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M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

JupiterKid

Following on from the suggestion of a poster, this thread has been set up to discuss the need for widening the M7.

The section of the M7 IMO in immediate need (really a backlog need) for widening is the section from the Maudlins Interchange at Naas to the M9 interchange - basically the original 1983 Naas Bypass and half of the 1993 Newbridge Bypass. Is this likely to proceed in the near future?

Would the central median be wide enough for widening to D3M here? I'm pretty sure it is wide enough on the Newbridge bypass section but I'm not so sure in the case of the Naas Bypass.

Also, what bridges will need to be demolished and rebuilt? Or would it be more practical to drop the hard shoulder through the existing bridges?

What about the proposal a few years back to build a new junction at on the Naas Bypass at Osberstown? Will it still go ahead?

In the longer term, does anyone see a need to widen the M7 to the N7/M8 junction?

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spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

True, but €4 per day at the Red Cow is just moneymaking.

If they want to encourage a load of people to transfer from car to train make it €1 per day, or €2 per day.... to upkeep the carpark. And not for profiteering or making up revenue, like they do at the moment.

How do you know what charge would cover costs? Security, cleaning, lighting etc.
I don't know either but your "1 or 2 euro" seems very arbitrary.

Cookiemunster

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

True, but €4 per day at the Red Cow is just moneymaking.

If they want to encourage a load of people to transfer from car to train make it €1 per day, or €2 per day.... to upkeep the carpark. And not for profiteering or making up revenue, like they do at the moment.

So are Irish Rail just money making in their car parks too seeing as the charge about the same?
You obviously never parked in a multistorey cars parks if you think €4 is expensive.

gilly0512

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So are Irish Rail just money making in their car parks too seeing as the charge about the same?
You obviously never parked in a multistorey cars parks if you think €4 is expensive.

€4 is probably not that expensive, but when added to train tickets, bus tickets, LUAS tickets etc, it all adds up. You are never going to persuade people to leave their cars if you are not offering them an alternative that is cheaper and quicker, so parking costs at train stations should be negligible.

munchkin_utd

gilly2308 wrote: »

€4 is probably not that expensive, but when added to train tickets, bus tickets, LUAS tickets etc, it all adds up. You are never going to persuade people to leave their cars if you are not offering them an alternative that is cheaper and quicker, so parking costs at train stations should be negligible.

+1

in Munich thats the policy and park and rides are between €50c and €1.50 per day, with a monthly ticket being a tenner give or take. Theres also far more park and rides and a few in the suburban towns (say equivalent of Maynooth) would have a proper multi story.

But that makes perfect sense.
If you are enriching the rail company to the tune of €100 a month, surely its in their interest to encourage more people to travel by giving cheap parking, rather than to shaft you on parking on top of a substantial travel cost and then get neither money for parking or a bum on a seat (and €1000 per passenger per year or whatever it may cost)

Sam Russell

Surely the answer to that is to give a monthly parking ticket for the cost of 5 days parking.

[Deleted User]

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely the answer to that is to give a monthly parking ticket for the cost of 5 days parking.

A monthly parking ticket in Sallins is €30. So if you use it on average 22 days per month, it's not too much more than €1.20 per day.
Therefore for regular train users it's a very economical option to park at the train station.

Chris_5339762

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So are Irish Rail just money making in their car parks too seeing as the charge about the same?
You obviously never parked in a multistorey cars parks if you think €4 is expensive.

Yes but I don't park in a multistorey carpark every day.

€4 per day is €20 per week is €1,000 per year (annual leave aside). Add train or Luas costs to that and people just won't do Park & Ride. I wouldn't.

€1.50 per day is €7.50 per week and <€400 per year. Thats more tempting for people.

Or else include the parking fee annually in the taxsaver.

[Deleted User]

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes but I don't park in a multistorey carpark every day.

€4 per day is €20 per week is €1,000 per year (annual leave aside). Add train or Luas costs to that and people just won't do Park & Ride. I wouldn't.

€1.50 per day is €7.50 per week and <€400 per year. Thats more tempting for people.

Or else include the parking fee annually in the taxsaver.

If you have a monthly or annual taxsaver ticket with Irish Rail, you can buy an Annual Car park pass for €220.

Monthly Irish Rail parking tickets are €30 in all stations except Galway and Connolly.

Walter2016

Deedsie wrote: »

Surely cctv secure free bicycle parking at these train stations would be great for people who live within 5km of the stations. Would be free to park, less cars on roads etc etc...

Have a look at issues in Maynooth - many local workers there use the train station carpark and take up commuter spaces.

Sallins thankfully doesn't have a large local workforce as Naas is main working town, but such issues have to be taken into account.

[Deleted User]

Walter2016 wrote: »

Have a look at issues in Maynooth - many local workers there use the train station carpark and take up commuter spaces.

Easily sorted by having a discount parking ticket with a rail ticket and a full price one for local workers.

