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Teachers not in real world etc.

BoatMad

this is a thread split from asti thread
The thread title was mine, but I guess its the tenor of boatmad's general thesis (I'll change if op requests).

I was just going to delete all the posts as it was moving away from old thread title, but some of the back and forth took a lot of consideration... so let's just see where it goes.

Please keep to the points addressed ( if the word 'you' is in your post then try and depersonalise)

Mod

**************

To me it seems that teachers are looking for fair play, its hard to agree to reforms when its all take take take and no give........the reforms always seem to end up with worsening conditions of work and poorer renumeration with questionable improvements in the standard of education that these so called reforms will bring .... with no acknowledgement that they might not actually be a good thing......or that they might in fact be a tarted up versions of things that happened over the last 20 years in places like the UK and aren't really all that great for the students never mind the teachers

the fact remains in this particular debate , only " certain " teachers have that view, and even amongst ASTI, there is a dawning acceptance ( i think ) that that this is not a battle that can be won

SO the " fair play " argument has little water , teachers are amongst the best paid etc etc
worsening conditions , you mean a CP hour deal that in effect is an hour a week !!, I was talking to new PWC graduates intakes that are working ti 9pm every night without additional pay , !!!!!. seriously

well in ireland well never know if reforms are " a good thing " or not, cause we take ages to implement any change

Now you wouldn't know it from listening to the rabble rousing media in this country but it appears as if Irish teachers already work many more contact hours than the teachers in the ideal systems they are compared to, have much higher teacher student ratios and have had many other terms and conditions reduced (savaged in some cases) not to mention looking over their shoulder in case some clipboard wielding jobsworth comes in to inspect the cover your ass paper trail/justify their existence

Irelands educational outcomes are nothing to crow about and never have been , we have as a whole a quite mediocre education system by world standards, for years the church, the police , and the education was regarded as " superb " and above reproach , the first two have fallen from their perch , education isn't far behind.

The best kind of reform might be to provide proper resources, treat the actual educated professional with some respect (in terms of resources and work environment) instead of constantly trying to bully them into submission and reduce their terms and conditions for a stressful and demanding job which requires postgrad qualifications (usually two or more) for nearly every candidate now and has also probably had to put up with way less than full hours for an average of 5 years or more just to get their foot in the door to no more than the weekly incomings of someone thats been working in the local spar for a couple of year...all the while chipping away at the value of the pensions (to where in some cases it looks like you might end up paying more in than the value of what you get out) etc etc

oh please lets leave the poor unpaid nonsense argument out of it, Teachers are comparatively well paid, have time off and pension benefits not available to a large proportion of the working population.

and lets not get into the amount of credentialism as a value of your job, everyone has a post grad these days , there are PHds virtually flipping burgers .

and please no teacher has a clue about the conditions in spar. again lets not descent into nonsense comparisons

Teachers are not "overworked" or " stressed " or " put upon" no more then any other group , in fact they have been entirely shielded from the huge changes in the commercial workplace, particularly the "gig" economy

we need to drop the self generated shibboleths that surround teachers as if they are not present in ALL workplaces

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BoatMad

since the new JC will increase my workload, it does represent a fairly obvious attack on my conditions

you may have to do more in the same given time, wow , join the real world, have you seen what has happened to commercial employment, !!

You cannot have an employment based on a simple quantum of work . in any commercial employment work rate increases as necceasry to get the job done, often with no additional monies involved . its a function of flexible workforces in a globalised economy , i.e. one where we are in competition with ecomonies around the world

Benicetomonty

BoatMad wrote: »

you may have to do more in the same given time, wow , join the real world, have you seen what has happened to commercial employment, !!

You cannot have an employment based on a simple quantum of work . in any commercial employment work rate increases as necceasry to get the job done, often with no additional monies involved . its a function of flexible workforces in a globalised economy , i.e. one where we are in competition with ecomonies around the world

Ah, the real world argument ðŸ˜’ One that nobody with any experience of what sound teaching involves would make.

Teaching is not 'commercial employment'. I pray that it never will be.

The fact that we have been tasked with 33 extra hours, at least 20 of which are utterly useless, means in this case, we have been given an increased work rate that is certifiably not necessary. Stop trying to compare the education system to a corporation.

BoatMad

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Ah, the real world argument ðŸ˜’ One that nobody with any experience of what sound teaching involves would make.

Teaching is not 'commercial employment'. I pray that it never will be.

The fact that we have been tasked with 33 extra hours, at least 20 of which are utterly useless, means in this case, we have been given an increased work rate that is certifiably not necessary. Stop trying to compare the education system to a corporation.

Teaching is a task , that a person is paid to do, no different to a pharmacist in phizer or an engineer in Intel.

I have not said that teaching is identical to commercial employment, but the fact remains that teachers cannot remain aloof from the real world around them. They cannot have terms and conditions that are manifestly superior to those elsewhere, thats not sustainable.

many tasks have hours that the worker "feels " is a waste of their time , in fact there isn't a grade of worker that wouldn't have that complaint, some are valid , some are not.

The difference is that teachers have a position of power that is not available to ordinary workers, and behind that the " limitless " public purse , which in recent years has unfortunately proved to be in fact very " limited "

Hence the current period of " readjustment " !:D

deiseindublin

@BoatMad - what's your occupation. Give us all a chance to pull it apart and see if we (who have never done it) think it's actually a peach!

BoatMad

deiseindublin wrote: »

@BoatMad - what's your occupation. Give us all a chance to pull it apart and see if we (who have never done it) think it's actually a peach!

Im self employed married to a teacher . Theres not much to pull apart !, in essence you work all the hours for increasing less money with no social welfare protections or pensions ( that you can afford ) all the time , paying more tax then the equivalent PAYE worker !. its quite horrible for the self employed these days ( oh and I have two post grad qualifications to boot )

acequion

I'll be accused of back seat modding but I'd urge ye all to hit the ignore button and not feed! I already have.

