have not a clue the the infestructure that kilkenny co council put into it.

Jambo

BBM77 wrote: »

There are two factories in Belview port, just two.

Aside from Smartply, ITW, Glanbia,Port of Waterford there's a mass of ratable land and very large premises that all bring in a lot of money for KK Co Co.

I am sure I read a figure of €80m p/a mentioned somewhere.

Irishlad2014

Yes, this will not be effected in the proposed boundary extension. The Port of Waterford will remain as part of Co KK

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

Do ye not pay property tax in Waterford probably not see one hundred forty high end jobs announced for kilkenny this morning. As regards Bellview port you obviously have not a clue the the infestructure that kilkenny co council put into it.

I actually have no idea what you are talking about in the first line.

You are right though I have no clue what the infrastructure Kilkenny Co Co paid for. So exactly what was the infrastructure Kilkenny Co Co paid for then, fill me in?

Jambo wrote: »

Aside from Smartply, ITW, Glanbia,Port of Waterford there's a mass of ratable land and very large premises that all bring in a lot of money for KK Co Co.

I am sure I read a figure of €80m p/a mentioned somewhere.

€80m p/a was said alright. Seriously though does it seem realistic to you that €80m p/a in rates is generated in the area in question?

BBM77 wrote: »

€80m p/a was said alright. Seriously though does it seem realistic to you that €80m p/a in rates is generated in the area in question?

No way €80 million per annum is generated there. Perhaps €8 million but even that sounds very high to me.

azimuth17 wrote: »

It is said in political circles that the Boundary Commission report is on minister Coveney's desk and that it proposes to grant some sort of boundary extension. There are various rumours to its extent. In the normal course Waterford City council would have to compensate Kilkenny Co Co for any loss of rates on a declining scale for at least 10 years. It is possible that government funding might also be used. I don't expect to see this report being published any time soon.

The whole rate argument is just a red herring, Kilkenny will not be left out of pocket in principal however what it might do is shine a light on the profit making in S Kilkenny and how the bad decisions taken in Kilkenny CC offices could have a wider impact on Kilkenny as a whole because they have been more less shifting funds from S Kilkenny to a other area's for years.

Jambo

road_high wrote: »

No way €80 million per annum is generated there. Perhaps €8 million but even that sounds very high to me.

Actually I was way way off the mark, here is the correct figure taken from Kilkenny CoCo's Submission to the Boundary Commission

7.3.2 Commercial Rates – Area of Interest

There are currently 98 properties on the property valuation listing in the Area of Interest with a total rate demand for 2015 of €1.7m.

In addition there are a further eight properties to be valued by the
Valuation Office with an estimated annual rates income of €400k. A number of these properties will be added to the listing for 2016 and the remainder will be added for 2017. This will bring the total annual rate demand in the Area of Interest to €2.1m from 2017 onwards.

The current level of strike off for vacancy/non‐rateable properties in the Area of Interest is €103k per annum bringing the total net rates income to €2.0m per annum, which represents 13% of the total rates income for Kilkenny.

Was speaking to a local TD last year and he was telling me how apparently in debt WCC are, can't remember off hand how much but it was tens of millions and this was the nub of the issue, nothing to do with "balanced regional development" or the other such fantasies that are bandied around here like confetti.

road_high wrote: »

Was speaking to a local TD last year and he was telling me how apparently in debt WCC are, can't remember off hand how much but it was tens of millions and this was the nub of the issue, nothing to do with "balanced regional development" or the other such fantasies that are bandied around here like confetti.

All councils are in debit after a revaluation of assets just after annual spending was submitted in for 2016 and Goverment then gave most councils additional funding. Things like phone masts value's were revised down etc. thus a big drop in income from them.

jelutong

Irishlad2014 wrote: »

Yes, this will not be effected in the proposed boundary extension. The Port of Waterford will remain as part of Co KK

Read post 71.

azimuth17

nothing to do with "balanced regional development" or the other such fantasies that are bandied around here like confetti.
As a newcomer to this, it is obvious there is a who's who of KK versus Wat voices just from reading the posts. I would suggest that Waterford city is in pursuit of balanced urban development on the Ferrybank side where the city boundary originally stretched somewhat further than it did today. It seems self evident that such more circular city is a desirable thing because of proximity to services and such like. If that is the case and the road-high like posters on this forum will hardly accept it, then Waterford city would do better as a consequence and that would be better for the people in all counties who live around it. It is not an accident that Simon Coveney's take on a review of the Spatial Strategy(for all its faults) suggests that Waterford city needs to do better. It is also of interest (see www.hefse.com) in pursuit of the 24/7 cath lab situation, which clearly demands balanced regional development, that Brian Cody and the Kilkenny hurlers are to be found supporting that cause. "Dublin is eating Ireland" the headlines shout, and it might be a better response if WAT and KK thought about how that impacts on us all?

blue note

Would it not be fairer for those rates to be spent on Waterford anyway? Those people are served by Waterford, not Kilkenny. So currently they are paying rates, the majority of which are being spent elsewhere (Kilkenny).

