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Child Item

Child refugees -majority to be males aged 17???

Confused mum84

Read that Children's minister Katherine Zappone has announced that majority of child refugees to be taken in by Ireland will be "males aged between 16/17. A couple of points on this :

1. Shouldn't we be prioritising the youngest & therefore most vulnerable of children ? Have seen reports of children as young as 12 being unaccompanied .

2. Why will majority be male? It's been well documented that unaccompanied girls faces huge risks of sexual assault & human trafficking . Again , shouldn't this young group be prioritised as much as almost adult males

3. It's well known that there are people in their 20's & well into their 30's claiming to be "17 year old children" . Why are we intentionally rewarding this decit by prioritising this age group..these people are stopping a genuine child from getting a proper place in a host country . Of course we need to include some 17 year olds but why prioritise this age ...

Makes me think it's all down to money & a box ticking exercise . The cost of "caring for a 17 year old child " is going to be far far less cheaper in the medium to long term for the government . Thus the government can get a "pat on the back " for doing their bit while keeping costs as low as possible

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[Deleted User]

Brian? wrote: »

I'm currently undergoing the assessment to foster children. I'll happily foster any of these kids.

The Turks aren't loathed in Germany, except by the extreme right. Have you been to Germany? Especially in Berlin there are Turkish businesses all over the place, no centralised and isolated.

From what I can gather the Austrians don't really like anyone.

Now. Now. Brian.

That's racist.....:D:D:D

Brian?

Mary63 wrote: »

If anyone steps forward to offer your home as a foster placement don't forget that one of these teenagers took an axe from his foster family and attacked innocent passengers on a train in Germany.This is what you are up against and its the reason Angela Merkel changed her mind about taking refugees in and tried to bribe Turkey to take them back.Turkey while they though they had a chance of getting into the EU was willing to clean up Angelas mess but now that they won't get into the EU they have told Angela to deck off.The Turks are loathed in Germany and Austria even though they have been there for decades, they haven't integrated at all.

I'm currently undergoing the assessment to foster children. I'll happily foster any of these kids.

The Turks aren't loathed in Germany, except by the extreme right. Have you been to Germany? Especially in Berlin there are Turkish businesses all over the place, no centralised and isolated.

From what I can gather the Austrians don't really like anyone.

Mary63

If anyone steps forward to offer your home as a foster placement don't forget that one of these teenagers took an axe from his foster family and attacked innocent passengers on a train in Germany.This is what you are up against and its the reason Angela Merkel changed her mind about taking refugees in and tried to bribe Turkey to take them back.Turkey while they though they had a chance of getting into the EU was willing to clean up Angelas mess but now that they won't get into the EU they have told Angela to deck off.The Turks are loathed in Germany and Austria even though they have been there for decades, they haven't integrated at all.

rgossip30

bubblypop wrote: »

What sort of progress report?

I thought that was obvious as to how they are integrating and in the long term will they work or just stay on welfare .
I expect a veil of secrecy as this experiment is not going to go well .

[Deleted User]

Brian? wrote: »

I was being a scallywag. Posters keep claiming that they're not really children, with zero evidence. Why shouldn't I claim the opposite. Both have equal validity.

Why are my statements held to a higher standard of evidence than everyone else?

I am willing to take the chance to help some children find a better life. Simple. I have no problem with my taxes paying for it, it's a far better use for the money than some of the things they've paid for. Ministerial cars for example. Or Bertie's or pension. Or payments to bond holders.

Both really don't have equal validity, unfortunately.

The experience of other Countries - the UK being particularly valid, since that is/was their intended destination - raises serious doubts about whether, in fact, these lads are children or adults.
Hence, my question.

I'd be willing to take a chance on children. But I want to know that they are children.
There are plenty of young children in camps in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.

I'd prefer to take them, in the certain knowledge that they are children.

rgossip30 wrote: »

I wonder will there be a public progress report on these 'children '?

Ha! If we're lucky, we'll get a photo op with some TD, with a child/young teenager (usually female) who will trot out the obligatory "I'm grateful to Ireland" speech, to make us feel all warm and fuzzy.
Any that cause trouble, we will hear nothing about, because it would "stoke racial tensions."

And the more facts are suppressed, and become known through social media channels, etc. - the more racial tensions really will be stoked....

[Deleted User]

rgossip30 wrote: »

I wonder will there be a public progress report on these 'children '?

What sort of progress report?

rgossip30

Brian? wrote: »

I don't. It's not up to me to vet them. That's the department of justice job. You're going to need some fairly hefty evidence to contradict them. I'm placing my faith in the dept of justice, you're deciding out of thin air that these boys are older than they say they.

