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Arlene Foster and the RHI scandal

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Danzy

kbannon wrote: »

How?
I'd say Westminster is delighted!
If anything it distracts the anti-Brexit shower in NI from whatever Brexit operations will happen in the coming weeks or months.

They could care less, why would they give a toss or worry about that?

Anita Blow

Because it's them who will foot the bill. NI can't even fund itself day to day let alone this additional 500 million pounds

Danzy

Anita Blow wrote: »

Because it's them who will foot the bill. NI can't even fund itself day to day let alone this additional 500 million pounds

Westminster is footing the bill but they could not care less and they never give an impression otherwise.

FrancieBrady

Anita Blow wrote: »

Because it's them who will foot the bill. NI can't even fund itself day to day let alone this additional 500 million pounds

Danzy wrote: »

Westminster is footing the bill but they could not care less and they never give an impression otherwise.

Fairly standard Tory behaviour - politics before integrity.

There is a growing perception in Northern Ireland that the potential usefulness of DUP votes in Westminster to advance Brexit may be compromising the UK government’s willingness to challenge the DUP and ability to act as honest broker and impartial guardians of the Good Friday Agreement

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/01/arlene-foster-has-led-northern-ireland-crisis-and-westminster-strangely

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fairly standard Tory behaviour - politics before integrity.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/01/arlene-foster-has-led-northern-ireland-crisis-and-westminster-strangely

That is one way of looking at it, the other is that they decide on the issues of priority and importance.

Once again though, it demonstrates the foolishness of SF's abstentionist policy that results in zero influence in Westminister at times like this.

Not Propaganda

kbannon wrote: »

How?
I'd say Westminster is delighted!
If anything it distracts the anti-Brexit shower in NI from whatever Brexit operations will happen in the coming weeks or months.

Pending a Supreme Court decision, the NI Assembly could potentially block Brexit. That means the election could be fought with Brexit as an issue for the electorate, losing the DUP more votes and if that comes to pass, the UK has a constitutional crisis on it's hands.

Even if the Supreme Court rejects that challenge, there's a growing feeling that the DUP are being pandered to in order to secure their MP's votes in any potential Parliamentary debate on Brexit. If the Tories aren't careful they're at risk of continuing to stoke the divisions in NI and that's not good for anyone involved. It's in Westminster's best interest for NI to be quiet and no drama, at all times. They should most definitely be worried.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

That is one way of looking at it, the other is that they decide on the issues of priority and importance.

Once again though, it demonstrates the foolishness of SF's abstentionist policy that results in zero influence in Westminister at times like this.

Jesus, can you not ever get over the 'it's always SF more at fault' tiresomeness.

There is nothing stopping Westminister getting involved if they are concerned about 500 million going up in smoke.
500 million is roughly what NI gets a year in subsidy from the EU minus the 350 million that farming gets.

FrancieBrady

Not Propaganda wrote: »

Pending a Supreme Court decision, the NI Assembly could potentially block Brexit. That means the election could be fought with Brexit as an issue for the electorate, losing the DUP more votes and if that comes to pass, the UK has a constitutional crisis on it's hands.

Even if the Supreme Court rejects that challenge, there's a growing feeling that the DUP are being pandered to in order to secure their MP's votes in any potential Parliamentary debate on Brexit. If the Tories aren't careful they're at risk of continuing to stoke the divisions in NI and that's not good for anyone involved. It's in Westminster's best interest for NI to be quiet and no drama, at all times. They should most definitely be worried.

Yes, it shows again (if it needed to be shown) that those with responsibility will put selfish interests ahead of what is best for NI.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, can you not ever get over the 'it's always SF more at fault' tiresomeness.

There is nothing stopping Westminister getting involved if they are concerned about 500 million going up in smoke.
500 million is roughly what NI gets a year in subsidy from the EU minus the 350 million that farming gets.

You are putting words in my mouth and ignoring the points I make.

