Arlene Foster and the RHI scandal

Jayop wrote: »

Again, widespread support among unionists sadly.

The crazy thing is that it is this cohort who voted for Brexit, to keep Muslims out because of their fundamentalist views.

There is no-one I am aware of in European culture whose religious beliefs are closer to Islamic extremism than the religious beliefs of the DUP.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The crazy thing is that it is this cohort who voted for Brexit, to keep Muslims out because of their fundamentalist views.

There is no-one I am aware of in European culture whose religious beliefs are closer to Islamic extremism than the religious beliefs of the DUP.

Have to agree. Read paisley's biography recently..its dinosaur land without any moving on from it. It's funny how non British unionists are when it come to basic human rights.

midnight city wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how the DUP and Sinn Fein can work together after this. Sinn Fein must have thought long and hard about pulling out. I'd guess they have felt that way for a quite some time. Perhaps even before Foster became first minister. As things stand at the min, they are just part of the NI government and year after year the people are becoming more settled in a British Northern Ireland. Maybe they calculate if direct rule comes back and a hard brexit happens that may open people more to a United Ireland. Or at least get the nationalist people thinking about it again.

I think this is the key point.

It was clear from the last Assembly elections that sections of the nationalist working class population are becoming less interested in the united Ireland aims of SF and more interested in the populist left-wing politics of AAA/PBP.

Similarly, signs of an increase in support for the Alliance party demonstrate a similar move away from the DUP extreme.

The sooner that both DUP and SF lose votes, the better for the normalisation of Northern Ireland. Both parties are full of dinosaurs and those with an unsavoury past.

Godge wrote: »

I think this is the key point.

It was clear from the last Assembly elections that sections of the nationalist working class population are becoming less interested in the united Ireland aims of SF and more interested in the populist left-wing politics of AAA/PBP.

Similarly, signs of an increase in support for the Alliance party demonstrate a similar move away from the DUP extreme.

The sooner that both DUP and SF lose votes, the better for the normalisation of Northern Ireland. Both parties are full of dinosaurs and those with an unsavoury past.

Absolutely nothing of the sort was clear and no matter how many times you repeat false unsubstantiated opinions of your own as fact it won't change it. I know people who would vote for the likes of the PBP but are still staunchly republican and have a desire for a United Ireland.

It's not just SF voters who want a UI despite what you'd like to believe.

Jayop wrote: »

Absolutely nothing of the sort was clear and no matter how many times you repeat false unsubstantiated opinions of your own as fact it won't change it. I know people who would vote for the likes of the PBP but are still staunchly republican and have a desire for a United Ireland.

It's not just SF voters who want a UI despite what you'd like to believe.

They are not false unsubstantiated opinions. The real spokesperson for this modern-day attitude to Northern Ireland with a catholic/nationalist background is Rory McIlroy. He reflects the thinking among younger people in Northern Ireland much more than you or Arlene Foster or Martin McGuinness. The antiquated "us and them" mentality of the DUP and SF has a short shelf-life left even though it had a long innings.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/paul-kimmage-meets-rory-mcilroy-the-truth-about-the-olympics-close-friendship-with-tiger-and-the-important-things-in-life-35349397.html

"I sent Justin Rose a text after he won, I think I still have the message: 'I'm happy for you, mate. I saw how much it means to you. Congratulations.' He said: 'Thanks very much. All the boys here want to know do you feel like you missed out?' I said: 'Justin, if I had been on the podium (listening) to the Irish national anthem as that flag went up, or the British national anthem as that flag went up, I would have felt uncomfortable either way.' I don't know the words to either anthem; I don't feel a connection to either flag; I don't want it to be about flags; I've tried to stay away from that."

"RM: Not everyone is (driven by) nationalism and patriotism and that's never been me, because I felt like I grew up in a place where I wasn't allowed to be. It was suppressed. I'm very conflicted because I'm a Catholic and . . .

PK: You don't know what 'anseo' means?

RM: Exactly. I turned on the TV at home and it was the BBC; I did my GCSEs; I used pounds sterling, stuff like that. So I'm a Catholic but I feel very much 'Northern Irish'. And I never wanted it to get political or about where I'm from, but that's what it turned into. And it just got to the point where it wasn't worth the hassle."