How much continuous justifying of our existence are we supposed to do? We've been at it now since 2008,constantly rebutting the same old ignorant and utterly jaded arguments.

So let's save our energies for a] our jobs which despite everything most of us still really enjoy and b] the important battles.

Grueller

BoatMad wrote: »

Im self employed married to a teacher . Theres not much to pull apart !, in essence you work all the hours for increasing less money with no social welfare protections or pensions ( that you can afford ) all the time , paying more tax then the equivalent PAYE worker !. its quite horrible for the self employed these days ( oh and I have two post grad qualifications to boot )

I was a public sector employee and left to go self employed. There are some benefits and some disadvantages. However I fail to see how I am paying more tax. In fact quite the opposite as I write off an awful lot of the cost of working expenses through my tax returns that I could not have ever done as a paye worker.
Ironically, I was directly employed by the HSE and now contract into the HSE and do a considerable proportion of my work for the Department of Education also.
I am a counsellor by the way specifically in addiction services.

BoatMad

Grueller wrote: »

I was a public sector employee and left to go self employed. There are some benefits and some disadvantages. However I fail to see how I am paying more tax. In fact quite the opposite as I write off an awful lot of the cost of working expenses through my tax returns that I could not have ever done as a paye worker.
Ironically, I was directly employed by the HSE and now contract into the HSE and do a considerable proportion of my work for the Department of Education also.
I am a counsellor by the way specifically in addiction services.

you should know that euro for euro , you pay more tax as a self employed as you do not get the pAYE tax allowance, what you get to write off are business expenses incurred in the provision of business, these costs are not borne by a employed person in the first place ( the last time I looked , teachers didn't have to buy their own tools or equip their " offices " etc )

BoatMad

acequion wrote: »

I'll be accused of back seat modding but I'd urge ye all to hit the ignore button and not feed! I already have.

How much continuous justifying of our existence are we supposed to do? We've been at it now since 2008,constantly rebutting the same old ignorant and utterly jaded arguments.

So let's save our energies for a] our jobs which despite everything most of us still really enjoy and b] the important battles.

indeed , especially (b) , the current one isn't one that ASTI can win, you can only win when you are united and teachers are clearly not united. ASTI cant win this battle. There may be others it can.

The public perception is important as it gives the Gov backbone, right now after the horrendous period many ordinary commercial employees have gone through , there is absolutely no public support for any actions for pay /conditions in the public sector.

Again , I am of the option , that unless you can bring All teachers with you, you cannot win this battle . Strategically the ASTI have made a serious error in thinking they could and staying outside the LRA. wrong decision at the wrong time

Grueller

BoatMad wrote: »

you should know that euro for euro , you pay more tax as a self employed as you do not get the pAYE tax allowance, what you get to write off are business expenses incurred in the provision of business, these costs are not borne by a employed person in the first place ( the last time I looked , teachers didn't have to buy their own tools or equip their " offices " etc )

In reality though is very km you claim an actual business one? Does any heating oil from the office end up at home? It may be wrong to overstate business milage and expenses but they are benefits that to my mind outweigh an €1100 difference in 2016 and €700 difference in 2017 in tax credits. At 40% that is €9 per week or roughly €5.50 per week of a difference take home.
What you say is technically correct though so I concede the point and bow out.

BoatMad

Grueller wrote: »

In reality though is very km you claim an actual business one? Does any heating oil from the office end up at home? It may be wrong to overstate business milage and expenses but they are benefits that to my mind outweigh an €1100 difference in 2016 and €700 difference in 2017 in tax credits. At 40% that is €9 per week or roughly €5.50 per week of a difference take home.
What you say is technically correct though so I concede the point and bow out.

You cannot make a comparison based on people acting illegally ( and many are caught every year and the consequences are severe ). No doubt there are teachers that are slackers and no worth the paper they are written on , but again I make no comparison with them. We are assuming both groups are acting within the law, and accept each other bone fides

Theres not much to "pull apart " is there , The fact remains teachers pay and conditions are in many ways considerably better then " the new economy ".

You notice Im not arguing that teachers shouldn't act to improve pay and conditions , I am primarily arguing that without a united front , ASTI simply cannot win this battle, No Gov will concede and then undermine all thiose partipicants in the LRA, it would result in chaos . The Gov would let the education system destroy itself first.

Thats all I was trying to say in my posts , This is a bad strategic place to be , its the wrong battle to fight. its a battle of idealogues in ASTI rather then a huge ground swell of teachers. ( yes Im aware of the ballots and Im also aware of the peer pressure associated with them)

amacca

BoatMad wrote: »

SO the " fair play " argument has little water , teachers are amongst the best paid etc etc
worsening conditions , you mean a CP hour deal that in effect is an hour a week !!, I was talking to new PWC graduates intakes that are working ti 9pm every night without additional pay , !!!!!. seriously

No I don't just mean the CP hours thats only part of the problem. I mean the conditions they are expected to work in and achieve results in....they should be paid far more for some of the nonsense they have to put up with never mind listening to the kind of rhetoric that sounds a lot like the what you are peddling....I mean a push towards expecting differentiation and individual lesson plans etc + reams of CYA paperwork with classes of 30 kids and up....I way longer contact hours than some of the systems they are being compared to and expected to emulate I mean people like yourself thinking that just because one group of people is mistreated everyone else should be too and like it or lump it

I mean the sheer ignorance of that PWC example up there...if you can't see how that proves my point rather than yours I have to laugh

How sustainable is that for those graduates?
Do you really think they will have to do that for their entire career in PWC...would they last until retirement at that pace...is it right to extract that kind of time from any worker just because you can....is it even a good idea for the company...how long before they burn out and have to be replaced or cop on and get a role thats compatible with being more human than robot? Will their partners or kids ever see them if they get up in the morning, go in to work and then work until 9pm...do they have an hours commute morning and evening on top of that

seriously? thats your argument?

well if my argument holds little water...yours is an arid desert populated with the pecked carcasses of PWC graduates chained to their desks.....would they have time for a sandwich at lunch do you think?