The reason the DUP have such influence at Westminister is because of the precarious position of the Conservative government and the absence of a counterweight of SF taking their seats. That is plainly obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense and how you can twist that into "it's always SF more at fault" is beyond me, unless it is an inconvenient truth that you don't want to address.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

You are putting words in my mouth and ignoring the points I make.

The reason the DUP have such influence at Westminister is because of the precarious position of the Conservative government and the absence of a counterweight of SF taking their seats. That is plainly obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense and how you can twist that into "it's always SF more at fault" is beyond me, unless it is an inconvenient truth that you don't want to address.

I addressed your point.

There is nothing stopping Westminster getting involved if they are concerned about 500 million going up in smoke.

johnnyskeleton

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, can you not ever get over the 'it's always SF more at fault' tiresomeness.

There is nothing stopping Westminister getting involved if they are concerned about 500 million going up in smoke.
500 million is roughly what NI gets a year in subsidy from the EU minus the 350 million that farming gets.

Godge wrote: »

You are putting words in my mouth and ignoring the points I make.

The reason the DUP have such influence at Westminister is because of the precarious position of the Conservative government and the absence of a counterweight of SF taking their seats. That is plainly obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense and how you can twist that into "it's always SF more at fault" is beyond me, unless it is an inconvenient truth that you don't want to address.

Mod note:

Raise the standard of discussion please.

Anatom

Interesting article on The Irish Times website this morning by Eamon Mallie on Arlene Foster and McGuinness. Make of it what you will...

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/eamonn-mallie-hope-and-history-rhymed-for-arlene-foster-but-she-did-not-hear-them-1.2934254

Eamonn Mallie: Hope and history rhymed for Arlene Foster but she did not hear them

Eamonn Mallie
Last Updated: Thursday, January 12, 2017, 11:37

At 1.30 on Monday lunchtime, well away from the cameras and the public, an enfeebled and emaciated deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness walked into First Minister Arlene Foster’s office and greeted her in a virtual whisper.

Foster rose to her feet, shocked at McGuinness’s disposition, moved towards him, took him in her arms, cleaved him to her bosom and said, “Martin, it’ll be all right. You and I are going to sort out this mess.

“I’ll step aside for a little while and I’ll go out and tell the world life is too short for all this bickering and arguing.”

This didn’t happen. I imagined this on Tuesday as I reflected on my sense of shock on seeing the gaunt figure of the Deputy First Minister on our TV screens.

What, I thought, if the events of the day had been otherwise and Foster, mindful of all our human physical frailties, had acted graciously in the circumstances?

Northern Ireland would potentially be a different place not just now but possibly for ever.

One single act of grace, of leadership, at the hands of Arlene Foster would probably have melted the possibility of what she now expects to be a “brutal election”.

When will principle of noblesse oblige hit the Hill?

Fr Brian D’Arcy who was abused as a young boy and as a trainee priest is still loyal to God at 70. I once challenged him to explain why he still clings to a God who claims to be just, but who allowed this evil to be visited upon him?

“I’ll tell you why,” he said, “some nights I am driving back to Fermanagh and I am tired and I remember some poor devil who is ill or who is in hospital and I decide to visit that person. A few days later or a short time later I hear that person has died.

“I thank God for guiding me to do that simple act of visiting a sick person.”

This is not just about God it is about leadership and good example.

When former DUP leader Peter Robinson and his wife Iris had their very public domestic upheaval, one of the earliest outings in the aftermath was their visit to Dublin Castle where Queen Elizabeth was the guest of president Mary McAleese and of the Irish Government. Mrs Robinson cut a dash in her bottle-green dress flanked by her husband, but what was more memorable for me were two other happenings.

Hundreds of people lined up to be greeted by Mrs McAleese. She did not over-fraternise with most of them, but when it was Mrs Robinson’s turn to shake hands with the president Mrs McAleese cleaved her to her bosom and hugged her.

