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Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

gimmick

So this is a thread for your musings which do not deserve an entire thread of its own.

For example

I just watched Card Subject To Change. Horrific to think that since its been made the following has happened -

Kamala has become an amputee

Sensational Sherrie, Paul Bearer and Trent Acid are dead

Had Kevin Sullivan and Nancy stayed together one of Wrestlings darkest moments would be completely different or never would have happened.

Lacey Von Erich almost became a diva. She is also crazy hot. Pure nom.

I also mused that even while Sherri was a dispicable heel while she was on tv she may well have been my first celeb crush.

All this in one lazy evening.

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Looper007

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Maybe it was the whole four horse women thing that masked it but Jesus Sasha banks annoys the hell out of me. In the ring she is going to end up like DB as she seems to take bumps on her neck.

Becky, Charlotte and bayley are infinitely more likeable that Sasha is. I'm talking about both in ring character wise and what we see of them outside it.

She's far better as a heel then a babyface, still boggles the mind they didn't stick with her heel character from NXT. I think out of the other three, she's the one that I think the move to the main roster has made her lose some of the appeal that her special on NXT. It seems a little too much for her, her ring work is reckless cause she's trying so hard to impress. I think maybe a move to Smackdown in the next draft and a heel turn is in order.

I think Becky has done very well out of the move to the main roster, although I don't think WWE are behind her as much as the fan's are. But it was the same on NXT for her, she's always had to fight for her place. She's done amazing, although her losing the title early sucked.

Bayley has done okay so far, She's over with the fans but I think WWE killed her overness a little with that horror feud she had with Dana Brooke. But hopefully she can come out of the upcoming feud with Charlotte and garner that great underdog babyface she was in NXT. Although I have a feeling she is only winning the title to get fed to Nia Jaxx and for her to get a monster push.

I think aside from Roman Reigns, no one else is probably more protected and pushed as Charlotte.

leggo

While I agree with the view on Sasha as a face, I don't disagree with WWE's decision to push her as such. They already had a really strong heel who was connecting in Charlotte so letting Sasha do her Boss character on the card underneath her would've risked diluting and outshining that heel run while holding Sasha back too (since they then couldn't let her feud with Charlotte). Plus fans were happy to see Sasha getting called up after her NXT run so it allowed them to get that appreciation out of their system, and now they can have Bayley get her big babyface run and take the belt from Charlotte (I can see that happening at one of the pre-Mania PPVs in a 3/4-way match where Charlotte doesn't get pinned), then turn Sasha heel for a Sasha/Bayley run and then you've got a REALLY well-established women's division on Raw with three top dogs who've all been given time to develop a connection with the crowd. And you can have Charlotte do a Raw vs SmackDown match at Mania then since she's out of the title picture, which is almost a bigger deal if you bill it right, so everyone gets what they deserve but nobody suffers.

LeeJM

Leggo do you think they could do 3 womens matches at WM? For example Raw Title match of Bayley vs Sasha. A Smackdown Title match of Alexa vs Nikki and then cross brand of Charlotte vs Becky?

leggo

Depending on how much they like Nikki Cross, don't discount Asuka dropping the NXT Women's Title and getting called up too! My fantasy booking is similar but has Asuka winning a women's mini-Royal Rumble as a surprise entrant, then jumping to SmackDown, so it's the same matches as yours except it's Alexa/Asuka instead. They'll probably do four women's matches if you include a big tag on the pre-show to get the likes of Nikki etc involved.

LeeJM

I think Nikki Cross will be the one to beat Asuka but that might not be until WM weekend Takeover and then Asuka to "move up" at the following Raw/Smackdown. I cant disagree re the 4 matches including a multi woman tag or battle royale. Imagine 2 yrs ago saying WWE would have a card with 4 womens matches on it and they would all be to a decent standard and some capable of being show stealers. For all the crap WWE gets it shows they are making progress with the womens divisions

Itssoeasy

LeeJM wrote: »

Imagine 2 yrs ago saying WWE would have a card with 4 womens matches on it and they would all be to a decent standard and some capable of being show stealers. For all the crap WWE gets it shows they are making progress with the womens divisions

If you'd have said that lee people would have asked "how many are you after ?"

Which is a good thing obviously but they have gotten to the point they are at by a bit of luck.

Itssoeasy

LeeJM wrote: »

Imagine 2 yrs ago saying WWE would have a card with 4 womens matches on it and they would all be to a decent standard and some capable of being show stealers. For all the crap WWE gets it shows they are making progress with the womens divisions

If you'd have said that lee people would have asked "how many are you after ?"

Which is a good thing obviously but they have gotten to the point they are at by a bit of luck.