Godge wrote: »

They are not false unsubstantiated opinions. The real spokesperson for this modern-day attitude to Northern Ireland with a catholic/nationalist background is Rory McIlroy. He reflects the thinking among younger people in Northern Ireland much more than you or Arlene Foster or Martin McGuinness. The antiquated "us and them" mentality of the DUP and SF has a short shelf-life left even though it had a long innings.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/paul-kimmage-meets-rory-mcilroy-the-truth-about-the-olympics-close-friendship-with-tiger-and-the-important-things-in-life-35349397.html

"I sent Justin Rose a text after he won, I think I still have the message: 'I'm happy for you, mate. I saw how much it means to you. Congratulations.' He said: 'Thanks very much. All the boys here want to know do you feel like you missed out?' I said: 'Justin, if I had been on the podium (listening) to the Irish national anthem as that flag went up, or the British national anthem as that flag went up, I would have felt uncomfortable either way.' I don't know the words to either anthem; I don't feel a connection to either flag; I don't want it to be about flags; I've tried to stay away from that."

"RM: Not everyone is (driven by) nationalism and patriotism and that's never been me, because I felt like I grew up in a place where I wasn't allowed to be. It was suppressed. I'm very conflicted because I'm a Catholic and . . .

PK: You don't know what 'anseo' means?

RM: Exactly. I turned on the TV at home and it was the BBC; I did my GCSEs; I used pounds sterling, stuff like that. So I'm a Catholic but I feel very much 'Northern Irish'. And I never wanted it to get political or about where I'm from, but that's what it turned into. And it just got to the point where it wasn't worth the hassle."

A United Ireland would sort his problems out overnight.
His predicament is not a good thing really.
New flag, New republic, he and others like him would jump at it.

Wow, one person's opinions when he clearly has a huge vested financial interest in keeping "both sides" placated is now the spokesperson and represents the views of the majority of young people in the north.

Christ Gogde is I came up with ****e of that standard you'd be pissing yourself laughing.

Jayop wrote: »

Wow, one person's opinions when he clearly has a huge vested financial interest in keeping "both sides" placated is now the spokesperson and represents the views of the majority of young people in the north.

Christ Gogde is I came up with ****e of that standard you'd be pissing yourself laughing.

McElroy I follow closely and I followed the agonising over this decision (took about 2yes before he plumped )
It was most definitely fear based. That doesn't apply to most people.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A United Ireland would sort his problems out overnight.
His predicament is not a good thing really.
New flag, New republic, he and others like him would jump at it.

That is a very patronising response dismissing the opinion of Ireland's leading sportsman, who should be seen as a spokesperson for the new generation of Northern Ireland people.

Jayop wrote: »

Wow, one person's opinions when he clearly has a huge vested financial interest in keeping "both sides" placated is now the spokesperson and represents the views of the majority of young people in the north.

Christ Gogde is I came up with ****e of that standard you'd be pissing yourself laughing.

I recognise that McIlroy personifies the fear that republicans have of the North becoming normalised and ordinary Catholics developing an attachment to that state, but it is the reality. The demographic dividend that was supposed to arrive in the mid-1990s and change the political landscape of Northern Ireland still hasn't arrived twenty years later and it is now clear it never will. Just like the tide that doesn't wash over the sand-dunes, the dream of a united Ireland is on the way out. The high water mark was reached and the only way is down.

Again, you present pretty uninformed opinion as facts and expect to be let off with it.

You're becoming a bit of a parody of yourself these days man. Spending too much time with a few of our more staunch posters could be having an effect on you.

Jayop wrote: »

Again, you present pretty uninformed opinion as facts and expect to be let off with it.

You're becoming a bit of a parody of yourself these days man. Spending too much time with a few of our more staunch posters could be having an effect on you.

I presented the evidence of McIlroy's own words. You presented an anecdote.

The evidence is also in the polls that show lukewarm (at best) support among a small minority in Northern Ireland for a united Ireland.

Godge wrote: »

I presented the evidence of McIlroy's own words. You presented an anecdote.

The evidence is also in the polls that show lukewarm (at best) support among a small minority in Northern Ireland for a united Ireland.

You gave evidence of McIlroy's personal views. You claimed that they represent "the thinking among younger people in Northern Ireland" while providing absolutely no evidence that this is anything other than his own personal opinions.

If I gave James McClean's personal opinions and claimed they represented all Catholics in NI despite me having no evidence that they do you'd be rightly laughing at me.

You made an absolute balls of this one Godge.

billy few mates

Jayop wrote: »

Absolutely nothing of the sort was clear and no matter how many times you repeat false unsubstantiated opinions of your own as fact it won't change it.

What's a false opinion...?

billy few mates wrote: »

What's a false opinion...?

Passing off his opinion as a fact is false.

