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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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Seanachai

end of the road wrote: »

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

it would be illegal for db or IE to go out in sympathy with bus eireann yes. however, if an issue arose that effected the 3 at the same time, then that would likely be perfectly legal.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You make it sound as if the unions would of accepted those 3 plans......

On a side note, sooner CIE is split up the better but it will never happen .

CIE was split up. bus eireann, dublin bus, and irish rail were once simply CIE.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Whole thing is rotten to the core with work practices no private company would tolerate.

Manufactured artificial overtime, abseentism, well above average sick leave.

Time to call these guys out and stop the rot.

some private transport companies rely on overtime as well. for example on the uk railway where private companies run the services, overtime and even rest day working can be relied on, in some cases quite a lot. of course the staff benefit in return as they get paid but when it goes wrong it goes wrong. the abseentism and well above average sick leave that is supposibly happening in bus eireann are only claims.

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

They would also likely to have a more sensible rates of overtime and absenteeism.

Public sector absenteeism is almost double the rate of the private sector, and I believe BE absenteeism is higher than the Public Sector average.

loyatemu

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

I don't disagree what people should be paid a fair wage, but how do you propose to determine what that is for differing professions? In the private sector that's largely market driven and the private sector pays bus drivers a lot less than BE (for whatever reasons).

n97 mini

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company.

Not a relevant comparison. The programmer probably spent longer in education and is working in a skilled job for a private company who doesn't get any taxpayer money. He/she also wouldn't get the same perks. Typically there is no money paid for overtime (time in lieu instead) and their pension is their own problem, to name but two.

[Deleted User]

On the radio the other morning, a newspaper article in a UK paper was mentioned which broke down the BE sick leave by county or something but I can't find the article. Ring any bells for anyone?

n97 mini

Seanachai wrote: »

It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

Are you a supporter of communism, as even under communism people in higher skilled jobs get paid more.

n97 mini wrote: »

Not a relevant comparison. The programmer probably spent longer in education and is working in a skilled job for a private company who doesn't get any taxpayer money. He/she also wouldn't get the same perks. Typically there is no money paid for overtime (time in lieu instead) and their pension is their own problem, to name but two.

Time in lieu for a programmer!! Haha, I wish. 60+ hour weeks and no overtime is the reality of the 75k programmer.

Brendan Bendar

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

I'm afraid that the way things operate senachi,and that's the way it always will operate.

L1011

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

Supply and demand. The average person can drive a bus after a relatively short training period - there is very little risk of a shortage if you provide training. The average person would be kicked out of a programming job within a week.

The programmer also won't be getting GP cover for one CIE benefit. Also, there'll be no overtime options and likely a 60+ hour week as stated meaning they're actually on less per hour than the bus driver.

Infini

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

This is spot on tbh. If anything the media are spreading this kind of crap to make money on stories while people get bitter and petty. Honestly it gets to the point that people should simply just stop going on about it. Strikes happen people are more than entitled to defend their jobs and livelyhoods from forces trying to undermine them and lessen their worth.

marvin80

The papers do sensationalize these stories a bit but it's not surprising people get annoyed when they see bus drivers for example in BE are on 60k a year.

I went to college, got my degree and have a job in the private sector for the last 8 years. I'm no-where near 60k a year and if I want to get it I'll have to work damn hard for it.
I have a pay-review every year - sometimes it doesn't matter how hard I've worked, I'm still not guaranteed any sort of an increase.

So when I see bus drivers, luas drivers etc.. looking for an increase, and not necessarily offering more productiveness as a result, and then threaten to strike to get their way I find it hard to have any sympathy for them.

Might be no harm to let Bus Eireann go to the wall and start from scratch again.
Other workers in similar positions might appreciate how good they have it.

Spanish Eyes

Does anyone know how much of the country will be busless when BE goes on strike? I heard that rural services will not be affected.

Do private operators cover all the the Expressway routes now? Or are some of the so called Expressway routes meandering all over the place still. If so the word Expressway is a misnomer.

But I don't know, so I'm asking.

Brendan Bendar

Infini2 wrote: »

This is spot on tbh. If anything the media are spreading this kind of crap to make money on stories while people get bitter and petty. Honestly it gets to the point that people should simply just stop going on about it. Strikes happen people are more than entitled to defend their jobs and livelyhoods from forces trying to undermine them and lessen their worth.

Unfortunately it doesn't entitle them to drive a company into bankruptcy.

In commercial operations there needs to be a situation where money taken in is equal or more than money spent.

This is not happening in this situation and unfortunately it's either reduce the cost base or charge more to the consumer, which is not a runner competitively speaking.

Artificially jacking up wages above industry norms does nobody any good and adopting work practices and conditions which are blatantly not cost effective cannot be tolerated given the losses sustained.

Sooner people realise this and come to sensible outcomes the better for all.

Seanachai

n97 mini wrote: »

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company.