BoatMad wrote: »

well in ireland well never know if reforms are " a good thing " or not, cause we take ages to implement any change

Bit of a fluffy one there, If you actually analysed the "reforms" that the govt are attempting to make you might realise they are little more than yellow packing and if you have or plan to have kids and you aren't already sending them to private education or planning to a lot these "reforms" and proposed ones if let through uncontested would in all likelihood affect their education negatively never mind the teacher

BoatMad wrote: »

Irelands educational outcomes are nothing to crow about and never have been , we have as a whole a quite mediocre education system by world standards, for years the church, the police , and the education was regarded as " superb " and above reproach , the first two have fallen from their perch , education isn't far behind.

Maybe its mediocre because its underfunded properly, maybe its mediocre because in comparison to the stellar systems Irish teachers have to work around 200 more contact hours, do that in front of many many more kids on average per class and all the time constantly have their terms and conditions attacked in a society where there is an unjustified lack of respect for what they do and many try to treat them like glorified childminders......maybe its mediocre because the client (to borrow a phrase I suspect you might like) knows all their rights but there is little or no consequences for them when they don't live up to their responsibilities

Maybe if that was taken into account they are doing a superb job....and perhaps even if its not taken into account mediocre might be inaccurate....

BoatMad wrote: »

oh please lets leave the poor unpaid nonsense argument out of it, Teachers are comparatively well paid, have time off and pension benefits not available to a large proportion of the working population.

and lets not get into the amount of credentialism as a value of your job, everyone has a post grad these days , there are PHds virtually flipping burgers

Great argument there....thats exactly what teachers should do if they weren't such suckers for punishment....... leave all the unpaid nonsense out of it and work to rule......

Everyone does not have a post grad these days...that info can be easily found in employment statistics...there is a premium for extra qualifications that take years to attain in lots of roles (as long as the qualification is relevant and necessary) and its there for lots of reasons but just one of those is opportunity cost of getting them...another phrase I suspect you might appreciate

BoatMad wrote: »

and please no teacher has a clue about the conditions in spar. again lets not descent into nonsense comparisons

so you know that no teacher knows what its like to work like in spar...what do you think they never worked any other jobs before working as a teacher or don't have brothers, sisters, cousins, parents etc that might work in other areas...you can't really accuse me of spouting nonsense if we take into account some of what you've posted here so far

But just to answer my own question they do and I am not joking when I tell you that many new entrants take home is less per week than people that make you a sandwich at lunchtime if you have time to eat your lunch that is....it can also be less than the SNAs that work alongside them

BoatMad wrote: »

Teachers are not "overworked" or " stressed " or " put upon" no more then any other group
, in fact they have been entirely shielded from the huge changes in the commercial workplace, particularly the "gig" economy

Firstly...how would you know..are you a teacher.?..have you conducted some sort of exhaustive research on how stressed they are everyone here is unaware of (if so please share).....etc etc

Secondly...the gig economy is not a good thing for almost anyone....do you think that because teachers have been shielded from the gig economy that they should put up with reforms that may not have any educational benefit and significantly reduce their terms and conditions even further?...its a moronic argument I think...hey other sectors of society are being treated like ****...you should too!!......people actually standing up for themselves might actually be good for everyone in the long run rather than what seems to be your approach

by the way I think you are incorrect on that front too......many teachers put in years bouncing from gig to gig with very low hours

BoatMad wrote: »

we need to drop the self generated shibboleths that surround teachers as if they are not present in ALL workplaces

No "We" do not........as much as some people would like to think that only some workplaces are broadly similar...some workplaces are different...roles are different and what I'm saying is not outmoded...its very real and in fact its a recent phenomenon so your choice of noun here couldn't be more incorrect.........a lot of things that take place in a teachers environment would not be tolerated in a professional workplace and there aren't reasonable supports or a system to deal with them (and I'm not talking about teacher behaviour) these things are pretty unique to the role and wouldn't have been near as much of a problem even 20 years ago...but thats just another straw on the camels back I suppose

deiseindublin

Self Employed - so you get to pick your own hours and go in whenever you feel like it, family car written off a business expense, give yourself a pay rise, take time off when kids are sick, take off peak holidays, or so the papers would have you believe anyway.

Loads of perks, well done.

BoatMad

No I don't just mean the CP hours thats only part of the problem. I mean the conditions they are expected to work in and achieve results in....they should be paid far more for some of the nonsense they have to put up with never mind listening to the kind of rhetoric that sounds a lot like the what you are peddling....I mean a push towards expecting differentiation and individual lesson plans etc + reams of CYA paperwork with classes of 30 kids and up....I way longer contact hours than some of the systems they are being compared to and expected to emulate I mean people like yourself thinking that just because one group of people is mistreated everyone else should be too and like it or lump it

I mean the sheer ignorance of that PWC example up there...if you can't see how that proves my point rather than yours I have to laugh

The fact remains , firstly educational outcomes as a whole are mediocre in Ireland, we have nothing to pat ourselves on the back with .

