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Time for Dublin Bus to sell Donnybrook Depot?

Bray Head

The Irish Times is reporting that RTÉ is planning to sell half of its Donnybrook site, potentially yielding €70m for 15 acres. Rounding down a little, this gives €4.5m per acre.

Right across the road is a large site owned by Dublin Bus. I calculate it at seven acres. During the night it stores buses. During the day it is mostly empty.

It is not a very efficient use of land. Private operators do not have depots anywhere nearly as close to the city centre where land is so valuable.

Isn't it time to sell up? Seven acres at €4.5m each is €31.5m. This could easily pay for a bigger and better depot further south along the N11, with plenty left over. Staff would also face much lower housing costs too.

We all know that DB management is not particularly dynamic in this regard (they sat on their city centre property through the last boom too). Does the NTA have any role in forcing sensible asset management by the CIÉ companies?

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L1011

Terminal is up for rent on a 10 year lease (shows zero expectation of every resuming services) at the moment actually.

Stephen15

Are quite a lot of the bus depots in Dublin former tram yards

LXFlyer

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

First of all, I'd point out that buses start and finish their days at both ends of the routes, not just at the outer termini as people seem to think. Also, while most buses are used all day long, a significant number are only used during the morning and evening peaks to boost capacity, and these then return to the depot from the city centre to layover till they are required in the afternoon/evening in the city centre once again.

Therefore having garages at locations that allow easy access to both ends of the route is of strategic importance. Donnybrook is ideally located with two fast routes to/from the city centre to allow for buses to start/finish (Ballsbridge and N11), and is right beside the N11 allowing fast access to the southeast of the city.

Closing Donnybrook would mean most of the morning/evening peak extras having significant extra dead running to/from the depots, as would all of the last inbound buses from outer termini.

Donnybrook routes stretch as far north as DCU and Beaumont as well as the city centre, that's a long way for buses to have to go empty from somewhere like Cherrywood to start up.

I would strongly suggest that the amount of dead running necessary to operate the service would increase as a result of this idea.

Talk of drivers finding cheaper places to live is totally irrelevant - bus drivers in Donnybrook live all over the city - not in Donnybrook itself. Most of them drive to/from the depot and I imagine the sizeable number living northside wouldn't take too kindly to this idea.

Developing new routes is not dependent upon garage locations - they will be developed based on demand and bus and driver availability.

By all means a new depot to the west of the city at Grangecastle should be developed, but the depots near the city are also needed as the fleet continues to expand, and because they facilitate buses starting and finishing in the city centre.

But this notion that a strategically important asset such as Donnybrook Garage (and for that matter Broadstone Depot) should be sold simply because of a potential one-off monetary gain is fundamentally flawed.

And what is the point of having a poll with hidden results????

punisher5112

Terrible idea of selling off public assets.

Ireland will soon be all privately owned if powers that be had their way.

Its actually crazy and sad.

We should be keeping as much in the public domain as possible.

Comparison of db and rte is mad as they are running it paying huge money out and getting not a lot in return.
Rte is ran so bad and they really shouldnt be allowed to sell off any public owned assets its madness.

That money will fizzle away quicker then getting it.

stop

lxflyer wrote: »

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

How much did IE get for the sale of the land there? Seems like a massive amount of land which has been well developed, yet IE are broke.

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

How much did IE get for the sale of the land there? Seems like a massive amount of land which has been well developed, yet IE are broke.

Land that could have been used to develop a railway asset.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

Like any wholly state-owned enterprise, DB should have a focus on getting value for the taxpayer. Donnybrook bus depot is just a depot. It is not a bus station, which clearly benefits from a city centre location.

lxflyer;102459384First of all, I'd point out that buses start and finish their days at both ends of the routes, not just at the outer termini as people seem to think. Also, while most buses are used all day long, a significant number are only used during the morning and evening peaks to boost capacity, and these then return to the depot from the city centre to layover till they are required in the afternoon/evening in the city centre once again.

Therefore having garages at locations that allow easy access to both ends of the route is of strategic importance. Donnybrook is ideally located with two fast routes to/from the city centre to allow for buses to start/finish (Ballsbridge and N11), and is right beside the N11 allowing fast access to the southeast of the city.

Closing Donnybrook would mean most of the morning/evening peak extras having significant extra dead running to/from the depots, as would all of the last inbound buses from outer termini.

Donnybrook routes stretch as far north as DCU and Beaumont as well as the city centre, that's a long way for buses to have to go empty from somewhere like Cherrywood to start up.

I would strongly suggest that the amount of dead running necessary to operate the service would increase as a result of this idea.