I wonder will there be a public progress report on these 'children '?

_Kaiser_

Brian? wrote: »

I was being a scallywag. Posters keep claiming that they're not really children, with zero evidence. Why shouldn't I claim the opposite. Both have equal validity.

Why are my statements held to a higher standard of evidence than everyone else?

Because the evidence from authorities elsewhere suggests that they aren't and has been proven as such in several cases.

You're the one insisting that "well this time it'll be different" which is why you're being asked to back it up as the evidence and precedent doesn't support that idea(l).

I am willing to take the chance to help some children find a better life. Simple. I have no problem with my taxes paying for it, it's a far better use for the money than some of the things they've paid for. Ministerial cars for example. Or Bertie's or pension. Or payments to bond holders.

Well frankly, I'm not - and it would seem neither are an increasing number of our fellow citizens (both here in Ireland and in Europe as a whole). And as I said before too, let's not forget the over €600 million annually this country ALREADY SPENDS on foreign aid.

I'll agree with you on the examples you give but Bertie (and the many others) has a legal right to a pension (albeit hugely inflated) as a citizen of this country. The bondholder payments are a little murkier of course but there's no going back on that now - unless as you suggested to me, you lobby your TD perhaps?

But I agree, I'd far rather see money being spent to improve the situation of those who need and have a right to it - the homeless citizens of this country, those people lying on hospital trolleys, the under-resourced Gardai and the reopening of Garda stations, the ordinary taxpayers who are struggling to keep a roof over their family's head or their children in childcare while they work to pay for all this.

The above are indeed far better uses of the limited resources we have - and that includes not importing the problems of others with no ties to this State (or even Europe) and who offer nothing but additional strain on those resources and Irish /European society as a whole..again as we've already seen elsewhere on the continent but which you still reckon "will be different this time!" with no evidence to support that conclusion.

Your ideals are well intentioned, but they're not realistic in the face of the actual situation we're faced with.

Advbrd

Brian? wrote: »

Those pesky liberals eh? I'm sick of them too. Give them hell Mary! I bet they'll even complain when you come up with final solution to the Muslim issue in the mother land.

You can trust me to be honest with you Mary, I'm a socialist. It's those Weasley liberals that are the real problem. I bet we'll look back in 50 years and recognise it was the liberals that caused all of these mass immigration problems. Especially that Angela Merkel, she may pretend to be a Christian democrat but I bet she's really a liberal. And Fianna Gael, they're really liberals and not Christian democrats too.

Liberal after liberal denying that any attacks took place in Cologne, I never saw them do it but you must be right. Hiding it from us as well. It may have been on every tv and radio station and
covered in every major newspaper, but that's them hiding it in plain sight. We know what they're up to eh?

/sarcasm

The friggin gingers are taking over. I blame J.K. Rowling.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The problem is, various European Depts of Justice have decided to do just that, by deciding, pretty much out of thin air, in the absence of Birth certificates, that many of these guys are under 18.

Which makes it very difficult to state, as you did, that they are definitely all children.

I was being a scallywag. Posters keep claiming that they're not really children, with zero evidence. Why shouldn't I claim the opposite. Both have equal validity.

Why are my statements held to a higher standard of evidence than everyone else?

We read, again and again, that many of these people have no documentation.
Therefore, no Birth certificates. Making the system wide open to abuse.

Are you surprised that people don't want to be taken advantage of? Particularly when seeing the videos taken in Calais, and hearing the stories of the townspeople themselves?

I don't personally believe that every migrant is bad - but I emphatically believe that some of them do not deserve a reward for the utter contempt they show to other people.
There appear to be quite a few of the latter living in Calais - and I quite simply do not want Irish taxes to fund their insistence that they are entitled to do what they please...

I am willing to take the chance to help some children find a better life. Simple. I have no problem with my taxes paying for it, it's a far better use for the money than some of the things they've paid for. Ministerial cars for example. Or Bertie's or pension. Or payments to bond holders.

[Deleted User]

Brian? wrote: »

I don't. It's not up to me to vet them. That's the department of justice job. You're going to need some fairly hefty evidence to contradict them. I'm placing my faith in the dept of justice, you're deciding out of thin air that these boys are older than they say they.

The problem is, various European Depts of Justice have decided to do just that, by deciding, pretty much out of thin air, in the absence of Birth certificates, that many of these guys are under 18.

Which makes it very difficult to state, as you did, that they are definitely all children.

We read, again and again, that many of these people have no documentation.
Therefore, no Birth certificates. Making the system wide open to abuse.