I certainly know I'd be fairly annoyed if I had to sign a cheque each year that was going to be used for another town, when my town is in dire need of investment.

azimuth17

It might better be spent on the area in which it is collected. It is interesting that the rates from Belview business represent nearly one seventh of KKCC rate take. That county always had, other than agricultural land which was derated in 1977, a very low commercial rate base. They spent very little in south Kilkenny and especially on the immediate hinterland of Waterford city over the years. I cannot remember even a single council house being built. Whether or which, a legal process has been completed. An independent boundary commission established by the Minister for the Environment (or Local Government as he was previously known) has reported and its recommendations will have to be examined. Who can say in this country of ours, where that might lead us?

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

It might better be spent on the area in which it is collected.

if only... but that never happens anywhere...

robtri

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All councils are in debit after a revaluation of assets just after annual spending was submitted in for 2016 and Goverment then gave most councils additional funding. Things like phone masts value's were revised down etc. thus a big drop in income from them.

only one I could find.. its from 2014

http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/2884101/original/?width=630&version=2884101

azimuth17 wrote: »

It might better be spent on the area in which it is collected. It is interesting that the rates from Belview business represent nearly one seventh of KKCC rate take. That county always had, other than agricultural land which was derated in 1977, a very low commercial rate base. They spent very little in south Kilkenny and especially on the immediate hinterland of Waterford city over the years. I cannot remember even a single council house being built. Whether or which, a legal process has been completed. An independent boundary commission established by the Minister for the Environment (or Local Government as he was previously known) has reported and its recommendations will have to be examined. Who can say in this country of ours, where that might lead us?

Shock horror a county spending rates it collects as it sees fit...I don't comment on how or where Waterford council spends their rates because quite frankly I don't care because that's their right as an entitity to do as they see fit. Funny how they have a far higher debt burden when the populations are not a whole lot different despite the "very low commercial rates base". Waterford does not sound like a very enticing prospect if I was looking for increased services in south KK...jesus, is it really any of your business where it is spent? And have you detailed evidence as to how they spend every cent or is the usual anecdotes and hearsay?

robtri

have WCC detailed what additional services they will provide ??

azimuth17 wrote: »

nothing to do with "balanced regional development" or the other such fantasies that are bandied around here like confetti.
As a newcomer to this, it is obvious there is a who's who of KK versus Wat voices just from reading the posts. I would suggest that Waterford city is in pursuit of balanced urban development on the Ferrybank side where the city boundary originally stretched somewhat further than it did today. It seems self evident that such more circular city is a desirable thing because of proximity to services and such like. If that is the case and the road-high like posters on this forum will hardly accept it, then Waterford city would do better as a consequence and that would be better for the people in all counties who live around it. It is not an accident that Simon Coveney's take on a review of the Spatial Strategy(for all its faults) suggests that Waterford city needs to do better. It is also of interest (see www.hefse.com) in pursuit of the 24/7 cath lab situation, which clearly demands balanced regional development, that Brian Cody and the Kilkenny hurlers are to be found supporting that cause. "Dublin is eating Ireland" the headlines shout, and it might be a better response if WAT and KK thought about how that impacts on us all?

Any of that so called regional dimension and vision is going to be set fire with petrol if this proposal were to go ahead and will absolutely push Kilkenny away from Waterford and the southeast
region for good. I really can't empathise with the notion that moving a county boundary against the wishes of the vast majority of said county will benefit everyone. Waterford can and will do well working in the existing boundaries.

Coveney is using Waterford in apolitical game against JP Phelan who is a firm supporter of Leo Varadkar. Rather than do the hard thing and invest real money in Waterford (which he'll be wanting that for Cork in any case), he's trying to get Waterford support on board by recommending a cheap appeasement tactic with added lip service.

*Notsure what the Cath lab campaign has to do with this but I doubt you're going to muster much support for that in Kilkenny by lopping a chunk off it. St. Lukes which serves most of Carlow/KK area isn't part of the WUH group and appears to be working fine with St. James's hospital- the Kilkenny hurlers were actually approached to support the campaign as is their right- doesn't mean they know more than Dr. Herity on the matter.

It's far from as simple as Coveney, who has nothing to do with Kilkenny, simply deciding this should happen. Kilkenny as an entity, politically and economically rightly has a huge say over what would happen. If someone wanted to lop a chunk of my driveway for instance, I'd like to think in the democracy we live I'd have a far ole say in deciding yay or nay.