Well done one being even more pedantic in an effort to distract from Godge making a balls of it.

listermint

Wait, did Godge just take Rory McIlroys opinions on a subject. (A Golfer who lets face it has lead quite the nice life) as being typical of the youth across the north and being a voice for the people of Northern Ireland?

Godge,

Try harder man.

road_high

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The crazy thing is that it is this cohort who voted for Brexit, to keep Muslims out because of their fundamentalist views.

There is no-one I am aware of in European culture whose religious beliefs are closer to Islamic extremism than the religious beliefs of the DUP.

On that, NI must surely be the most extremely conservative bible bashing place in Europe? I can't think of a single place like it apart from parts of the US Bible Belt. Europe all over seems to be a bastion of secular freedom by comparison. Is there anywhere quite like it?

billy few mates

Jayop wrote: »

Passing off his opinion as a fact is false.

Well done one being even more pedantic in an effort to distract from Godge making a balls of it.

You do know the difference between opinion and fact right...?

Jayop wrote: »

Again, you present pretty uninformed opinion as facts and expect to be let off with it.
.

You mean something like this:

Jayop wrote: »

I know people who would vote for the likes of the PBP but are still staunchly republican and have a desire for a United Ireland.

It's not just SF voters who want a UI despite what you'd like to believe.

I don't even believe all SF voters want a UI.

billy few mates

It's all just a case of bad timing for the Shinners, Arlene and the DUP drop the ball giving them an open goal to make political capital out of this fiasco but McGuinness is clearly in no condition to take advantage of the open goal because he's too ill to contest an election and wants to retire. The Shinners then decide to rescue the situation by getting him to resign instead of retiring but blaming Arlene and the DUP for forcing his resignation. I'm surprised they didn't go one further and try to blame his ill health on the fallout from the whole fiasco. This whole situation is contrived, the Shinners knew there was no way she'd respond to their calls to step aside when there is absolutely no low that would ever force a Shinners to step aside so they knew by calling for it they would only back her into a corner from which there would be no retreat, the assembly would fall, the DUP would have gotten the blame and the Shinners might benefit from a new election.
That's my opinion anyway....

Charles Babbage

Godge wrote: »

The demographic dividend that was supposed to arrive in the mid-1990s and change the political landscape of Northern Ireland still hasn't arrived twenty years later and it is now clear it never will. Just like the tide that doesn't wash over the sand-dunes, the dream of a united Ireland is on the way out. The high water mark was reached and the only way is down.

I think this can be filed with the British economy "not affected by Brexit" claims.

Northern Ireland has no future. That is not to say that the leadership exists to find a path to end its sectarian existence, but the lack of a path today does not affect the potential for one tomorrow.

Even your mate, Rory, has seen the writing on the wall
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/rory-mcilroy-says-we-must-weigh-up-if-united-ireland-would-be-better-than-brexit-uk-for-northern-ireland-34867231.html

Godge wrote: »

You mean something like this:

I don't even believe all SF voters want a UI.

No not like that at all. I didn't try to say that the people I know represent all the young people in NI.

Face it Godge, no matter how much bs yourself and Billy throw out here you made a balls of this one.

Jayop wrote: »

No not like that at all. I didn't try to say that the people I know represent all the young people in NI.

Face it Godge, no matter how much bs yourself and Billy throw out here you made a balls of this one.

You are putting words in my mouth again.

Godge wrote: »

They are not false unsubstantiated opinions. The real spokesperson for this modern-day attitude to Northern Ireland with a catholic/nationalist background is Rory McIlroy. He reflects the thinking among younger people in Northern Ireland much more than you or Arlene Foster or Martin McGuinness.

."

Godge wrote: »

That is a very patronising response dismissing the opinion of Ireland's leading sportsman, who should be seen as a spokesperson for the new generation of Northern Ireland people.

.

Quite obviously, there are unrepentant diehards who are not part of a new generation, and that new generation may not yet by the majority, but it is the new way of thinking and the dinosaurs of the DUP and SF will lose out in the longer run.

Anatom

My own feeling is that the middle ground, (possibly the middle and upper class, but not exclusively so) in Northern Ireland just want to get on with their lives and to take no "extreme" (i.e. a totally nationalist, pro-United Ireland view, or a totally unionist, stay-with-the-UK-at-all-costs view - my interpretation, no one else's) views on Northern Ireland's political future either way.