Are you surprised that people don't want to be taken advantage of? Particularly when seeing the videos taken in Calais, and hearing the stories of the townspeople themselves?

I don't personally believe that every migrant is bad - but I emphatically believe that some of them do not deserve a reward for the utter contempt they show to other people.
There appear to be quite a few of the latter living in Calais - and I quite simply do not want Irish taxes to fund their insistence that they are entitled to do what they please...

ancapailldorcha

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary63, how do you feel about the Catholic church?

recedite wrote: »

Lets stay on topic.

Stay on topic and report posts you feel are objectionable please.

rarariot

Half of the "teens" that were let into Britain looked like older versions of Diego Costa. I doubt the department of justice over here would be much better at vetting them.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You made a very definitive statement:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/17/from-the-calais-jungle-to-croydon-migrant-children-arrive-in-bri/

If the Home Office cannot definitively assess their ages, do you have information that proves we can verify, without question, that all these lads are 16 and 17 years old?

I don't. It's not up to me to vet them. That's the department of justice job. You're going to need some fairly hefty evidence to contradict them. I'm placing my faith in the dept of justice, you're deciding out of thin air that these boys are older than they say they.

Brian?

Mary63 wrote: »

Its not so much the liberals denying there will be a problem thats the real issue, its denying what has actually happened as we saw in Cologne.That is the really scary thing, the public can't be protected from these"men" and when the inevitable happens those in authority say the victims are telling lies.

Those pesky liberals eh? I'm sick of them too. Give them hell Mary! I bet they'll even complain when you come up with final solution to the Muslim issue in the mother land.

You can trust me to be honest with you Mary, I'm a socialist. It's those Weasley liberals that are the real problem. I bet we'll look back in 50 years and recognise it was the liberals that caused all of these mass immigration problems. Especially that Angela Merkel, she may pretend to be a Christian democrat but I bet she's really a liberal. And Fianna Gael, they're really liberals and not Christian democrats too.

Liberal after liberal denying that any attacks took place in Cologne, I never saw them do it but you must be right. Hiding it from us as well. It may have been on every tv and radio station and
covered in every major newspaper, but that's them hiding it in plain sight. We know what they're up to eh?

/sarcasm

recedite

Lets stay on topic.

[Deleted User]

Mary63, how do you feel about the Catholic church?

Mary63

Its not so much the liberals denying there will be a problem thats the real issue, its denying what has actually happened as we saw in Cologne.That is the really scary thing, the public can't be protected from these"men" and when the inevitable happens those in authority say the victims are telling lies.

[Deleted User]

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ultimately whether they're 16/17 or 19/20 is an unreliable means of determining eligibility anyway.

The culture many of these teens (lets go with that) are coming from and the life they will be accustomed to is very different to their Western counterparts of similar age and THIS is what should be considered.

While 16/17 year old kids in Europe may be texting their friends all day on Whatsapp, worrying about school and exams and dating, their migrant counterparts may be living very different - perhaps violent - lives with very different and hostile attitudes to things we take for granted in the West

It's these criteria that are the most important for determining how well someone may integrate into a host nation and it's the failure by the well-intentioned liberal advocates of such proposals to recognise and adopt to this that have led to the violent and social unrest we've seen in Europe in the past year/18 months.

But again, while we should certainly try to help IF we can (and without putting our own native and legitimate citizens at a disadvantage), there is no basis for resettling these migrants in Europe at the expense and security of those same native citizens.

Fair point.

Any videos I've seen from truckers, (who have no political axe to grind), any conversations I've had with truckers who pass through Calais - all of them basically show/say the same thing.
These guys are not refugees, the vast majority are not children, they're violent criminals, who will do whatever it takes to achieve their wishes.

Why anyone would assume that they're suddenly going to become model citizens on arrival in Ireland is mind-boggling.

Snake Plisken

It would be different if we were actually taking in women and children (and I don't mean your 17 year old going on 27 children like the UK got), still don't understand why we are taking these men in if they are in france that's up to France and the UK to sort out! Fitzgerald & Zappone haven't a clue!

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

If the Home Office cannot definitively assess their ages, do you have information that proves we can verify, without question, that all these lads are 16 and 17 years old?

Ultimately whether they're 16/17 or 19/20 is an unreliable means of determining eligibility anyway.

The culture many of these teens (lets go with that) are coming from and the life they will be accustomed to is very different to their Western counterparts of similar age and THIS is what should be considered.