Secondly , The PWC example is merely an example of what graduates and other educated people are forced to do to survive in a modern commercial workplace, I mentioned it in the context that teachers cannot expect to be immune from the changes in global working. ( thats all ) , Teachers ( by and large , i.e. those on CIDs etc ) have the benefit of secure employment , generous pensions, that are now impossible to build elsewhere and other benefits to boot. all I do by this is to point out that Teachers dont exist in a vacuum , a position , perhaps the TUI realised earlier .

so you know that no teacher knows what its like to work like in spar...what do you think they never worked any other jobs before working as a teacher or don't have brothers, sisters, cousins, parents etc that might work in other areas...you can't really accuse me of spouting nonsense if we take into account some of what you've posted here so far

by and large they are protected employees, I suspect very few teachers know what a 50 year old spar operative goes through when suddenly their store closes down, ( or they have to work harder and harder to keep the same wages , and theses wages are low, have no pensions, 2 weeks holidays etc)

its nonsense , to suggest teachers are some form of down trodden mill workers,

But just to answer my own question they do and I am not joking when I tell you that many new entrants take home is less per week than people that make you a sandwich at lunchtime if you have time to eat your lunch that is....it can also be less than the SNAs that work alongside them

I know exactly what new entrants take home and yes its not an acceptable process, no more then zero hour or gig based employment is . I am not saying there are NO grounds for grievances , i am saying this is not the right battle

Secondly...the gig economy is not a good thing for almost anyone....do you think that because teachers have been shielded from the gig economy that they should put up with reforms that may not have any educational benefit and significantly reduce their terms and conditions even further?...its a moronic argument I think...hey other sectors of society are being treated like ****...you should too!!......people actually standing up for themselves might actually be good for everyone in the long run rather than what seems to be your approach

no i merely pointed out that Teachers cannot be immune from the method of working and pay . conditions going on around them. ultimately tax payers put their hands in their pockets to fund education , and hence pay teachers, to suggest that they must suffer while funding increasingly differential situations , is simply ridiculous

Firstly...how would you know..are you a teacher.?..have you conducted some sort of exhaustive research on how stressed they are everyone here is unaware of (if so please share).....etc etc

No, I am saying that a constant refrain of any section of any workers are complaints about stress, over work , stupid procedures, oversight etc , I an merely pointing out that Teachers are not unique in this . ( There are unique that they get 3-4 months to recover from it of course !)

by the way I think you are incorrect on that front too......many teachers put in years bouncing from gig to gig with very low hours

I agree, as I have said , I didnt think there are no genuine grievances , I merely argued that this battle is ill-advised and cant be won ( other battles may have better outcomes )

No "We" do not........as much as some people would like to think that only some workplaces are broadly similar...some workplaces are different...roles are different and what I'm saying is not outmoded...its very real and in fact its a recent phenomenon so your choice of noun here couldn't be more incorrect.........a lot of things that take place in a teachers environment would not be tolerated in a professional workplace and there aren't reasonable supports or a system to deal with them (and I'm not talking about teacher behaviour) these things are pretty unique to the role and wouldn't have been near as much of a problem even 20 years ago...but thats just another straw on the camels back I suppose

Im sorry , harking back to the past is ridiculous, there was a time when many university educated profession were seen as " easy work " , professions were protected from competition , populated by people of influence etc . Today " professionals " are two a penny . we live in a globalised economy ( and society ) and we are all competing with one another in a manner that was impossible 20-30 years ago , thats a irreversible fact of life

.a lot of things that take place in a teachers environment would not be tolerated in a professional workplace

I would dispute that , in fact the rules and processes that exist all through the PS, have virtually no equivalent in the commercial world . dispute resolution, in service training , etc . most of this has vaporised in the commercial sector.

BoatMad

deiseindublin wrote: »

Self Employed - so you get to pick your own hours and go in whenever you feel like it, family car written off a business expense, give yourself a pay rise, take time off when kids are sick, take off peak holidays, or so the papers would have you believe anyway.

Loads of perks, well done.

sure , since I compete with others , I have to work all hours to make the same income

you cannot write of the family car , please study the tax code.

pay rise, sure I asked the DoE for one , they said I wasn't a teacher . Self employed pay took a hammering in the last 5 years

Seriously ,mate , you have no idea what you are taking about ,

so the papers would have you believe anyway

(a) what paper , and (b) are they at the same papers telling us teachers are " stressed " !!!!

all you are doing is coarsening this debate in an futile attempt to counter what I say . The plight of the ordinary self employed person in this country is in fact dire. but of course we dont have the PS union at our hand to force things do we!

If you wish to educate yourself as to the tax code that applies to the self employed and return here , then by all means i will debate facts with you

Loads of perks, well done.

said the 5000 people that applied for 30 AO level jobs in the DoFA, at a starting salary of 28K and some were prepared to take 50% cut in their commercial job pay to get into the PS.!!!

Teachers are not mill workers , They are in fact hold responsible and reasonably paid secure and pensionable employment, The purpose of my companions , was not to equate teaching with say plumbing, but to point out that teachers cannot be immune from what is happening to the world of work around them, nor can they expect to hold onto benefits that have disappeared elsewhere , without going something in return, That as, I have said elsewhere, is not to say there are not legitimate grievances , all groups of workers have grievances, its just few have a " lever" to get anything done about them

deiseindublin

BoatMad wrote: »

Seriously ,mate , you have no idea what you are taking about

funnily enough, I've been thinking the same thing for a while.

BoatMad

deiseindublin wrote: »

funnily enough, I've been thinking the same thing for a while.

I can recommend a good self help book , that may help to enlighten you

amacca

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact remains , firstly educational outcomes as a whole are mediocre in Ireland, we have nothing to pat ourselves on the back with.

The fact also remains which you have not addressed is that the working time, working conditions etc are also mediocre or below mediocre in the Irish system compared to the systems which are achieving "better results"

you can't cherry pick "facts" in isolation because they suit your argument with no regard for contributing factors as if that justifies a race to the bottom and its telling that you conveniently ignored that.

