RabbleRouser2k wrote: » When I've shared with women, house sharing I mean, I've had one landlord tell me to 'keep the house tidy for the girls, they'll love you for it' or this whole 'special treatment' talk about women roommates (wear slippers, those shoes aren't suitable etc)-yet my experiences with women has been a tad strange, to say the least (as had this landlord's-he'd spoken to me before about why he'd 'never take on women tenants'-problems with noise, tidyness etc and his luck with them was none too good when I stayed there. One evicted, two more left before the tenancy ran out). Some women seem to think that living in a rented accomodation=owning the property. They get a stark wake up call when the neighbours ring the landlord regarding noise or rubbish spilling out of the bins (issues I tried to talk to them about, but when the neighbours complained to landlord, they listened). In another estate, some spoilt girl (her actions don't make her a woman) completely destroyed a house owned by a former landlord-he evicted her,and her roommates, but I doubt the deposit covered the damage. There has been a certain degree of 'protect the women' but tbh, 'special treatment' has, in my experience, left many incredibly immature. I know women who will actually cry when you tell them, in a normal tone, to just cut the noise or be tidier. They're the same age as Lon, and they act like hysterical teenagers. I've known young women, 19, or 20, who are much stronger-have a better view of men, and yet don't take any critique to heart-when I apologised to one over a simple misunderstanding on my part, she was more surprised than anything.
neonsofa wrote: » I've heard the other way around- "so now you just need to try for the girl and your family will be complete"/"will you keep trying til you get the girl?"/"can't be surrounded by boys for life, you need a girl to be in your corner" etc. In actual fact I've only ever heard comments made in relation to a girl being wanted/needed. Sure I rememeber all the tabloids about Victoria Beckham finally having her little girl. Having said that, in all those cases they already had the boys, but in cases of families with just girls that I know I've never heard comments about future boys or completing the family or any other insensitive comments like that.
mzungu wrote: » Could you provide a few examples please? I can't recall any specific anti-men sentiment, like the ones you listed above, in the media when I was growing up. I would be interested in hearing where abouts in the media (specific tv shows, movies, characters etc) you found it.
I don't see how chivalry would make one feel like a second class citizen and I would not subscribe to the idea that it has a negative psychological effect.
For example, Kids TV these days, and for the last 10-15 years at least, is so saccharine sweet it should come with a health warning to diabetics. There are still high instances disillusioned young men out there with serious issues. This leads me to believe the root of the problem lies elsewhere.
jimgoose wrote: » Strap on a pair. You might even find they suit you.
hatrickpatrick wrote: » Regarding mental health, I can say anecdotally that mainstream 'man-shaming' had a profound effect on me as a kid and messed me up for many years. Now, I was very precocious in terms of getting interested in politics and current affairs (my family is literally comprised of politicians, activists, journalists and public watchdogs) and I was that kid at 8 years old who'd pay attention to the news radio on the way to school and flick to news bulletins in nickelodeon ad breaks, so I'm perhaps not a reliable subject. However, I noticed and profoundly resented from a very early age how boys and men are demonised in the media - boys are no good at school, boys are rough and disobedient, men are violent, men are thick, young men are alcoholic, rude, sexual predators, if women ran the world it would be a better place because testosterone makes men irresponsible, yadda f*cking yadda. Combine this with societal crap - the old nursery rhyme about sugar and slice vs slugs and snails, the fact that boys are instilled with this whole "ladies first" and "never hit a girl, even if she attacks you", the acceptability of "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" t shirts while blue can't say anything bad about girls without adults (rightly) losing their sh!t - all led me to question as a preteen why, because I was born male, I was apparently valued less, was fair game for violence and mockery while girls weren't, was a second class citizen in terms of always having to let girls go ahead of me just because I was a boy, etc etc etc - it would be absolutely ridiculous to suggest that this avalanche of anti-male crap doesn't have a psychological effect. I was an avid reader of Enid Blighton as a kid (I mean who wasn't ) and I remember being appalled at the double standards displayed in one of her books, when the crew visits a nasty family and are incensed that the father canes the girls as well as the guys when they step out of line... It surely sounds trivialistic and ridiculous, but just think how that impacts somebody who is forming their identity, perhaps slightly earlier than many kids but all the same. It took me years to shake that off, I was both in awe of and terrified of girls for my first few years of puberty because of this crap. Can anyone honestly say that it's right or fair for young boys to be subjected to that kind of onslaught of anti male propaganda? And sure, feminists will shout "girls are treated crappily by the media as well" but the difference is that this is being recognised, discussed, and opposed by polite society and the mainstream. Boys are still fair game, and I find that to be profoundly wrong on so many levels.