While 16/17 year old kids in Europe may be texting their friends all day on Whatsapp, worrying about school and exams and dating, their migrant counterparts may be living very different - perhaps violent - lives with very different and hostile attitudes to things we take for granted in the West

It's these criteria that are the most important for determining how well someone may integrate into a host nation and it's the failure by the well-intentioned liberal advocates of such proposals to recognise and adopt to this that have led to the violent and social unrest we've seen in Europe in the past year/18 months.

But again, while we should certainly try to help IF we can (and without putting our own native and legitimate citizens at a disadvantage), there is no basis for resettling these migrants in Europe at the expense and security of those same native citizens.

[Deleted User]

Brian? wrote: »

To what? The burden of proof is not on me here. It's on the department of justice. If posters on here disagree it's up to them to come up with some proof.

You made a very definitive statement:

Brian? wrote: »

You'll have to forgive me. I can only reply to anti immigrant argument at a time. The post I replied to contended it was too costly to bring immigrants in, it's not. You seem to agree.

Next, they're adults pretending to be children. They're not

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/17/from-the-calais-jungle-to-croydon-migrant-children-arrive-in-bri/

Home Office documents show that if a refugee does not have a birth certificate, a Home Office screening officer can certify them as a child based on their “physical appearance” or “demeanour”.
The document states that refugees “should be treated as an adult if their physical appearance/demeanour very strongly suggests that they are significantly over 18 years of age”.

However, it says that “all other applicants should be afforded the benefit of the doubt and treated as children”.
The guide for Home Office officials adds: “All available sources of relevant information and evidence should be considered, since no single assessment technique, or combination of techniques, is likely to determine the applicant’s age with precision.”

If the Home Office cannot definitively assess their ages, do you have information that proves we can verify, without question, that all these lads are 16 and 17 years old?

Brian?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ah yes, that's the other common argument used by people in favour alright - "they are coming anyway. There's nothing you can do about it so you might as well accept it!"

Not so.. that's the thing about democracy, and it's why we should be having a constructive and balanced national debate on the issue and how WE as a nation can and SHOULD proceed!

I'm not actually making That argument though. I was merely rebutting your post that paying for these refugees was unrealistic when it's happening in reality.

Feel free to lobby your TD.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Link?

To what? The burden of proof is not on me here. It's on the department of justice. If posters on here disagree it's up to them to come up with some proof.

gitzy16v

Brian? wrote: »

You'll have to forgive me. I can only reply to anti immigrant argument at a time. The post I replied to contended it was too costly to bring immigrants in, it's not. You seem to agree.

Next, they're adults pretending to be children. They're not

I think we should help genuine refugees,no doubt.
These fraudsters in Calais I have no time for.

_Kaiser_

Brian? wrote: »

It's an unrealistic fantasy to take in refugees that are about to be taken in? I think that's fairly realistic, given it's actually happening. These children will be arriving soon no matter what people think.

Or are you not reading my posts and supposing I advocate letting everyone in?

Ah yes, that's the other common argument used by people in favour alright - "they are coming anyway. There's nothing you can do about it so you might as well accept it!"

Not so.. that's the thing about democracy, and it's why we should be having a constructive and balanced national debate on the issue and how WE as a nation can and SHOULD proceed!

[Deleted User]

Brian? wrote: »

You'll have to forgive me. I can only reply to anti immigrant argument at a time. The post I replied to contended it was too costly to bring immigrants in, it's not. You seem to agree.

Next, they're adults pretending to be children. They're not

Link?

Brian?

gitzy16v wrote: »

No problem.
The problem is with the adults males pretending to be 16/17yo refugees in an illegal settlement in France.

You'll have to forgive me. I can only reply to anti immigrant argument at a time. The post I replied to contended it was too costly to bring immigrants in, it's not. You seem to agree.

Next, they're adults pretending to be children. They're not

rarariot

To be honest the people who agree with taking in these "16-18" year old men will probably change their tune when one of them is found rubbing one off in their local swimming pool where their own children get lessons. As has been well publicised as a problem in Germany recently.

Brian?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The "problem" is that contrary to some opinions, there IS no magic money tree and we are a small island nation of limited resources that is already struggling to meet the needs of citizens and issues here.

By suggesting we divert further monies to support "child refugees" (especially when the evidence in the majority of these cases suggests that they are anything but!) is in fact suggesting that we should put these people AHEAD of those who DO have legal and constitutional rights to that support.

THAT is the problem with your position. It's based on an unrealistic fantasy that bears no resemblance to the reality of the situation

It's an unrealistic fantasy to take in refugees that are about to be taken in? I think that's fairly realistic, given it's actually happening. These children will be arriving soon no matter what people think.

Or are you not reading my posts and supposing I advocate letting everyone in?