LeeJM

Oh without a doubt. They have been far from perfect in how they have gotten to this stage but right now Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Nikki, Alexa and Bayley are 6 of the most over, well established characters in the company.

Itssoeasy

And Alexa has come on hugely I think since she's come up to the main roster. She is brilliant as a heel and her promo is very good.

Bounty Hunter

Meanwhile I still don't think Nia or Dana are ready to be on Raw. At least Dana is being shielded by being Charlotte's lacky while on the road a role I think Nia could actually benefit from until she is ready but MS Jax from her facials (look to the left, now look to the right with no menace) to her ill fitting outfit that seems like it was going for the Awesome Kong type of thing but instead hugs her figure too much, she just isn't all that impressive yet. In hindsight because of Emma, Summer & Paiges injuries perhaps it's good they were called up but for me both could have def benefited from a longer run in NXT.

Personally I think there will be 3 womens matches at Mania but im not sure how many will be on the main card (probably 2).

The two title matches - Probably Bayley winning vs Charlotte & maybe Becky vs Nikki Bella. Then on the pre show there would probably be another womans match but that could be any mix of competitors from either Brand, say Alexa Bliss & Nia Jax vs Sasha & Naomi or something similar.

ERG89

LeeJM wrote: »

Imagine 2 yrs ago saying WWE would have a card with 4 womens matches on it and they would all be to a decent standard and some capable of being show stealers. For all the crap WWE gets it shows they are making progress with the womens divisions

Sure Mania will probably be 10 hours next year at the rate WWE are over exposing their product.

LeeJM

ERG89 wrote: »

LeeJM wrote: »

Imagine 2 yrs ago saying WWE would have a card with 4 womens matches on it and they would all be to a decent standard and some capable of being show stealers. For all the crap WWE gets it shows they are making progress with the womens divisions

Sure Mania will probably be 10 hours next year at the rate WWE are over exposing their product.

They have done the all day Mania before in 2000 so wouldnt shock me if the Network was live with a SportsCentre style show all day leading up to the main show

sky88

I think sasha is actually the poorest of the horsewomen in ring. She's so reckless with her body it's scary sometimes when she is doing her suicide dive for example

Itssoeasy

sky88 wrote: »

I think sasha is actually the poorest of the horsewomen in ring. She's so reckless with her body it's scary sometimes when she is doing her suicide dive for example

I don't know if I'd use the word reckless but of the four she is the slightest build wise. Charlotte is 5ft 11 and while bayley and Becky aren't 5ft 11 their build is such that that can take more bumps. That's just my opinion looking at the four of them.

leggo

I'd never call Sasha poor in the ring, just having seen her NXT work (and no I don't accept the "they have time to practise" argument for NXT talent, you never hear wrestlers say that stuff for a reason). As a face she has over-compensated somewhat with her high-risk stuff, but then again I only really slate someone for being high-risk when they're a risk to others safety and that's never the case with Sasha. She only ever hurts herself and it's just based on trying too much. Her and Charlotte were both put in a position where they put way too much pressure on themselves to prove a point and stuff like that was a consequence, there are also tons of example of Charlotte choking under pressure (largely on the mic in her case). It was always fascinating how they could work these fantastic, unannounced Raw matches that'd go perfectly, then as soon as you give them build and expectation for a PPV, it'd go to hell (except for the 3-way with Becky, which Becky carried btw if you look closely).

She's trying to do more than she's perhaps physically capable of, that's my only real criticism. The comparison to Daniel Bryan is a great one in that regard. But her raw talent is undeniable. Look at her work in the Becky and both big Bayley matches and it's all you need to see. When all are at their absolute peak, I'd put her ahead of Charlotte talent wise and it's a coin flip between her and Becky depending on what you're grading them on. Bayley is a completely different conversation altogether and Alexa isn't the finished package. Sasha's ceiling, when you take her age into account too, is perhaps the highest of all the women under WWE's employ currently.

Itssoeasy

leggo wrote: »

I'd never call Sasha poor in the ring, just having seen her NXT work (and no I don't accept the "they have time to practise" argument for NXT talent, you never hear wrestlers say that stuff for a reason). As a face she has over-compensated somewhat with her high-risk stuff, but then again I only really slate someone for being high-risk when they're a risk to others safety and that's never the case with Sasha. She only ever hurts herself and it's just based on trying too much. Her and Charlotte were both put in a position where they put way too much pressure on themselves to prove a point and stuff like that was a consequence, there are also tons of example of Charlotte choking under pressure (largely on the mic in her case). It was always fascinating how they could work these fantastic, unannounced Raw matches that'd go perfectly, then as soon as you give them build and expectation for a PPV, it'd go to hell (except for the 3-way with Becky, which Becky carried btw if you look closely).