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes but I don't park in a multistorey carpark every day.

€4 per day is €20 per week is €1,000 per year (annual leave aside). Add train or Luas costs to that and people just won't do Park & Ride. I wouldn't.

€1.50 per day is €7.50 per week and <€400 per year. Thats more tempting for people.

Or else include the parking fee annually in the taxsaver.

The cost of maintaining and running a car is a multiple of that.

_Kaiser_

spacetweek wrote: »

The cost of maintaining and running a car is a multiple of that.

Your assumption being that people will sell the car then? Unlikely as most would want it for evenings/weekends/days off (especially if they are living outside Dublin) so they'll still be paying the tax, insurance and general upkeep anyway regardless.

Unless public transport (and the associated costs) becomes sufficiently cheap that people will put up with the additional inconvenience and lost time then they just won't take that option.

spacetweek

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Your assumption being that people will sell the car then? Unlikely as most would want it for evenings/weekends/days off (especially if they are living outside Dublin) so they'll still be paying the tax, insurance and general upkeep anyway regardless.

Unless public transport (and the associated costs) becomes sufficiently cheap that people will put up with the additional inconvenience and lost time then they just won't take that option.

Why should PT be made cheaper while motoring enjoys such a high level of subsidy? Motor tax and petrol in particular are greatly cheaper than the actual cost of, respectively, maintaining roads and environmental and health damage.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Idbatterim

there is another thread on the n11 widening, one poster mentioned two schemes in belfast, turning hard shoulder into bus lane at peak morning hours...

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/m1m2busways2017.html

gilly0512

spacetweek wrote: »

Why should PT be made cheaper while motoring enjoys such a high level of subsidy? Motor tax and petrol in particular are greatly cheaper than the actual cost of, respectively, maintaining roads and environmental and health damage.

I couldn't disagree more, we already pay some of the highest motoring taxes in the world, and we don't get a lot back in fairness. Yes we finally have a half decent motorway network to be proud of, but we got it 30 to 40 years after most countries got theirs, the M50 was a shining example to the world of how not to build a motorway, not to mention that it the M7 and M11 are already way over peak capacity. You also have to pay a toll or two to drive on all of these motorways, so please tell me how that is heavily subsidised for motorists, the only people that are heavily subsidised in this are the toll operators thanks to the stupidity of the government in awarding these contracts. In 2015 motorists paid 2.3 billion in a combination of fuel and carbon taxes http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/motorists-pumped-62million-fuel-levies-7196743 all in all between fuel levies, carbon taxes, VRT, motor tax, insurance levies etc, it is estimated that the government takes between 4 and 4.5 billion a year from motorists, yet only about 15% of that actually goes back into road building and road maintenance, so your theory holds no water whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that we already pay way more than any other European country for the privilege of driving on our nation's roads, only our fuel costs are competitive with other European countries, but after that we get royally shafted in the form of VRT, carbon taxes, motor tax, levies etc.

Sam Russell

gilly2308 wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more, we pay some of the highest motoring taxes in the world, and we don't get a lot back in fairness. We finally got a half decent motorway network 30 to 40 years after most countries got theirs, and you also have to pay a toll or two to drive on all of these, so please tell me how that is heavily subsidised for motorists. The only people doing well out of this are the toll operators thanks to the stupidity of the government in awarding these contracts. In 2015 motorists paid 2.3 billion in a combination of fuel and carbon taxes http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/motorists-pumped-62million-fuel-levies-7196743 all in all between fuel levies, carbon taxes, VRT, motor tax, insurance levies etc, it is estimated that the government takes between 4 and 4.5 billion a year from motorists, yet only about 15% of that actually goes back into road building and road maintenance, so your theory holds no water whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that we pay way more than any other European country for the privilege of driving, only our fuel costs are competitive with other European countries, but after that we get royally shafted in the form of VRT, carbon taxes, motor tax, levies etc.

How much did all those motorways cost? And how much is spent of road maintenance, improvements and upgrades? [hint - €650 is being spent on a motorway from Gort to Tuam, with a similar amount about to be committed to the Galway Outer Bypass].

And how much of the motor taxes go towards the provision of water and other local authority costs? I think all of the Local Property Tax was handed over to Irish Water (but I might be wrong there).

Current Motor Tax rates are grossly unfair with regard to pre- and post- 2008 registrations. And they are also unreasonably on high engine capacity cars.

Idbatterim

gilly in fairness, motor tax on some cars is a joke, you have always been able to tax a car for very little though, if you are happy with a 1.3 or 1.4 on the old system or the vast majority on the new system, motor tax on its own, is ok...

Current Motor Tax rates are grossly unfair with regard to pre- and post- 2008 registrations. And they are also unreasonably on high engine capacity cars.

there are 2 x 2.5L and one 3L in my household, both on cc. A few things, firstly up to 2L is grand on cc, its the one tax where nobody is forced to drive a bigger engined or emissions car. The old luxury cars are given away here as a result of the motor tax system. Also you can now drive the I8, 7 series for sub E200 on the motor tax rates, so its well and truly pay back time...