Given the many years of disturbances, violence and hurt that the North went through, many people -and I'd venture a majority - don't really want anything to do with coming down on either side and would agree with the sentiments McIlroy expressed in that interview. He didn't want to be shoehorned into a situation he was uncomfortable with re. the Olympics and I don't blame him. He just wanted to be "Northern Irish". Being identified as "Irish" or "British" put him into one of two camps which could have automatically, and perhaps unwittingly, insulted the other.

Having spent quite a bit of time in the North over the years, and having worked with many people in Belfast and elsewhere from both "sides", I feel that most people would just like to ignore the history and just get on with their lives. The peace proceess, no matter what you think of it, has allowed people to do just that and things have improved immeasurably since.

What annoys me about the Foster issue is that we have here a situation that is almost normal in every other functioning democracy - a politician drops the ball on a particular issue, is scrutinised in the media and the political enquiry and media bruhaha that ensues forces him/her to change/resign etc. That should have been the case here. Instead, the politicians and political media (in the absence of almost anything else to focus, on to be fair) have jumped on it and now we have the prospect of a needless election.

Party politics aside, Foster herself has brought this to a head with her refusal to admit anything was wrong with the RHI issue, her alacrity in blaming her civil servants and her refusal to engage with anyone on it. This would be the case no matter what jersey she was wearing. Her last-minute attempt at engaging in talks was too little, too late. Oh, and her attempt to paint the criticism as mysogeny was pathetic.

The sad thing is that the political parties are now jumping to their traditional scripts and nothing changes. Reality will hit home to the SF / DUP / UUP leaders after the election and we'll be back to another power sharing agreement. Not because its what they really want, but because its the only thing that has worked for the past ten years and is the only thing which will work over the next ten.

Foster (and the DUP) are going to have to be taught a lesson here I'm afraid -
the reality of power sharing.

They have never really signed up to the GFA, it is a party bolstered in number by those defecting from the UUP after they backed the GFA.
So to stay in the comfy seats they have been playing a cagey game since, wielding petitions of concern and their veto whenever something is too unpalatable for them. And relaxing back into the old sectarian, 'it was all your fault' inflaming sthick whenever there was no other answer to give.

Republicans have rightly called a halt to this charade. It isn't just about the RHI scheme.
Either the DUP properly and respectfully share power or get lost.
While it is sad to see, it isn't before time in my opinion.
I am not in the least bit concerned by what Rory McIllroy thinks about this btw, I can't see that it would affect him at all. :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Foster (and the DUP) are going to have to be taught a lesson here I'm afraid - the reality of power sharing.

The DUP and SF will come out of an election stronger.

How will that teach them anything?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The DUP and SF will come out of an election stronger.

How will that teach them anything?

I think the DUP will have to bite the bullet and lose Arlene however they do in the election.
They had been looking at a nice run to 2020 with her and were wallowing in her hardline attitude.
That has come unstuck. I predicted it way back - her leadership was gonna be short.

p.s. I don't think they will come back stronger either. The UUP have been landing punches under Nesbitt and the Alliance will hurt them too.

Zubeneschamali

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think they will come back stronger either. The UUP have been landing punches under Nesbitt and the Alliance will hurt them too.

They may well have less seats, but there are 18 less seats total, so I expect them to squeeze the smaller parties, and be in a better position relatively speaking.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They may well have less seats, but there are 18 less seats total, so I expect them to squeeze the smaller parties, and be in a better position relatively speaking.

I think any shift to the UUP or Alliance will be seen as a failure.
But Arlene will have to go before SF will enter the executive.
That will be the lesson.

A Little Pony

Godge wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A United Ireland would sort his problems out overnight.
His predicament is not a good thing really.
New flag, New republic, he and others like him would jump at it.

That is a very patronising response dismissing the opinion of Ireland's leading sportsman, who should be seen as a spokesperson for the new generation of Northern Ireland people.

Jayop wrote: »

Wow, one person's opinions when he clearly has a huge vested financial interest in keeping "both sides" placated is now the spokesperson and represents the views of the majority of young people in the north.

Christ Gogde is I came up with ****e of that standard you'd be pissing yourself laughing.

I recognise that McIlroy personifies the fear that republicans have of the North becoming normalised and ordinary Catholics developing an attachment to that state, but it is the reality. The demographic dividend that was supposed to arrive in the mid-1990s and change the political landscape of Northern Ireland still hasn't arrived twenty years later and it is now clear it never will. Just like the tide that doesn't wash over the sand-dunes, the dream of a united Ireland is on the way out. The high water mark was reached and the only way is down.

Spot on. They have their own country in NI, they don't need an Irish Republic to prosper. They reap the benefits of the Union. United Ireland is dead.