She's trying to do more than she's perhaps physically capable of, that's my only real criticism. The comparison to Daniel Bryan is a great one in that regard. But her raw talent is undeniable. Look at her work in the Becky and both big Bayley matches and it's all you need to see. When all are at their absolute peak, I'd put her ahead of Charlotte talent wise and it's a coin flip between her and Becky depending on what you're grading them on. Bayley is a completely different conversation altogether and Alexa isn't the finished package. Sasha's ceiling, when you take her age into account too, is perhaps the highest of all the women under WWE's employ currently.

In what way is bayley in a different conversation ? Do you mean in a good way ? Alexa has so much potential and she is good now and she's traveling with Becky which can only help her because if you listen to Becky on austins podcast. She gets the business of pro wrestling.

Yeah and we know what happened to Daniel Bryan don't we ? I'd hate to see the same thing happen to Sasha and if you believe the reports online, then Vince isn't high on Sasha because of him seeing her as a female Daniel Bryan.

Andersonisgod

Kevin Owens isn't connecting as champion and is in the midst of what might be one of the worst world title reigns in WWE history all that despite his huge reputation, anyone got any theories on why that is?

Loughc

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Kevin Owens isn't connecting as champion and is in the midst of what might be one of the worst world title reigns in WWE history all that despite his huge reputation, anyone got any theories on why that is?

They've got his character all wrong. This comedy heel instead of the no nonsense monster heel he was in nxt.

Lithium93_

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Kevin Owens isn't connecting as champion and is in the midst of what might be one of the worst world title reigns in WWE history all that despite his huge reputation, anyone got any theories on why that is?

I'd put it down to his current "best friends" shtick with Chris Jericho, not that I've anything against it, it's entertaining to a degree, but there will come a time when both men will have to be separated from one another, hopefully it's sooner rather than later.. Jericho to somehow cost Owens the title at the Royal Rumble..

As for Owens as Champion, it's kinda hard getting behind someone when authority figures (read: Stephanie) keep hogging the lime light with out comeuppance. She needs to take a page from Shane and just keep to backstage, let the wrestlers go and do what they are paid to do.

leggo

Itssoeasy wrote: »

In what way is bayley in a different conversation ? Do you mean in a good way ? Alexa has so much potential and she is good now and she's traveling with Becky which can only help her because if you listen to Becky on austins podcast. She gets the business of pro wrestling.

Yeah and we know what happened to Daniel Bryan don't we ? I'd hate to see the same thing happen to Sasha and if you believe the reports online, then Vince isn't high on Sasha because of him seeing her as a female Daniel Bryan.

Yeah of course I mean it in a good way regarding Bayley. Trying to compare Bayley to Sasha, say, is like trying to compare Dusty Rhodes to Eddie Guerrero. You could pick apart little things that Eddie does better than Dusty and he wipes the floor with him on a technical level, but that TOTALLY misses the point. Similarly, Bayley has things that you could nitpick about in a harsh comparison, but her connection is so much more visceral and real when in full effect. And that's by design on her part, she's not trying to be the spectacular, high-flying, risk-taker Sasha is, she's playing a different game altogether. Neither is better, in fact one compliments the other and both are necessary, and thus we're left in the hodgepodge that is pro-wrestling.

CastorTroy

How do you think a woman's rumble would go at Royal Rumble? 15 or 20 entrants including surprise appearances. And the way they've extended SummerSlam and Survivor Series by an hour, they would have time.

johnnyryan89

CastorTroy wrote: »

How do you think a woman's rumble would go at Royal Rumble? 15 or 20 entrants including surprise appearances. And the way they've extended SummerSlam and Survivor Series by an hour, they would have time.

I was thinking the same thing or even a tag team rumble, would be a good way for them to maybe switch certain people to different shows if they allowed the winners to choose which brands belt they wanted to fight for.

LeeJM

Ken Shamrock should have beaten Shawn Michaels at Degeneration X in 97. Could have had a 3-6 week run with the belt and dropped it right back to Shawn so Shawn could then face Austin at Mania XIV. Shamrock was mega over at the time and this would have just cemented him as a top guy and even a credible opponent for Austin down the line

beakerjoe

LeeJM wrote: »

Ken Shamrock should have beaten Shawn Michaels at Degeneration X in 97. Could have had a 3-6 week run with the belt and dropped it right back to Shawn so Shawn could then face Austin at Mania XIV. Shamrock was mega over at the time and this would have just cemented him as a top guy and even a credible opponent for Austin down the line

I do agree that Shamrock was fairly over back then but I can see plenty of reasons why he didnt go over then.