This was an act of grace and an act of love for one who had suffered.

In addressing the Dublin Castle gathering on that same night in perfect Irish, the queen was gracious to her hosts, uninhibited in acknowledging Irish nationhood, visiting the Garden of Remembrance and Croke Park, landmarks housing loaded memories of a bitter past between the British and Irish peoples.

In her speech the queen expanded on the British-Irish enmity.

“Of course, the relationship has not always been straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign. It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history, our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss.

“These events have touched us all, many of us personally, and are a painful legacy. We can never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all.” Grace and leadership in spades from the queen.

Within touching distance of the queen in Dublin Castle sat poet Seamus Heaney who once wrote:

“Be advised, my passport’s green/ No glass of ours was ever raised/ To toast the Queen.”

Now he was toasting that same queen.

This was another act of grace by one of the most celebrated poets in the world writing in the English language who was born into a nationalist family in Northern Ireland.

That same generosity resides in Heaney’s fellow poet Michael Longley of a Protestant tradition who penned these words in Ceasefire:

I
Put in mind of his own father and moved to tears
Achilles took him by the hand and pushed the old king
Gently away, but Priam curled up at his feet and
Wept with him until their sadness filled the building.

II
Taking Hector’s corpse into his own hands Achilles
Made sure it was washed and, for the old king’s sake,
Laid out in uniform, ready for Priam to carry
Wrapped like a present home to Troy at daybreak.

III

When they had eaten together, it pleased them both
To stare at each other’s beauty as lovers might,
Achilles built like a god, Priam good-looking still
And full of conversation, who earlier had sighed:

IV

‘I get down on my knees and do what must be done
And kiss Achilles’ hand, the killer of my son.’

We can all learn from history but history can be cruel to history-makers. Ian Paisley paid a high price for befriending Martin McGuinness as his deputy first minister. John Hume engaged Sinn Féin to bring about an end to the IRA’s campaign of violence and Sinn Féin stole his party’s clothes.

Peter Robinson stood aside as first minister during his tenure while senior counsel investigated an allegation that he had breached the Ministerial Code. He regained his role as first minister when no guilt was proven. The sky didn’t fall in because he withdrew from exercising his duties for several weeks.

Robinson attended the Dr McKenna Cup GAA final in Armagh and met with hostility in his own camp for doing so. He did his damnedest to deliver the Maze project but, faced with outright opposition, he had to surrender. Politics is a cruel trade.

McGuinness visited Paisley when he was ill and regularly phoned Mrs Paisley when her husband was in hospital.

Meeting the queen was a high-wire act for McGuinness. The foot soldiers looked to him during the IRA’s campaign. He was the last person history would have expected to entertain the queen. Risk-taking is part of leadership.

The question is now: has Arlene Foster forfeited a place in history in the current atmosphere in being too inflexible?

Had she in reality cleaved an ailing McGuinness to her bosom in an act of generosity, God only knows what would have flown from such a gesture.

Our society is crying out for humanity and hope.

Again as Heaney told us, “if you have the words, there’s always a chance that you’ll find the way”. He wrote in The Cure at Troy:

History says, don’t hope
On this side of the grave.
But then, once in a lifetime
The longed-for tidal wave
Of justice can rise up,
And hope and history rhyme.
So hope for a great sea-change
On the far side of revenge.
Believe that further shore
Is reachable from here.
Believe in miracle
And cures and healing wells.
Call miracle self-healing:
The utter, self-revealing
Double-take of feeling.
If there’s fire on the mountain
Or lightning and storm
And a god speaks from the sky
That means someone is hearing
The outcry and the birth-cry
Of new life at its term.”

We could all learn from the lessons of US civil rights leader Dr Martin Luther King in 1965 – et tu Arlene – who observed that sometimes it is better to walk away from confrontation. The protesters sat down on the road and: “After prayers they rose and turned the march back to Selma, avoiding another confrontation with state troopers and skirting the issue of whether to obey Judge Johnson’s court order.