hatrickpatrick wrote: » Regarding mental health, I can say anecdotally that mainstream 'man-shaming' had a profound effect on me as a kid and messed me up for many years. Now, I was very precocious in terms of getting interested in politics and current affairs (my family is literally comprised of politicians, activists, journalists and public watchdogs) and I was that kid at 8 years old who'd pay attention to the news radio on the way to school and flick to news bulletins in nickelodeon ad breaks, so I'm perhaps not a reliable subject. However, I noticed and profoundly resented from a very early age how boys and men are demonised in the media - boys are no good at school, boys are rough and disobedient, men are violent, men are thick, young men are alcoholic, rude, sexual predators, if women ran the world it would be a better place because testosterone makes men irresponsible, yadda f*cking yadda.
hatrickpatrick wrote: » Combine this with societal crap - the old nursery rhyme about sugar and slice vs slugs and snails, the fact that boys are instilled with this whole "ladies first" and "never hit a girl, even if she attacks you", the acceptability of "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" t shirts while blue can't say anything bad about girls without adults (rightly) losing their sh!t - all led me to question as a preteen why, because I was born male, I was apparently valued less, was fair game for violence and mockery while girls weren't, was a second class citizen in terms of always having to let girls go ahead of me just because I was a boy, etc etc etc - it would be absolutely ridiculous to suggest that this avalanche of anti-male crap doesn't have a psychological effect. I was an avid reader of Enid Blighton as a kid (I mean who wasn't ) and I remember being appalled at the double standards displayed in one of her books, when the crew visits a nasty family and are incensed that the father canes the girls as well as the guys when they step out of line...
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » I think it's more complicated then that-regarding mental illness I mean. There will be some stereotypes here, so apologies, but I am speaking as someone who has both seen mental health probs, and experienced it as well. Women, in general, (And, as I said, apologies for stereotypes) are always seen as emotional-so mental illness there is not so much of a surprise . (on the other hand, a woman alcoholic is more of a surprise). Yet women will seek help, and be more open and comforted when they do. I've noticed, with friends, relatives etc etc, they have an entire 'web' of people they talk to. Even my dad, before his passing, was the same, he had very close friends and family he would talk to all the time. On the other hand...men...well, it takes ALOT of gumption to seek help. I remember I Was 15 when I first realised I was in the crapper because of mental health issues-and I'm not the youngest person I know who had problems. (The youngest person I know who took their own life was 12). But while I got help the first time, the second time, when I was 19 or 20, the the trouble I had to get good help, just good, not great (cos I knew I needed to fix my own issues internally) well, the help was a lot harder to find. Cutbacks, other issues, in the years since, had made it really difficult. There is too much of a 'here's a pill, I don't wanna know your problem' method to it all, that makes it really hard to get help. As for relationships, and being open-well, that can depend. MEntal health is a problem, and I am pretty open with people-I find that it has helped me. It is tricky with mental health, but I find that 'a secret' is not healthy, at all. Some will treat you differently, and others will see you as the same person. While I am not a fan, there was a reason Al Porter was visibly shaking when, while appearing on the Cutting Edge, he spoke about taking Lexipro. There is that 'fear' surrounding it-which has lessened, somewhat, as everyone knows somone struggling with it. (Though the mention of 'manspreading' on the show juxtaposed both the problems and challenges put on and faced by men.) Talking about it is major-having those friends that know is major-it's like, well, if someone had a nut allergy, it is important to tell as many people as possible that you do so that, if you accidentally eat a peanut, they will know why you've collapsed on the ground. With depression, if you're having that 'off' day-let em know it's not them, it's just the disease. Ditto if work has been tought. Yet feminism, sorry, the third wave feminism of today, where one is presumed guilty without proof-that doesn't help us at all. Anything blanket statement is dangerous. And it also doesn't help women either-a constant feeling of victim hood, of 'every man is dangerous, a rapist etc' will do far more damage to them as an individual-I even know one person (personally) who refers to herself as a feminist, and also has a small son, say 'society would be better if there were no men'...imagine saying that to her son and seeing his reaction? In general, what Lon and co will not admit is that their brand of feminism is dying-women, young and older, don't buy it. When so much of it is reactionary, often deluded, and dangerous, to say the least...I mean, look how quick people were to cover their butts when 'rapist' Ched Evans was acquitted? While I have no doubt he was morally questionable, he was not a rapist by law. Yet according to the third wavers, merely talking to her made him a rapist.