Shawn was solidified as the top heel from the SS97 and having him lose to Kenny would off been a bad move for him. As for beating Shawn, yes it may have put him over at the time potentially, he would of had teh rug taken from underneth him had he been beaten by Shawn so soon. Its hard to say he would have been cemented as a top main eventer.

For me, Shamrocks ceiling was always the upper mid card. He hadnt the speaking quailities to carry himself as a top face compared to others at the same time like Austin, Foley and soon enough HHH and Rocky.

That being said I do feel they dropped the ball with him. He should of went over in his feud with The Rock. Having him lose at WM14 was a momentuem killer for him and he was totally misused afterwards.

Itssoeasy

I've been watching wrestlemania 17 the last few days and some NWA shows from 1987.

My random thought is will pro wrestling ever get back to the magic of wrestlemania 17(imo the greatest wrestling PPV ever) and the culmination of the attitude era ? I think everything since and including the current are unfairly compared to that night and the era.

Itssoeasy

Also I think heyman and jr made the event better as I don't think the king would have done as good a job as heyman did.

LeeJM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I've been watching wrestlemania 17 the last few days and some NWA shows from 1987.

My random thought is will pro wrestling ever get back to the magic of wrestlemania 17(imo the greatest wrestling PPV ever) and the culmination of the attitude era ? I think everything since and including the current are unfairly compared to that night and the era.

It depends on how you want to quantify that magic. Will wrestling ever be as popular as it was during the AE, yes probably because pop culture is a weird thing where all it takes is one person/event/moment to make something "cool". WrestleMania now is a whole week long event that sustains and contains 90% of the whole wrestling industry now. The crowds are bigger than ever before and the wrestling on show is unprecedented in its quality.

Now if you want to quantify that magic as the feeling you had/have watching WM X7 then that is a question only you can answer and is purely down to your connection to that event, the wrestlers on show, the stories behind the matches and what it all meant to you.

Me personally I think WrestleMania X7 will forever be unmatched due to my feelings towards the show and where the industry was at that time. Steve Austin and the Rock were at the very peak of their powers and popularity and to this day the My Way video is the Holy Grail of wrestling hype videos. It was the first time they were running a stadium show in I cant remember how many years. WWE had just bought WCW and the possibilities were absolutely endless for where that could go. Vince and Shane was a match we were all dying to see. Chris Jericho was at his peak in the Y2J character at this time. TLC II was on the show only 8 months after TLC I had blown all our minds for what a ladder match could be. For me its a moment in the industry and a moment in my fandom and a moment in my life that will never be replicated. All that combined on one night to create WM X7 for me.

A Rogue Hobo

In terms of a combination of talent, match quality and mainstream exposure? Probably not. But in terms of match quality and mainstream buzz it's kind of hard to argue that it already hasn't in my opinion. This is arguably the best roster ever in ring wise and the last WM was huge even if it was papered massively attendance wise. It's hard to argue also though that wrestling isn't as popular as it ever was back then, people can't seem to look past tv ratings, when in reality ratings are the most irrelevant than they've ever been.

When I was 11 and was watching Austin in his prime and consuming all things wrestling, there wasn't 3 regular Irish promotions promoting regular events around the country much less 1 (besides the occasional IWW supershow that was kinda late to the game. There wasn't any WWE show in the country ever, there wasn't Wrestlemania nights in pubs around the place. There were no wrestling nights in pubs. There wasn't terrestrial channels trying to cash in by setting up their own promotions either. In many ways I'd argue this is one if WWEs most popular and consistent periods ever in terms of popularity and mass exposure even if the figures don't necessarily tell that narrative.

Agent Coulson

Just looking at the Diva tournament coming down to Trish and Lita made me wonder.

Are they along with Molly, Stacy & Torrie the first real generation of wrestler that was able to retire at their peak and be financially stable and healthy for the rest of their lives that they really could stay retired without having to return to the ring to make a buck.

Ben Gadot

With Trish and Lita I'd say they were the start of being able to retire reasonably comfortably while also being able to maintain an income with conventions and that type of thing.

But I wouldn't say they started it specifically themselves. Edge and Christian broke through at the same time more or less as them and seemed just as smart. It's just that they had longer careers that makes it look skewed.

The Hardys for all their insanity and drug abuse at times seem to have more than looked after themselves financially as well.

It's just an evolution thing where the present improves on the past. I mean look at the Young Bucks, who never stepped foot in WWE yet maintain that they are and will always be comfortable while also being able to maintain the family life they want.