You are of course right on the issue of dead running. But is the current configuration of depots optimal? DB serves a radius roughly 25km of the city centre. But three of its six depots are within the canals and two within the M50. More suburban depot locations might help with the provision of more orbital routes too.

lxflyer;102459384Developing new routes is not dependent upon garage locations - they will be developed based on demand and bus and driver availability.

This contradicts your point about dead running. If dead running is an issue then clearly the location of a depot does influence the routes on offer.

lxflyer;102459384Talk of drivers finding cheaper places to live is totally irrelevant - bus drivers in Donnybrook live all over the city - not in Donnybrook itself. Most of them drive to/from the depot and I imagine the sizeable number living northside wouldn't take too kindly to this idea.

My point on cheaper housing has been misunderstood. The average cost of housing within a 30-minute drive of Cherrywood is appreciably cheaper than that within a similar distance of Donnybrook. Bus drivers are people, and people like cheap housing. Sure, it would not suit every bus driver currently employed, but a suburban location would in the long run attract more applicants at a given wage.

lxflyer;102459384And what is the point of having a poll with hidden results????

Apologies, I am new to this. I will try to fix.

Mod: I have opened the display of the results.

newacc2015

punisher5112 wrote: »

Terrible idea of selling off public assets.

Ireland will soon be all privately owned if powers that be had their way.

What if the state redeveloped them and continued to own them? Like the way the various universities have been redeveloped and continue to be owned by the state. We could provide thousands of homes in the centre of the city and the taxpayer will gain from it. Not a fund.

Even if the lands are sold, the state will own the lease and the taxpayer will own them again in 50-100 years. CIE are thinking about this at Tara St station

What a terrible idea is thinking having a bus depot in the wealthiest part of Dublin is the best thing to society as private ownership is just 'sad'. So is Dubliners no having places to live, but it is not the biggest issues for some people.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Like any wholly state-owned enterprise, DB should have a focus on getting value for the taxpayer. Donnybrook bus depot is just a depot. It is not a bus station, which clearly benefits from a city centre location.

You are of course right on the issue of dead running. But is the current configuration of depots optimal? DB serves a radius roughly 25km of the city centre. But three of its six depots are within the canals and two within the M50. More suburban depot locations might help with the provision of more orbital routes too.

This contradicts your point about dead running. If dead running is an issue then clearly the location of a depot does influence the routes on offer.

My point on cheaper housing has been misunderstood. The average cost of housing within a 30-minute drive of Cherrywood is appreciably cheaper than that within a similar distance of Donnybrook. Bus drivers are people, and people like cheap housing. Sure, it would not suit every bus driver currently employed, but a suburban location would in the long run attract more applicants at a given wage.

I am going to repeat myself here - Donnybrook depot serves a mass of routes that stretch across the city - as such it is a strategic location for operating a bus service efficiently as it facilitates access to both ends of the routes it operates relatively easily.

I am not disagreeing with about the premise of opening more depots in outer locations. That is a good idea in itself (and will happen if the orbital routes go to another operator as they will have to provide their own facilities), but with the city bus fleet expanding, and likely to continue to do so for some time, any such depots really should be additional ones, rather than replacing existing depots.

Regarding new routes, the NTA dictate what routes are on offer and what the service levels on those routes must be, rather than Dublin Bus or the operator. The individual operator's garage locations have nothing to do with that.

Bray Head

I am not suggesting that DB needs some city centre storage facilities. I am just not convinced that it needs as many.
From what I can tell there is no incentive or disincentive for DB to use land efficiently, and that is a problem.
Aircoach could presumably look for a city centre storage location as it would be strategically located mid-way along its routes. It stores its coaches near the airport though. Presumably because rent is cheaper there than it is just off O'Connell St.
The contrast is that Aircoach faces hard financial constraints and DB doesn't.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I am not suggesting that DB needs some city centre storage facilities. I am just not convinced that it needs as many.
From what I can tell there is no incentive or disincentive for DB to use land efficiently, and that is a problem.
Aircoach could presumably look for a city centre storage location as it would be strategically located mid-way along its routes. It stores its coaches near the airport though. Presumably because rent is cheaper there than it is just off O'Connell St.
The contrast is that Aircoach faces hard financial constraints and DB doesn't.

All Aircoach routes start and finish at the Airport - it has no dead running to/from termini. That analogy isn't the same as a city bus operator.

And Donnybrook is not a city centre garage - it is in the south city beside a major arterial route and within a short distance of both ends of many of its routes. It would be one of the last of any of the existing locations that I would consider for closure due to its strategic location operationally.