ivytwine wrote: » In Ireland I think that's died out a lot but there are remnants of it about. I've heard people say things like "oh I wouldn't know how to raise a girl" and odd little things like that. A friend's grandmother basically refused to have anything to do with her branch of family because they inconveniently neglected to produce sons. And that wasn't long ago at all. Like again this is what bothers me with current feminism. There is the legacy of actual sexism in the west, it's dying, but we have enough on our plates making sure it dies without making stuff up as well.
ivytwine wrote: » I agree with you on the nice idea thing not changing the world unfortunately however I'm not sure I'm with you on the rest. In my experience society in general pays lip service to both men and women's mental health, especially in the last few years. However when it comes to the really really messy reality of severe long-term depression (the long term I think is important to note) or severe illnesses such as schizophrenia etc, the stigma applies to both genders and hasn't gone anywhere. I feel that society is supportive as long as you're neatly crying in a corner for a month or two and are no real trouble to anyone. I also would have to say my experiences, especially with dating men who are mentally unwell, has been one of being shut out completely emotionally. I don't blame them and I understand it, but whatever we are currently teaching men and boys isn't working. Not necessarily the fault of women as a group, but certainly not helped by this particular group of feminists, who may pay lip service to male suicide, but swiftly condemn straight white men for the world's evils.
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » So it wouldn't surprise me if someone makes such a choice, or if they are making that choice. I know it's not politically correct to say this, but there was a recent article in the news about the Citizens Assembly and their 'so many foetuses with down syndrome were aborted' last in so many years by Irish parents. Well, in my eyes, that's what choice is-and with abortion. I have no problem with that. it's the parents choice if they don't want to raise a child with DS, or any other condition. Some parents may have experience of this already, and know the difficulty of doing so. If that is the case, andone supports choice, then no matter whether its choice about gender, medical condition, or the rights of the mother-it's their choice.
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » I would even argue that that culture is here already- there is always the 'oh, just girls then, no son?'. There is almost this 'you've failed as a parent' if you have either only a girl, or one child. (Though in old terms having one child would be called 'a cuckoo'). So it wouldn't surprise me if someone makes such a choice, or if they are making that choice.
Widdershins wrote: » It's a fairly long article and I haven't read all of it but it does mention that incident. I think Shriver only asserted that writers aren't doing anything harmful by drawing inspiration from various cultures/traditions, which is completely sensible. We'd have no art and literature if some of these loons got their way..and I'm reading the article about the walk-out and she really makes a song and dance about it! ''The stench of privilege hung heavy in the air'' someone needs to make a perfume by that name ''My own mother, as we walked away from the tent, suggested that perhaps I was being too sensitive.''
homerjay2005 wrote: » i was speaking to a senior medical official over the weekend and she was talking about abortion and how feminists assign its importance to their cause. however, her argument is that due to sex-selection across the world, abortion is one of the biggest anti woman procedures you will ever get. research shows that up to 24million more girls were aborted over the last 15 years, primarily due to them being female - ie certain cultures prefer boys as their children. wont happen in ireland on that scale you would imagine/hope though with the rising influx of foreign cultures youd never know.
Doctor Jimbob wrote: » Ah I know, I was just having a laugh about the fact that stuff can't even be described without a bucketfull of buzzwords
Wibbs wrote: » Which would be great Ivy, but I have noted down the years that both society and women themselves regard men showing vulnerability beyond a certain "acceptable" point as "weak". They may and do sympathise, but in the mating/dating game such an emotionally open man is nearly always at a disadvantage. Society and cultures worldwide and over time give far more leeway to women's emotions and emotional outbursts than men's. It's going to take more than a nice idea to change that.
ivytwine wrote: » This is where I would argue that traditional feminism could actually benefit men in helping to deconstruct the old stereotypes and reiterating that men can show emotion and vulnerability.
ivytwine wrote: » Even our traditional stereotypical view of the homeless is usually that of a man. Now I know that women on the streets do face some very specific issues regarding sanitation etc, but it's probably because it's mainly seen as a man's issue that that overlooking of women's needs arises.This is where I would argue that traditional feminism could actually benefit men in helping to deconstruct the old stereotypes and reiterating that men can show emotion and vulnerability. However the current mode of the movement has no place for men as human beings. I've a dad who was damaged by his education in the "traditional" mode. I've male friends, have had boyfriends who struggle badly with their mental health. And it breaks my heart to see them- they're not potential rapists, they're people I care about and they're suffering.