BoatMad wrote: »

Secondly , The PWC example is merely an example of what graduates and other educated people are forced to do to survive in a modern commercial workplace, I mentioned it in the context that teachers cannot expect to be immune from the changes in global working. ( thats all ) , Teachers ( by and large , i.e. those on CIDs etc ) have the benefit of secure employment , generous pensions, that are now impossible to build elsewhere and other benefits to boot. all I do by this is to point out that Teachers dont exist in a vacuum , a position , perhaps the TUI realised earlier

The PWC example merely serves as a reminder of why its good for workers not to roll over and stand up for themselves as a group before its too late....

Teachers aren't immune from anything and certainly don't exist in vacuum....their workplace may be reactionary but every change in society affects their work environment in pretty short order........if this country is serious about education and wants scandinavian style outcomes then it will probably only be achieved by providing scandinavian style resourcing, working environment and respect....not using the Globalisation refrain as some sort of justification for continuing fuel a race to the bottom

BoatMad wrote: »

by and large they are protected employees, I suspect very few teachers know what a 50 year old spar operative goes through when suddenly their store closes down, ( or they have to work harder and harder to keep the same wages , and theses wages are low, have no pensions, 2 weeks holidays etc)

Yes they are relatively better protected (in many if not all cases) from some of those things..again not all..but there are some other things they are not protected from and I don't think a pension (which may not actually be there in the future and is much much less valuable than it used to be for new entrants and may not be as magnificent as you think for others despite what independent news and media would have you believe) is justification for paying so little for what is constantly being touted as such an important role

I hope you are appreciating the fact that I'm responding to all of your points and not just picking the ones where I think I can score points while conveniently ignoring those that don't back up my argument

BoatMad wrote: »

its nonsense , to suggest teachers are some form of down trodden mill workers

I didn't see anyone suggesting that...I am suggesting its getting there if these "reforms" are rolled over for constantly

BoatMad wrote: »

I know exactly what new entrants take home and yes its not an acceptable process, no more then zero hour or gig based employment is . I am not saying there are NO grounds for grievances , i am saying this is not the right battle

Its never the right time for a battle...thats what so many don't seem to realise...a battle means losses on both sides but the sure fire way to never win one and keep drawing an aggressor onto you is to keep capitulating and appeasing......I disagree....theres a way to box clever here and it isn't by picking another battle this is the battle....it just doesn't have to be all out war..if people can do the long term calculation, see past the end of their noses and not get bought off with trinkets.

but out of curiosity....what in your opinion is the right battle?

BoatMad wrote: »

no i merely pointed out that Teachers cannot be immune from the method of working and pay . conditions going on around them. ultimately tax payers put their hands in their pockets to fund education , and hence pay teachers, to suggest that they must suffer while funding increasingly differential situations , is simply ridiculous

Ah you did more than that in fairness, both in what was said and the manner in which it was said.

I do accept your point above...you are probably right but if its not resisted that process will simply accelerate and furthermore theres no point carping about those "mediocre" outcomes further deteriorating when "mediocre" work environments become less than mediocre......theres much more to gain long term than lose in fighting this battle if teachers form a united front and not allow themselves to be isolated and worn down and intimidated by sentiments I consider to be a lot like yours.....

BoatMad wrote: »

No, I am saying that a constant refrain of any section of any workers are complaints about stress, over work , stupid procedures, oversight etc , I an merely pointing out that Teachers are not unique in this .

They are fairly unique in some of the stresses they have to put up with nowadays in my opinion (while I acknowledge that there are some others they don't have to put up with).......I think you'd have to do the job for a year or two in earnest to fully appreciate my point and if the "perks" they enjoy while working under some of these conditions are slowly eroded there will be staffing problems arising in the near future just like the nurses etc...globalisation can cut both ways

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, as I have said , I didnt think there are no genuine grievances , I merely argued that this battle is ill-advised and cant be won ( other battles may have better outcomes )

While I acknowledge the unfairness of asking you to predict what future battles might have better outcomes in the absence of that data I think this battle is the key one not to capitulate entirely on......by all means don't fight this battle in a way that loses the war but rolling over entirely wouldn't be a great idea imo

what benefit do you think that would have? when we've ran away and lived to fight another day what is the next fight and how do teachers know they won't be told again at that stage its all inevitable and Globalisation you know when they don't have a pot left to piss in

BoatMad wrote: »

Im sorry , harking back to the past is ridiculous, there was a time when many university educated profession were seen as " easy work " , professions were protected from competition , populated by people of influence etc . Today " professionals " are two a penny . we live in a globalised economy ( and society ) and we are all competing with one another in a manner that was impossible 20-30 years ago , thats a irreversible fact of life

I wasn't really arguing that if you reread my reply....its not the past I was talking about its the new reality and how unsustainable it is I was referring to....if you look around you you'll see it standing in the corner it has a trunk and big floppy ears but it looks kind of tired, old for its age and its a bit emaciated....oh well at least it knows where its ancestors are buried..it'll be visiting them sooner than it has to.

BoatMad wrote: »

I would dispute that , in fact the rules and processes that exist all through the PS, have virtually no equivalent in the commercial world . dispute resolution, in service training , etc . most of this has vaporised in the commercial sector.

And you in my opinion would correct in terms of some of those rules and processes...theres no disputing that ....but as I said previously you'd have to work for a couple of years in rooms overcrowded with teenagers a large proportion of whom have social or behavioural issues for more contact hours than you should where you have all the responsibilities and they have all the rights and you are expected to achieve an outcome........its hard to sum up in a nutshell.....but imagine having to achieve the outcomes a true authority figure should have without any real authority and thats not really capturing how different and many times difficult a work environment it is compared to what some workers walk into and I say this having worked in the financial sector, in sales, in IT and having moved on from teaching as a self employed business person.