Middle Man

Sam Russell wrote: »

How much did all those motorways cost? And how much is spent of road maintenance, improvements and upgrades? [hint - €650 is being spent on a motorway from Gort to Tuam, with a similar amount about to be committed to the Galway Outer Bypass].

And how much of the motor taxes go towards the provision of water and other local authority costs? I think all of the Local Property Tax was handed over to Irish Water (but I might be wrong there).

Current Motor Tax rates are grossly unfair with regard to pre- and post- 2008 registrations. And they are also unreasonably on high engine capacity cars.

I don't recall a time when the total public road budget (at peak) ever crossed €2bn in any one year - that covered every aspect of roads including footpaths and lighting. I am not going to allow any excuses for the powers that be over their failure to provide a proper rail system in Dublin - that was an integral part of the overall transport package. No one can blame cars - blame the inept planning system for our transport problems - considered under investment in our railways and reckless planning practices that forced commuters to move out ridiculously long distances - an example is Longford FFS. No wonder our roads are clogged.

NedNew2

According to the link below tenders have now been officially sent out to 5 prequalified companies. Tenders to be returned May 2017.

https://www.kildarenow.com/news/invitation-for-tenders-on-sallins-bypass-is-welcome/133895

Chris_5339762

May??? It slipped. Was supposed to go to construction in April

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

May??? It slipped. Was supposed to go to construction in April

And that's only when the tenders are due to be in! Could be a few weeks before they get moving....

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

From being awarded a tender to actually starting construction that seems optimistic?

Haven't checked the tender, but a build only contract often has the land cleared and fenced, detailed design completed etc. Depending on kit and labour force, 3 weeks until onsite is possible

Geogregor

L1011 wrote: »

Deedsie wrote: »

From being awarded a tender to actually starting construction that seems optimistic?

Haven't checked the tender, but a build only contract often has the land cleared and fenced, detailed design completed etc. Depending on kit and labour force, 3 weeks until onsite is possible

The article says it is going to be design and build contract which might take up to three years. I was hoping for quicker movement on this project

wotswattage

Walter2016 wrote: »

I should charge for this!

I drive about 80k km a year so have worked out many "traffic avoidance" measures.

For evenings, turn off at junction 6 - You'll drive behind the Topaz station, into Kill and through Kill, then at junction 8, go over overpass, past Johnstown garden centre, follow road along by Naas golf club into Sallins, turn left towards Naas, turn right after lights at Supervalu and that road crosses the caragh road, the mondelo road and brings you to the junction just before Toughers at Ladytown.

20-25 minutes max at peak Friday from time you turn off N7 to Pzifer.

To get back onto the M7 do you head south from Pfizer, across the motorway, then west past Newbridge Rugby Club and join from the Curragh Camp side? Or do you go through Newbridge town itself after passing Pfizer?

I'll give this a try next time I'm leaving Dublin on a Friday..
I've taken the parallel road through Kill and then on through Past Tesco Extra Naas, Kerry group and re-join the standstill at Junction 10. The traffic around the Tesco Extra can be slow and there are 100 roundabouts but I'd take it over staying on the M7 any day the traffic is bad.. Junction 10 until after 11 is pretty bad too.

Getting to 12 would be great!

gilly0512

wotswattage wrote: »

To get back onto the M7 do you head south from Pfizer, across the motorway, then west past Newbridge Rugby Club and join from the Curragh Camp side? Or do you go through Newbridge town itself after passing Pfizer?

I'll give this a try next time I'm leaving Dublin on a Friday..
I've taken the parallel road through Kill and then on through Past Tesco Extra Naas, Kerry group and re-join the standstill at Junction 10. The traffic around the Tesco Extra can be slow and there are 100 roundabouts but I'd take it over staying on the M7 any day the traffic is bad.. Junction 10 until after 11 is pretty bad too.

Getting to 12 would be great!

Bypassing Junctions 8 to 11 altogether would be great!!

JeffK88

Just an update. The trees and bushes Northbound side of Naas J10 have been cleared away. The old alignment of the N7 pre 93 is now uncovered.

marno21

Three years for all 3 parts of this to be completed.

No mention of a start date.

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/local-news/233098/naas-road-projects-will-take-at-least-three-years-to-build.html

pad199207

Seen plenty of work going on at J10 today. Looks like the area is being cleared for new on and off ramps on the city bound side of the M7

gilly0512

marno21 wrote: »

Three years for all 3 parts of this to be completed.

No mention of a start date.

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/local-news/233098/naas-road-projects-will-take-at-least-three-years-to-build.html

I still think three years for what should be a reasonably straightforward build is way too much, this would not take three years in most other countries.