Not a relevant comparison. The programmer probably spent longer in education and is working in a skilled job for a private company who doesn't get any taxpayer money. He/she also wouldn't get the same perks. Typically there is no money paid for overtime (time in lieu instead) and their pension is their own problem, to name but two.

It's not just taxpayer subsidised companies, it's the workplace in general. Even in technician roles or the trades, there seems to a narrative that unless you're super qualified or make bespoke furniture you don't deserve a decent wage, you're supposed to be glad of anything at all. I have friends that came home from overseas with the hope of making a go of a life here again with the 'recovery' only to find that while they could get work, the pay was so lousy that they were taking a major step back down the ladder. I don't begrudge people who are qualified good money and conditions, I just don't see why somebody who works hard in a job that doesn't require great academic ability should be relegated to low income. Also I'm not a communist, that a while other kettle of fish, especially in the last while.

Seanachai

marvin80 wrote: »

The papers do sensationalize these stories a bit but it's not surprising people get annoyed when they see bus drivers for example in BE are on 60k a year.

I went to college, got my degree and have a job in the private sector for the last 8 years. I'm no-where near 60k a year and if I want to get it I'll have to work damn hard for it.
I have a pay-review every year - sometimes it doesn't matter how hard I've worked, I'm still not guaranteed any sort of an increase.

So when I see bus drivers, luas drivers etc.. looking for an increase, and not necessarily offering more productiveness as a result, and then threaten to strike to get their way I find it hard to have any sympathy for them.

Might be no harm to let Bus Eireann go to the wall and start from scratch again.
Other workers in similar positions might appreciate how good they have it.

You deserve decent pay, but in my view so does the bus driver, maybe not on the same level once you progress but on a salary that is in line with the cost of living at least. Instead of looking at the conditions that other people have and thinking it's unfair that we don't have the same, we should be seeing it as the benchmark.

Brendan Bendar

Seanachai wrote: »

It's not just taxpayer subsidised companies, it's the workplace in general. Even in technician roles or the trades, there seems to a narrative that unless you're super qualified or make bespoke furniture you don't deserve a decent wage, you're supposed to be glad of anything at all. I have friends that came home from overseas with the hope of making a go of a life here again with the 'recovery' only to find that while they could get work, the pay was so lousy that they were taking a major step back down the ladder. I don't begrudge people who are qualified good money and conditions, I just don't see why somebody who works hard in a job that doesn't require great academic ability should be relegated to low income. Also I'm not a communist, that a while other kettle of fish, especially in the last while.

It's what the market offers Seanachai,I'm afraid that the way it works.

I doubt if you set up a company you would immediately pay way above and beyond the market rates.

I certainly wouldn't and would be very foolish if I did.

[Deleted User]

Seanachai wrote: »

There seems to be an agenda to decrease wage bills for non high-skilled labour and the media are complicit in this. You'll often hear people gasping about a BE driver being on €60k, as if this is a huge amount of money, yet they wouldn't blink an eye if they were told their cousin was on €75k writing code in some software company. It seems that you now have to be a tech wizard or have a highly desirable skill to make a decent living, if you're just a trog bus driver or a cleaner or whatever then you're expected to just take your rough biscuit and chew on it. It's a depressing race to the bottom that will just create more inequality in society.

What are you suggesting ?

That only state and semi state workers, however skilled, are guaranteed decent living via government investment/higher fares?

What about those semi skilled in the private sector, are they entitled guaranteed decent living too ?

Infini

salonfire wrote: »

What are you suggesting ?

That only state and semi state workers, however skilled, are guaranteed decent living via government investment/higher fares?

What about those semi skilled in the private sector, are they entitled guaranteed decent living too ?

To be honest everyone is entitled to a decent living but attacking other workers because its PERCEIVED or ASSUMED that they got a handy number or they got the good life is at this stage getting old now. At this stage it just feel's like bitterness is setting in and the conversation gets a little stale since noone is gonna move it just goes back and forth like a pingpong match.

Stephen15

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Does anyone know how much of the country will be busless when BE goes on strike? I heard that rural services will not be affected.

Do private operators cover all the the Expressway routes now? Or are some of the so called Expressway routes meandering all over the place still. If so the word Expressway is a misnomer.

But I don't know, so I'm asking.

Geography speaking I'd say roughly 60% of the island of Ireland. 95% of the ROI.

But only about 40% of bus users as the majority of bus journeys made nationwide are by Dublin Bus. According to Wikipedia DB's annual riders hip is 125 million (2016) while BE's is only 77 million (2012).

