FrancieBrady wrote: » It was offered as a counter to a critical post about Churchill. So yeh, Fred was trying to make Churchill seem better because he admired a few Irish men. In much the same way you see people fawning for compliments from visiting celebrities or tourists. 'ohhhhhh you like us, how exciting'.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » i suppose if you read everything through a filter you can come to conclusions like that.
FrancieBrady wrote: » sigh, Just like the hurling of 'Shinners' when we see 'Filters' we know where we are at in the debate again. :rolleyes:
Fratton Fred wrote: » he fat overweight and and liked a few drinks alright, but he was no coward. He liked Collins, as he saw him as someone who was not too dissimilar. a selfless love of their country. It is easy to conclude that he hated Dev because he saw him as a coward who was only interested in becoming king.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » in fairness it isnt the first time you have mentioned an irish inferiority complex. or even the second or third.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Because I believe it exists maybe? Why else would you have somebody thinking that a man was somehow of better character because 'he admired a few Irish men'?
ohnonotgmail wrote: » nobody said that. you just made it up.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Well why was it offered in answer to a criticism of Churchill?
Fratton Fred wrote: » ok, not stand down, but paratroopers who don't use parachutes are just soldiers, aren't they?
Fratton Fred wrote: » hang on, I thought all of Hitlers forces were out east fighting the Russians?
Fratton Fred wrote: » they did win, but they still had to dedicate 20,000 soldiers and 400 aircraft to do it.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » why was what offered? your made up, imagined response? Churchill like one particular irish person and didnt like another. that is all the post said. But to you that is somehow the sign of an inferiority complex.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Because it was offered in answer to a criticism of him. What were we supposed to infer from it? Fred just felt like telling us this nugget for the sake of it? If you have a problem with me inferring something well I am sorry again, that is what you do in a debate. Just because you don't see something or refuse to see it, doesn't apply to us all.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » Inferring <> Just making stuff up.
FrancieBrady wrote: » inferɪnˈfəː/Submit verb deduce or conclude (something) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements. Wrong, must try harder.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » the key words being evidence and reasoning. both were lacking in your post.
FrancieBrady wrote: » That is a matter of opinion, to which you are entitled, like everybody. Anything else?
ohnonotgmail wrote: » logic and reasoning are matters of fact not opinion. Anything else?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Your recognition of them are in doubt. That's your problem not mine. If Fred was just offering us his nugget of info for the sake of it, why did he quote the criticism of Churchill?
Fratton Fred wrote: » He was accused of being a coward, which he wasn't. The comments about Collins and De Valera were to demonstrate how he thought. He admired a man who was prepared to stand up and fight for his beliefs, even if those beliefs were not in keeping with his own, but less so of a man who ran away from confrontation and his behind others. I could have given ther examples maybe, but those two seemed most relevant on an Irish forum.
LordSutch wrote: » British army or Irish army? Watch this video and you'll know which army to choose...https://youtu.be/4ECDT0WU2ZY
Hammar wrote: » You're obviously British going by that post, as certainly no Irishman worth his salt would have such a condescending attitude towards his own defence forces.
LordSutch wrote: » Although I presume it was created and acted out by Irish men in Raidió Teilifís Éireann. Also, if you look again at my post 1100 you might notice the
FrancieBrady wrote: » Apropos of the general drift of the conversation. Whenever I read this poem I conjure an image of Winston.Base Details If I were fierce, and bald, and short of breath I'd live with scarlet Majors at the Base, And speed glum heroes up the line to death. You'd see me with my puffy petulant face, Guzzling and gulping in the best hotel, Reading the Roll of Honour. "Poor young chap," I'd say -- "I used to know his father well; Yes, we've lost heavily in this last scrap." And when the war is done and youth stone dead, I'd toddle safely home and die -- in bed. Siegfried Sassoon An antidote to the predatory aspirational ad stuff, maybe.
Jawgap wrote: » Why? Churchill was likely serving as a battalion commander on (a quiet sector of) the Western Front when Sassoon wrote this. So given he was literally and metaphorically in the trenches why would this poem have any relevance to him?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Any cowards I know tend to revere brave men. It isn't neccesarily the recognition of a like mind. Churchill didn't like DeValera because he was bested by him. Which indicates an entirely different type of personality. One that fits in with other aspects of what we know about him, his attitude to race, to people he saw as inferior by dint of birth and his general arrogance.
Fratton Fred wrote: » Which doesn't in any way match up with Churchill's admiration for Collins now, does it? Churchill disliked De Valera because he was a sniveling coward, he shat himself in Bolans mill, hid for the war of independence and didn't even have the balls to attend the treaty negotiations. The only admirable thing about De Valera was that he managed to con an entire nation long enough to become president.
FrancieBrady wrote: » That's why you dislike Dev maybe. There is no doubt he stood up to Churchill's aggression and arrogance though. .
Fratton Fred wrote: » when?