With respect, I think that you are really just creating more problems than you would solve with this idea from an operational perspective. You need to understand the entire nature of how the city bus service works operationally to base decisions like this on, which, with respect, I don't think you do (and I wouldn't expect you to).

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, I think that you are really just creating more problems than you would solve with this idea from an operational perspective. You need to understand the entire nature of how the city bus service works operationally to base decisions like this on, which, with respect, I don't think you do (and I wouldn't expect you to).

I am curious as to know how much of Dublin Bus's staff time and fuel is currently spent on dead running (not that I would expect you to know).

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

I am curious as to know how much of Dublin Bus's staff time and fuel is currently spent on dead running (not that I would expect you to know).

Does really matter you could argue the same about driving home from a place you are wasting fuel as you aren't going anywhere productive. You say the same about Guards driving back to the station from a crime scene. You know buses don't magically in terminus or back in depots it's a bit of a riddiculous comment to make

L1011

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are quite a lot of the bus depots in Dublin former tram yards

Yes. As the DUTC moved from being a tram operator to a bus operator primarily before it merged to CIE.

dublinman1990

I'm pretty skeptical of this idea to be honest.

I would say Donnybrook has a purpose of remaining where it is now because it nearer to DCC.

If Dublin Bus or the NTA built the Cherrywood depot & put the 7 or 7a out there; the bus routes could possibly be required to only do dead runs to Brides Glen & Loughlinstown all the time instead of empty dead runs between Cherrywood & Mountjoy Square because of quicker start times. I don't know how a process like this from a new permanent depot built in Cherrywood could work in a useful way.

It probably never work at all if those routes are required to start & finish from their termini as they are working from Donnybrook.

Sam Russell

Why cannot routes start and end near the depot? Why dead run at all? For example, why not run the 7 down Ailesbury Road, turn left or right and start there?

Dead running is a waste of fuel.

0lddog

In large cities in Europe I see major bus stations with depot and light maintenance functions.
When was the last time that a bus station was built in Dublin ?

Also, this carry-on of littering the streets with bus termini belongs to 60 years ago.
What other counties in Europe go on like this these days ?

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why cannot routes start and end near the depot? Why dead run at all? For example, why not run the 7 down Ailesbury Road, turn left or right and start there?

Dead running is a waste of fuel.

Because Ailesbury road isint in the the cc where majority of bus users believe it or not most bus user still want to go to town.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Because Ailesbury road isint in the the cc where majority of bus users believe it or not most bus user still want to go to town.

Your missing my point.

Why dead run when you can pick up paying passengers on the way?

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your missing my point.

Why dead run when you can pick up paying passengers on the way?

Because it would create to much hassle having buses randomly appear only going as far as a depot not on anyfd written timetable or anything like that. It would un-nessecary confusion and time amongst both staff and passengers.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why cannot routes start and end near the depot? Why dead run at all? For example, why not run the 7 down Ailesbury Road, turn left or right and start there?

Dead running is a waste of fuel.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your missing my point.

Why dead run when you can pick up paying passengers on the way?

Unfortunately it is not as black and white as that. Dead running is a fact of life in running virtually any public transport service, but in drawing up schedules transport companies will make every effort to keep it to a minimum.

Most dead running will either be against the peak traffic flow, in other words when the existing timetabled services are more than sufficient to meet demand (therefore not generating marginal revenue), or outside the hours during which the services are specified to run in the contract.

Drawing up the rosters behind public transport schedules is a massively complex process. The fundamental issues that drive public transport rosters are the length of the route, frequency specified in the contract, the number of buses (and drivers available) and driver hours. The EU working time directive places very severe restrictions on driver working hours and in particular how long they can drive for without being required to take a break.

While it may seem more sensible to run every bus in service leaving the garage, it may mean that, depending on the length of the route, that the legal driver hours would be exceeded by operating that shorter journey in service and then operating a full round service on the route, whereas operating out of service to the terminus from the depot (which could be 15-20 minutes faster by taking a more direct route and not stopping/starting) would mean that a full round trip on the route could be delivered within the hours available, which would be a preferred result. It would also undoubtedly require more buses and drivers to deliver the service - there are a finite number of buses and drivers available.

In other words, you get the buses in operation within legal driver hours where they can deliver the maximum impact - in other words peak traffic flow.

Having said all of that, there are examples of where buses do operate in service for some/most of the journey from a terminus to a depot. There are buses that pull out of Donnybrook Garage and are scheduled to start there in either direction on the 46a and 145 on the N11 at times when loadings require additional capacity. Many driver changes on the 46a take place outside the depot, therefore reducing the need for dead running. Most buses operating Xpresso routes to UCD in the morning then return in service to the city centre in the morning peak to boost capacity before returning to one of the depots near the city.