BoatMad

The fact also remains which you have not addressed is that the working time, working conditions etc are also mediocre or below mediocre in the Irish system compared to the systems which are achieving "better results"

no i haven't , that issue is complex and is a function of resources, motivation , process and many other things, its certainly not soley or even in the majority a function of " working conditions " etc . its a much bigger societal debate.

Ah you did more than that in fairness, both in what was said and the manner in which it was said.

NO i didnt , I merely wished to take issue with the notion, often peddled by teachers unions , that somehow teachers are " stressed " , under paid" " under resourced " and under valued as if that was unique to teachers, the fact is that many workforces have similar grievances , the difference is they dont have the same level of power to cause disruption on a national scale ( or may loose their jobs in the process etc)

Im not denying Teachers , may have some , all or none of those grievances, and I have pointed out that I acknowledge their are genuine issues. But Teachers ( unions ) need to stop trying to present them as downtrodden mill workers in the 19 th century

I think you'd have to do the job for a year or two in earnest to fully appreciate my point and if the "perks" they enjoy while working under some of these conditions are slowly eroded there will be staffing problems arising in the near future just like the nurses etc...globalisation can cut both ways

Ive lived with one for 30 years , I know dozens of Teachers . DO they feel stressed , of course, etc etc , but all I said is that this is not unusual and Teacher uniquely , for a variety of reasons , have a considerable number of mitigating advantages not available to others as compensation . Thats the only point Im trying to make here, Teachers working conditions and their perceived issues , are not unique .

there will be staffing problems arising in the near future just like the nurses etc...globalisation can cut both ways

Im am fully behind that , if Teachers wish to leave the " service " or attempt to transfer their skills elsewhere , more power to them , an employer must always be conscious of the ability to retain or attract staff, its why they get loads of free food in Google !.

While I acknowledge the unfairness of asking you to predict what future battles might have better outcomes in the absence of that data I think this battle is the key one not to capitulate entirely on......by all means don't fight this battle in a way that loses the war but rolling over entirely wouldn't be a great idea imo

we are at least approaching the central point of my argument, ASTI cannot win this battle without the support of all teachers unions, The Gov simply cannot be seen to break the LRA or provide concessions that it has not provided to the TUI etc . This is simply not a battle ASTI is going to win , I mean even support with ordinary ASTI members is withering.

Any good general , knows when its time to shrug and walk away to fight another day. Where ASTI to loose this ballot , or even after a protracted period of industrial dispute, find that it had to accept another unacceptable compromise, I think it would be near fatal to ASTI as an organisation

hubris is a powerful factor , but it needs to be seen for what it is, here , a mistake , again , that is not to say the underlying issues are a mistake , or even that ASTI is wrong to highlight these issues , its to say this is not the correct battle to fight.

what benefit do you think that would have? when we've ran away and lived to fight another day what is the next fight and how do teachers know they won't be told again at that stage its all inevitable and Globalisation you know when they don't have a pot left to piss in

my own view is that there is certainly a willingness in Gov to attempt to solve this once they can claim LRA etc is being honoured, maybe in time , a new agreement will be reached and in that context ASTI grievances can be resolved under that umbrella

But today , with the general public still hurting from a terrible recession and considerable public anger, I think its, quite frankly , madness to prosecute these issues in the way that is being considered. The Gov will not collapse the LRA to solve this dispute . That would open the floodgates all over the PS and cause a funding crisis that the Gov has no solution for.

wrong battle at the wrong time. ASTI should have entered LRA , CP etc and then allied with the othe rteachers unions , picked a better time to exert pressure.

The key is unity , and you dont have that today

BoatMad

And you in my opinion would correct in terms of some of those rules and processes...theres no disputing that ....but as I said previously you'd have to work for a couple of years in rooms overcrowded with teenagers a large proportion of whom have social or behavioural issues for more contact hours than you should where you have all the responsibilities and they have all the rights and you are expected to achieve an outcome........its hard to sum up in a nutshell.....but imagine having to achieve the outcomes a true authority figure should have without any real authority and thats not really capturing how different and many times difficult a work environment it is compared to what some workers walk into and I say this having worked in the financial sector, in sales, in IT and having moved on from teaching as a self employed business person.

seriously , I have no time for sectoral arguments, a worker fulfilling an order under pressure of dismissal , is also dealing with severe stress.

Equally Teachers, while, they have convinced themselves other wise, are not really under any compelling factor to actually perform . Most do because they want to ( as do many groups of workers) , but the system has very little sanction for mediocre teachers , as opposed to really bad outlier cases. In private industry , this is handled by dismissal or demotion, in Teaching , really if a teacher wishes to coast , there not much real sanction.

again thats not to claim teachers coast , or whatever, it just that there is really no sustainable argument that somehow teachers are in a unique position

I know for example a self employed person that has become a teacher ( relatively recently ) and is now on a CID, he's never going back !!!!. He's says to me , that removing the fear of financial failure and the consequences for his family , is worth any amount of hassle in the classroom .

( nor is every classroom a battle ground as you present it )

amacca

BoatMad wrote: »

no i haven't , that issue is complex and is a function of resources, motivation , process and many other things, its certainly not soley or even in the majority a function of " working conditions " etc . its a much bigger societal debate.

yes you did...you presented mediocre outcomes in the education sector in isolation on more than one occasion with accompanying phrases like we have nothing to pat ourselves on the back about etc

as if teachers were crowing that they had something to pat themselves on the back with and insinuating that non existent or faked good outcomes were the reason why they were trying to fight for terms and conditions..if you listen teachers are not saying pay us more or keep paying us what you were because we have good outcomes - you brought that into the equation and above is the first time you've acknowledged that mediocre outcomes may not be mainly the teachers fault

btw making no reference to the fact that mediocre outcomes could be a function of mediocre resourcing, mediocre working environment, mediocre discipline {due to mediocre legislation giving everyone the right to education but only very roundabout ineffective ways of enforcing their responsibilities when a certain growing percentage refuse to live up to them themselves - parents and students} until you are put to the pin of your collar and then telling me its a complex issue after previously simplifying it down to the one part which in presented in isolation suits your argument is duplicitous imo..............