Many marchers were critical of King’s unexpected decision not to push on to Montgomery, but the restraint gained support from president Lyndon Johnson, who issued a public statement: ‘‘Americans everywhere join in deploring the brutality with which a number of Negro citizens of Alabama were treated when they sought to dramatise their deep and sincere interest in attaining the precious right to vote’’. Johnson promised to introduce a voting rights bill to Congress within a few days.’

Leadership . . .

Jayop

She wouldn't know good leadership if it bit her on the arse.

FrancieBrady

Anatom wrote: »

Interesting article on The Irish Times website this morning by Eamon Mallie on Arlene Foster and McGuinness.

Leadership . . .

I don't think any reasonable person could defend the DUP's record on peacemaking.
It's truly abysmal, the Never Never Never culture has to disappear.

A Little Pony

Anita Blow wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Godge wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A United Ireland would sort his problems out overnight.
His predicament is not a good thing really.
New flag, New republic, he and others like him would jump at it.

That is a very patronising response dismissing the opinion of Ireland's leading sportsman, who should be seen as a spokesperson for the new generation of Northern Ireland people.

Jayop wrote: »

Wow, one person's opinions when he clearly has a huge vested financial interest in keeping "both sides" placated is now the spokesperson and represents the views of the majority of young people in the north.

Christ Gogde is I came up with ****e of that standard you'd be pissing yourself laughing.

I recognise that McIlroy personifies the fear that republicans have of the North becoming normalised and ordinary Catholics developing an attachment to that state, but it is the reality. The demographic dividend that was supposed to arrive in the mid-1990s and change the political landscape of Northern Ireland still hasn't arrived twenty years later and it is now clear it never will. Just like the tide that doesn't wash over the sand-dunes, the dream of a united Ireland is on the way out. The high water mark was reached and the only way is down.

Spot on. They have their own country in NI, they don't need an Irish Republic to prosper. They reap the benefits of the Union. United Ireland is dead.

Have to laugh at this. Reap the benefits of the Union? Britain literally could not care less for NI and NI has certainly reaped no benefits in the last 10 years.

Here's a graph for you. The line you see skirting along the bottom of the graph far below any other is the GDP per capita of NI compared with any other region in the UK. Not only has it been stagnant since 2012, it is still nearly a decade later less than 90% what it was in 2007 while the rest of the UK has shown recovery

I could name you multiple reasons for why joining the Irish Republic is not a good idea. The economy in the South can not afford Northern Ireland, as as been outlined lots of times before on this forum.
http://www.theirishworld.com/irelands-diaspora-minister-says-we-cant-afford-a-united-ireland/

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

I could name you multiple reasons for why joining the Irish Republic is not a good idea. The economy in the South can not afford Northern Ireland, as as been outlined lots of times before on this forum.
http://www.theirishworld.com/irelands-diaspora-minister-says-we-cant-afford-a-united-ireland/

Well if you are burning through 500 million a year and the only people who care enough to do something about it (SF) are your bad boys, I think a bit of attitude adjustment may be needed.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, can you not ever get over the 'it's always SF more at fault' tiresomeness.

To be fair I've always said they were both as bad as each other....

FrancieBrady

Doesn't bode well for Arlene when her local (traditionally unionist) paper is writing articles like this :http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/15020154.Denzil_McDaniel__We___re_going_to_have_to_have_a_deal_which_respects_everyone/?ref=fbshr

Anatom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Doesn't bode well for Arlene when her local (traditionally unionist) paper is writing articles like this :http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/15020154.Denzil_McDaniel__We___re_going_to_have_to_have_a_deal_which_respects_everyone/?ref=fbshr

That's a really good, well-written article. Well balanced. If only people took notice!

FrancieBrady

Anatom wrote: »

That's a really good, well-written article. Well balanced. If only people took notice!