So technically the Dublin Bus was more disruptive than the Bus Eireann strike.

end of the road

marvin80 wrote: »

The papers do sensationalize these stories a bit but it's not surprising people get annoyed when they see bus drivers for example in BE are on 60k a year.

getting annoyed over something that isn't the case seems to be the done thing these days, so that isn't surprising. no bus drivers in bus eireann are on 60k or anything near it.

marvin80 wrote: »

I went to college, got my degree and have a job in the private sector for the last 8 years. I'm no-where near 60k a year and if I want to get it I'll have to work damn hard for it.
I have a pay-review every year - sometimes it doesn't matter how hard I've worked, I'm still not guaranteed any sort of an increase.

unfortunately that is your problem. you really should consider joining a union if that is possible. going to college only entitles one to something to say they are qualified in their field, nothing more. just to repeat that the bus eireann drivers aren't on anything near 60k either.

marvin80 wrote: »

So when I see bus drivers, luas drivers etc.. looking for an increase, and not necessarily offering more productiveness as a result, and then threaten to strike to get their way I find it hard to have any sympathy for them.

they don't look for or care whether one does or doesn't have sympathy for them. it won't solve the issue either way. it's nice if people are willing to listen to their argument but if they don't then little they can do.

marvin80 wrote: »

Might be no harm to let Bus Eireann go to the wall and start from scratch again.

those using the services having no service while everything is sorted out sounds like huge harm to me.

marvin80 wrote: »

Other workers in similar positions might appreciate how good they have it.

they won't, as they have no need to. they got the job for being the best candidates,, because they deserve it, like any of us. so, nothing for them to appreciate.

trellheim

Unions think they can win this one but Expressway in this case needs to change and big time

I have to laugh at people here pressing the union case and then saying "there's no point talking about it" when they are the most intransigent lot here and refuse to give any ground what ever

Make a case - but it must include reality first.

On second thoughts, the LUAS deal made was not a real one as the management signing up for the deal may not have the contract so silly stuff not outside the pale )

n97 mini

Some comparisons with other companies here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/private-bus-operators-pay-lower-wages-than-bus-%C3%A9ireann-1.2802281

Of course, the headline could equally have read "Bus Eireann pays higher wages than private operators"

tayto lover

The Unions are the net that prevents the trapeze artist hitting the ground when things go awry.

end of the road

trellheim wrote: »

Unions think they can win this one but Expressway in this case needs to change and big time

I have to laugh at people here pressing the union case and then saying "there's no point talking about it" when they are the most intransigent lot here and refuse to give any ground what ever

Make a case - but it must include reality first.

On second thoughts, the LUAS deal made was not a real one as the management signing up for the deal may not have the contract so silly stuff not outside the pale )

what do the unions think they can win?

marvin80

end of the road wrote: »

getting annoyed over something that isn't the case seems to be the done thing these days, so that isn't surprising. no bus drivers in bus eireann are on 60k or anything near it.

unfortunately that is your problem. you really should consider joining a union if that is possible. going to college only entitles one to something to say they are qualified in their field, nothing more. just to repeat that the bus eireann drivers aren't on anything near 60k either.

they don't look for or care whether one does or doesn't have sympathy for them. it won't solve the issue either way. it's nice if people are willing to listen to their argument but if they don't then little they can do.

those using the services having no service while everything is sorted out sounds like huge harm to me.

they won't, as they have no need to. they got the job for being the best candidates,, because they deserve it, like any of us. so, nothing for them to appreciate.

I presume this statement from the Irish Time is correct - that's a very good salary for the Bus Eireann drivers.

"Bus Éireann paid its 2,487 workers an average of €52,539 in 2015, based on its €130.67 million wage bill. Bus Éireann contributed €9.25 million to its workers’ retirement pot. Taking that out, the State company paid its staff an average of €48,819 last year"

You're right about the salary increases - that is my problem. It's a problem shared by a lot of private sector workers as well.
Joining a union isn't a realistic possibility for a lot of people in the private sector either I presume. My company would have no problem shutting their offices if we started going on strike.

If Bus Eireann did go bust and had to start from scratch again - people would have to cope. Sh*t happens and you'll have to deal with it until something takes it's place or find alternative arrangements.

What's your suggestion for a solution to this problem?

end of the road

marvin80 wrote: »

If Bus Eireann did go bust and had to start from scratch again - people would have to cope. Sh*t happens and you'll have to deal with it until something takes it's place or find alternative arrangements.

it's not their job to cope or deal with it. not **** happens, leaving people without services must not be tolerated by the service users.

marvin80 wrote: »

What's your suggestion for a solution to this problem?

read this thread and the after hours thread to find out.

n97 mini

marvin80 wrote: »

What's your suggestion for a solution to this problem?

Get taxpayers to stump up more cash no doubt. "We" have to support others, it's our duty. :rolleyes:

Being serious, I would put money on it that the solution will involve a larger contribution from taxpayers. It always does.

[Deleted User]

n97 mini wrote: »

Get taxpayers to stump up more cash no doubt. "We" have to support others, it's our duty. :rolleyes:

Being serious, I would put money on it that the solution will involve a larger contribution from taxpayers. It always does.

I was listening to Late Debate on Radio 1 a few weeks ago and that was pretty much what the union reps wanted. Get a bailout from the taxpayer and remove competition.

Idbatterim

do we know what the drivers are on?

Idbatterim

I dont agree with across the board pay cuts. Some in the company will be on way better deals than others. Let them take all of the hit or the majority...