BoatMad wrote: »

NO i didnt , I merely wished to take issue with the notion, often peddled by teachers unions , that somehow teachers are " stressed " , under paid" " under resourced " and under valued as if that was unique to teachers, the fact is that many workforces have similar grievances , the difference is they dont have the same level of power to cause disruption on a national scale ( or may loose their jobs in the process etc)

but what you have so far failed to acknowledge properly with some degree of obfuscation is that is those under resourced, undervalued conditions are probably a big contributing factor to those mediocre outcomes and it might be a good idea to not let them get even more undervalued and under resourced for the sake of all the "stakeholders" (shudder) in the system....

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not denying Teachers , may have some , all or none of those grievances, and I have pointed out that I acknowledge their are genuine issues. But Teachers ( unions ) need to stop trying to present them as downtrodden mill workers in the 19 th century

they are not doing that.....referring to some those grievances is not presenting teachers as downtrodden mill workers its just telling the truth no matter how unpalatable it is for some......I don't know what union spokespeople you listen to they don't say half enough of that stuff and soft soap and capitulate rather than correct the half truths and whatabouttery flung at them most of the time in my opinion

BoatMad wrote: »

Ive lived with one for 30 years , I know dozens of Teachers . DO they feel stressed , of course, etc etc , but all I said is that this is not unusual and Teacher uniquely , for a variety of reasons , have a considerable number of mitigating advantages not available to others as compensation . Thats the only point Im trying to make here, Teachers working conditions and their perceived issues , and not unique

With respect thats not even close to the only point you are trying to make here, you've backed down considerably from the kind of points you were trying to make imo......having possibly realised there is much more to the situation than met your eye.

BoatMad wrote: »

Im am fully behind that , if Teachers wish to leave the " service " or attempt to transfer their skills elsewhere , more power to them

you shouldn't be if you want those "mediocre" outcomes improved

BoatMad wrote: »

an employer must always be conscious of the ability to retain or attract staff, its why they get loads of free food in Google

yes they should be and they should also be conscious that the savings they get now may cost much more in the long run in advertising and recruitment down the line just to get back to mediocre if they have their way.....

BoatMad wrote: »

we are at least approaching the central point of my argument,

Come now you are the one who blundered in here like you were going to sort out the misguided cosseted reality denying fools and tell them whats what with a healthy dose of condescension and withering criticism.....if you wanted to debate your central point you could have got straight to it without the pseudo michael o leary act

BoatMad wrote: »

ASTI cannot win this battle without the support of all teachers unions, The Gov simply cannot be seen to break the LRA or provide concessions that it has not provided to the TUI etc . This is simply not a battle ASTI is going to win , I mean even support with ordinary ASTI members is withering.

You could be right....its also may be the only battle worth fighting for the asti.....and there are many ways to fight a battle

BoatMad wrote: »

Any good general , knows when its time to shrug and walk away to fight another day. Where ASTI to loose this ballot , or even after a protracted period of industrial dispute, find that it had to accept another unacceptable compromise, I think it would be near fatal to ASTI as an organisation

hubris is a powerful factor , but it needs to be seen for what it is, here , a mistake

in your opinion you are not the only one who has one of those and yours may not be correct

BoatMad wrote: »

my own view is that there is certainly a willingness in Gov to attempt to solve this once they can claim LRA etc is being honoured, maybe in time , a new agreement will be reached and in that context ASTI grievances can be resolved under that umbrella

But today , with the general public still hurting from a terrible recession and considerable public anger, I think its, quite frankly , madness to prosecute these issues in the way that is being considered. The Gov will not collapse the LRA to solve this dispute . That would open the floodgates all over the PS and cause a funding crisis that the Gov has no solution for.

wrong battle at the wrong time. ASTI should have entered LRA , CP etc and then allied with the othe rteachers unions , picked a better time to excerpt pressure.

The key is unity , and you dont have that today

Unity is certainly the main problem and has been for quite a while but the key here may also be time...and playing for it cleverly rather than rolling over so I suppose I don't share your view that they should give up, in fact I think it would be disastrous ...but that ultimately will be decided by vote and I hope that too many are not influenced by some of the fear tactics and guff out there.

BoatMad wrote: »

seriously , I have no time for sectoral arguments, a worker fulfilling an order under pressure of dismissal , is also dealing with severe stress.

agreed but severe stress and adding to it while requiring mediocre outcomes to become good outcomes is hardly a good idea and thats the end result of capitulation imo

BoatMad wrote: »

Equally Teachers, while, they have convinced themselves other wise, are not really under any compelling factor to actually perform . Most do because they want to ( as do many groups of workers) , but the system has very little sanction for mediocre teachers , as opposed to really bad outlier cases. In private industry , this is handled by dismissal or demotion, in Teaching , really if a teacher wishes to coast , there not much real sanction.