Widdershins wrote: » It's a fairly long article and I haven't read all of it but it does mention that incident. I think Shriver only asserted that writers aren't doing anything harmful by drawing inspiration from various cultures/traditions, which is completely sensible. We'd have no art and literature if some of these loons got their way..and I'm reading the article about the walk-out and she really makes a song and dance about it!
Widdershins wrote: » ''The stench of privilege hung heavy in the air'' someone needs to make a perfume by that name
ivytwine wrote: » To be honest I think it's always been there. Men of our fathers or grandfathers' generation just drank themselves to death, slow suicide by another name.I do think that maybe the demise of traditional trades and manufacturing jobs doesn't help at all, but that's not feminism, rather mechanisation. Women are also going through a fairly bad mental health crisis but for whatever reason we tend to seek help more than men.
Wibbs wrote: » True, but one simple reason might be that society values women more as far as options and avenues fro treatment and acceptance of mental illnesses themselves in women. Sure it may at times be condescending but it's there. So for example if a woman reading this thread has to leave a violent partner she has far more social safety nets to help her do so. How many men's shelters are there? Ditto for homelessness. In the west in general homelessness is more gendered. This is a UK report, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't reflected similarly in Ireland. 71% of the homeless were men. Again a UK report but it's the Guardian and they're well known for being extremely "right on" and they show large disparities where it comes to social support along gender lines. Basically society is far less supportive of men who are deemed vulnerable. Vulnerability is itself seen as "unmanly" to a large extent. So it wouldn't be any great wonder why men who feel out of the loop also feel devalued and ignored.
ivytwine wrote: » Women are also going through a fairly bad mental health crisis but for whatever reason we tend to seek help more than men.
Outlaw Pete wrote: » LOL I'm surprised she could walk at all, what with her head being stuck so far up her own arse. .It's hard to believe people like this actually exist. "My heels thudded against they grey plastic of the flooring, harmonising with the beat of the adrenaline pumping through my veins". Would ya fcuk off!
mzungu wrote: » Ah yes, I recall Shriver's talk on cultural appropriation, and her opposition to it, caused a bit of a stir in some circles last year. So much so, one "activist" had to leave the room because it was all too much....and then wrote an opinion piece in The Guardian about it.
As I stood up, my heart began to race. I could feel the eyes of the hundreds of audience members on my back: questioning, querying, judging. I turned to face the crowd, lifted up my chin and walked down the main aisle, my pace deliberate. “Look back into the audience,” a friend had texted me moments earlier, “and let them see your face.” The faces around me blurred. As my heels thudded against they grey plastic of the flooring, harmonising with the beat of the adrenaline pumping through my veins, my mind was blank save for one question. “How is this happening?” So what did happen? What did Shriver say in her keynote that could drive a woman who has heard every slur under the sun to discard social convention and make such an obviously political exit?
mzungu wrote: » I have come across a few theories regarding this (one being in the video posted) and to be honest none of them really hold much water, or at least I am not convinced by them. One thing they all seem to have in common is the missing father figure. It always appears to me as if somebody is throwing their agenda (Manosphere, I would guess) down the readers throat. I think a lot of these problems with mental illness & male suicide were always there (just not as well documented back in the days of yore) so I would not apportion any blame towards various incarnations of feminism down through the years.
Widdershins wrote: » It's a fairly long article and I haven't read all of it but it does mention that incident. I think Shriver only asserted that writers aren't doing anything harmful by drawing inspiration from various cultures/traditions, which is completely sensible. We'd have no art and literature if some of these loons got their way..and I'm reading the article about the walk-out and she really makes a song and dance about it!''The stench of privilege hung heavy in the air'' someone needs to make a perfume by that name ''My own mother, as we walked away from the tent, suggested that perhaps I was being too sensitive.''
Doctor Jimbob wrote: » I know most of those words.
Widdershins wrote: » Just trying to reinforce the point that it's not LON herself that I and probably most of us here are really bothered by, it's the brand of feminism she stands for..