It will be very interesting to analyse her vote locally. Not expecting a huge change but who knows.

I honestly think an election is a good thing for everybody at this point.

Anatom

She'll see a dip in support perhaps, but nothing to trouble her seat. In fact, given the electoral changes (losing one seat), the core vote mightn't fall too much numerically at all - perhaps only in percentage terms.

Anyway, an election is the biggest waste of time and money. It won't solve anything.

FrancieBrady

Anatom wrote: »

Anyway, an election is the biggest waste of time and money. It won't solve anything.

Depends on how it is fought. If it descends into 'them and us' then I agree. if it is about Brexit, and the issues then I think that is a good venting.
The executive was going nowhere and was a bigger waste than an election might be.

Anatom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Depends on how it is fought. If it descends into 'them and us' then I agree. if it is about Brexit, and the issues then I think that is a good venting.
The executive was going nowhere and was a bigger waste than an election might be.

That's the problem. NI is so small that any election can only descend into a "them and us" contest.

I'm not sure how anyone can use the Brexit situation because none of us know what's going to happen next. The only thing that might change it will be the Supreme Court ruling (next week perhaps?) and whether May triggers Article 50 as she's said she would in March. Even then, and unless there's a second referendum, I don't see it as something that could be used by either side to further their election causes.

A bad result for the DUP will see Foster toppled and we'll need to have a new SF deputy First Minister anyway. RHI has been suspended, so that is a subject with no future, although it will be used as a weapon on the doorsteps to accuse its supporters and connivers with. Otherwise, nothing to see here.

No, there'll be weeks of hyped up headlines and we'll be back to normal after Easter, then it'll be back to marching season and the circus keeps going...

What a waste.

A Little Pony

People don't give a sh*t about Martin Mcguinness state because he didn't give a sh*t about blowing their husbands or relatives up with semtex. That is why that article is a bit naive.

flutered

A Little Pony wrote: »

People don't give a sh*t about Martin Mcguinness state because he didn't give a sh*t about blowing their husbands or relatives up with semtex. That is why that article is a bit naive.

neither did the shankill butchers or king rat for that matter

FrancieBrady

Anatom wrote: »

No, there'll be weeks of hyped up headlines and we'll be back to normal after Easter, then it'll be back to marching season and the circus keeps going...

What a waste.

I don't agree. I think SF are determined to administer some ECG treatment to the GFA.

Otherwise it all stagnates even further. We won't be seeing them back if Arlene is still there anyhow. And I don't think the DUP will risk letting the UUP encroach more on them by repeating the awful mistakes they made under her. Lessons will be learned.
I could be wrong, terribly wrong though.

Anatom

The article does acknowledge his past, quite clearly. So its not naive at all in that respect.

Ferm001

Shed with 8 boilers and 14T of wood pellets burnt down last week in her constituency.

Anatom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't agree. I think SF are determined to administer some ECG treatment to the GFA.

Otherwise it all stagnates even further. We won't be seeing them back if Arlene is still there anyhow. And I don't think the DUP will risk letting the UUP encroach more on them by repeating the awful mistakes they made under her. Lessons will be learned.
I could be wrong, terribly wrong though.

I hope you're right.

SF need to see the GFA work, otherwise their dreams of a United Ireland will go the same way as those 14 tonnes of wood pellets in Foster's constituency the other weekend - at least for the next while.

I really hope lessons are learned because otherwise they'll just stay the same way and nothing will change. Unfortunately, I can't see anything substantial happening to change my view that this'll just be another slight electoral blip and the same parties will be saying the same things this time next year.

A Little Pony

flutered wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

People don't give a sh*t about Martin Mcguinness state because he didn't give a sh*t about blowing their husbands or relatives up with semtex. That is why that article is a bit naive.

neither did the shankill butchers or king rat for that matter

Who are all dead now. Mcguinness isn't. You won't find large amounts of sympathy within the Unionist people. We can't ever forget.