Having worked in private industry I met many more chancers and coasters than I ever did in teaching.I find it ironic that teachers in general might be better off now if they were less conscientious as a whole

and you are incorrect....there are and will be more sanctions for teachers than I think you are aware of (and there have always been less obvious ones) ....what should be occupying peoples minds are the lack of sanctions for a certain small percentage of students and parents that disrupt the whole show..or at least thats my opinion

BoatMad wrote: »

again thats not to claim teachers coast , or whatever, it just that there is really no sustainable argument that somehow teachers are in a unique position

Oh I'm sure some do..and tbh I'm not sure Id blame some of them given the nature of the work and working conditions in some places.....they are after all human with broadly similar ranges of personalities to a lot of workplaces that also contain coasters

BoatMad wrote: »

I know for example a self employed person that has become a teacher and is now on a CID, he's never going back !!!!. He's says to me , that removing the fear of financial failure and the consequences for his family , is worth any amount of hassle in the classroom .

( nor is every classroom a battle ground as you present it )

Good for him and I know people who have left for pastures greener and found them to be not quite as fertile as they first imagined but still preferable to going back teaching are these as valid an anecdote as yours?

(of course they are not...but I suspect a surprisingly large number are not the sort of places that the general public imagine them to be and what they imagine would be more at home in the pages of a Maeve Binchy novel)

MrJones1973

BoatMad wrote: »

sure , since I compete with others , I have to work all hours to make the same income

you cannot write of the family car , please study the tax code.

pay rise, sure I asked the DoE for one , they said I wasn't a teacher . Self employed pay took a hammering in the last 5 years

Seriously ,mate , you have no idea what you are taking about ,

(a) what paper , and (b) are they at the same papers telling us teachers are " stressed " !!!!

all you are doing is coarsening this debate in an futile attempt to counter what I say . The plight of the ordinary self employed person in this country is in fact dire. but of course we dont have the PS union at our hand to force things do we!

If you wish to educate yourself as to the tax code that applies to the self employed and return here , then by all means i will debate facts with you

said the 5000 people that applied for 30 AO level jobs in the DoFA, at a starting salary of 28K and some were prepared to take 50% cut in their commercial job pay to get into the PS.!!!

Teachers are not mill workers , They are in fact hold responsible and reasonably paid secure and pensionable employment, The purpose of my companions , was not to equate teaching with say plumbing, but to point out that teachers cannot be immune from what is happening to the world of work around them, nor can they expect to hold onto benefits that have disappeared elsewhere , without going something in return, That as, I have said elsewhere, is not to say there are not legitimate grievances , all groups of workers have grievances, its just few have a " lever" to get anything done about them

I'm pressing ignore on boatmad. He constantly says education outcomes are mediocre. No evidence of that. He knows nothing about PISA or modern teaching. Despite claiming to be married to a teacher. His main argument is we are in the **** so should you. He is playing the victim card.

Not my fault he has no union or social welfare. Thats for the political system to sort out.You made your bed lie in it. There are many negatives to being a teacher. There is the daily monotony of dealing with kids who don't want to learn and do nothing. They can't be removed which would eventually be the case in the real world as you call it. I deal with more social problems than you even know exist

Security can be a curse as well don't forget that. As for pensions -i won't believe I'm getting one until I get one. If the government gave me an absolute guarantee in getting it I would accept that as part of a pay deal. Everybody deserves a decent pension . We should not play beggar thy neighbor

Schools are not companies.
Boatmad is a man who feels hard done by. Go to your local pub and whinge there. Plenty of people would give you the ear there
Self employed people do deserve better but practically every self employed person I meet wants to be paid cash. Not saying you tax avoid but it happens wholesale. Now off to the pub with you.

evolving_doors

Ok Just reading through there's a lot of stuff going against the charter, nobody aint got the time to clean that up at the moment...

This is now the apples v oranges dumping ground

spurious

The 'time out' room that nobody checks.

[Deleted User]

The problem with BoatMad posts is that he has agenda around the conditions of employment that teachers have and no coherent argument about changer or 'increasing standards' other that its not fair that teachers have the conditions of employment they have.

I have family that are teachers and one always complains about certain co workers who are resistant to change. What they don't seem to grasp is that for those who moan and feel hard done by or oppressed by their work load and such.

They would be like that in any job or role they have, its nothing to do with teaching per say one of my sisters openly says " I have a handy number and it is very family friendly hours wise" but she is a little obsessed with why others don't view their teaching job in the same way.

There seems to be this weird idea from some that anyone with decent condition of employment should bow down with gratitude or something.

doc_17

Did the OP ever reveal their occupation? Apart from being self employed? I really couldn't stand reading any more of their posts after the first few!

endacl

BoatMad wrote: »

Im self employed married to a teacher . Theres not much to pull apart !, in essence you work all the hours for increasing less money with no social welfare protections or pensions ( that you can afford ) all the time , paying more tax then the equivalent PAYE worker !. its quite horrible for the self employed these days ( oh and I have two post grad qualifications to boot )

Sounds like you cocked up dude!

MrJones1973

Public sector pensions are heading towards dustbin. New entrants have already seen that . Unless government issued a bond for my pension I would vote no to any deal that made allowance for pension. I have no clue what it's like to be self employed nor does boat mad have a clue what it's like to teach brats. He needs help as any guy with so many posts has gone off the deep end. Relax boat mad or go completely nuts. I'm not being sarcastic

FrStone

deiseindublin wrote: »

Self Employed - so you get to pick your own hours and go in whenever you feel like it, family car written off a business expense, give yourself a pay rise, take time off when kids are sick, take off peak holidays, or so the papers would have you believe anyway.

Loads of perks, well done.

Not only that the exchequer is losing the 10.75% employers PRSI contribution on his income... And we the PAYE worker are providing him with a right to a state pension for a measly 4% contribution on his behalf. Grand cushy number and you don't even have to pay your social security obligations like the rest of us.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

Did the OP ever reveal their occupation? Apart from being self employed? I really couldn't stand reading any more of their posts after the first few!

I suppose they're entitled not to have to say what they do on a public forum.
.
.
.
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But I'm guessing accountant.