Sam Russell

I accept the argument re driving hours, but why must buses travel out of service during peak hours? I have seen many out of service buses in O'Connell St at 5 pm going in both all directions.

The use of long routes, with buses only running from end to end, would suggest the latter 25% of each run is usually near empty, for example how many passengers travel past Ballymun to Harristown on the No 4?

punisher5112

Sam Russell wrote: »

I accept the argument re driving hours, but why must buses travel out of service during peak hours? I have seen many out of service buses in O'Connell St at 5 pm going in both all directions.

The use of long routes, with buses only running from end to end, would suggest the latter 25% of each run is usually near empty, for example how many passengers travel past Ballymun to Harristown on the No 4?

There can be many reasons.
Some are training buses not all are red and white.
Fault with bus itself so going to be replaced.
Bus running late.
Bus has been soiled( vomit or others)
Buses pulling out to go to terminus to start.
Bus needs to be pulled in driver is finished or breaking.
There are so many .

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I accept the argument re driving hours, but why must buses travel out of service during peak hours? I have seen many out of service buses in O'Connell St at 5 pm going in both all directions.

The use of long routes, with buses only running from end to end, would suggest the latter 25% of each run is usually near empty, for example how many passengers travel past Ballymun to Harristown on the No 4?

The buses heading south on O'Connell Street are likely to be going from Broadstone to start on the Lucan Road services or Xpresso routes on that corridor to Celbridge or Maynooth at Merrion Square or Westmoreland St.

Going in service for that distance would be rather pointless and in all probability would take too long and not fit into driver hours.

Buses heading north on O'Connell Street could be peak extras starting at Parnell Square from Donnybrook southbound on the 46a. They could have already operated an outbound service to cover schools traffic and then go empty to Parnell Square to boost capacity in the peak direction. Operating in service to the city would again probably take too long, and breach driver hours restrictions.

The point is they do not schedule dead running for the sake of it but rather to ensure buses can boost frequency in the direction of peak travel flow.

I'm not sure what your point is re Ballymun to Harristown is. Driver changes take place at the depot, and buses may go back into the depot for layover during the off-peak - it's hardly that great a distance. That section is not exactly representative of the route network as a whole. It's a very selective example.

I'm not sure you really understand how complex rostering a bus service is reading these posts - given finite resources the focus will always be on the direction of peak flow.

Victor

Strictly speaking, Dublin Bus doesn't own any land or buildings - CIÉ does, but even then, it doesn't necessarily own them outright.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Even if the lands are sold, the state will own the lease and the taxpayer will own them again in 50-100 years.

How would that work?

newacc2015

Victor wrote: »

How would that work?

You really want me to explain the basic concept of a lease? CIE is suggesting the exact same thing for Tara St. Someone builds a new highrise above the station and in a few decades, they take it back

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

I presume its because of the rightwing ideologies neoliberals have been pushing the last few decades, Price of everything/value of nothing types, and the society then takes a view against paying for social goods like effective public transit. The state or city won't fund it, so people start to look at alternative methods to fund it.

lxflyer wrote: »

Talk of drivers finding cheaper places to live is totally irrelevant - bus drivers in Donnybrook live all over the city - not in Donnybrook itself. Most of them drive to/from the depot and I imagine the sizeable number living northside wouldn't take too kindly to this idea.

This kind of sums up the issues with public transport in Dublin. (along with staff in Dublin Airport) Public transport can't/won't/doesn't serve the staff involved in public transport

CIARAN_BOYLE

Carawaystick wrote: »

This kind of sums up the issues with public transport in Dublin. (along with staff in Dublin Airport) Public transport can't/won't/doesn't serve the staff involved in public transport

I think the big problem with public transport is that it serves the staff too much.

Bray Head

RTÉ are finally putting a bit of Montrose up for sale. €75m for about 9 acres so €8m an acre. When I started this thread there was speculation about €4.5m an acre.

Donnybrook depot is across the road so land prices are pretty much the same. Can Dublin Bus really justify the land use given that the opportunity cost is so high?

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

RTÉ are finally putting a bit of Montrose up for sale. €75m for about 9 acres so €8m an acre. When I started this thread there was speculation about €4.5m an acre.

Donnybrook depot is across the road so land prices are pretty much the same. Can Dublin Bus really justify the land use given that the opportunity cost is so high?

It is a strategic location from which to operate bus services across a swathe of Dublin - can you not get that?

You are looking at it far too simplistically and not in any way looking at the operational value that location gives to the bus network.