The difference between Aleppo and Mosul?

alastair wrote: »

Assad's regime has been particularly brutal. To pretend otherwise is a bit strange.

It is an autocratic state not denying that but in a region in which sectarianism is the norm including in Israel were you see the break down of law and order in Arab neighborhoods Assad has run a good shift. Long before the Arab uprising plenty of violence was going on in the free and supposedly democratic Iraq. Once again we don't mention the Yemen or Afghanistan or Pakistan that have pretty similar problems the rise of sectarianism all emanating from Saudi Arabia & Iraq.

alastair

Assad was't running any 'good shift'. Do you believe Saddam was running a 'good shift' too? He suppressed sectarian strife under his dictatorship too.

alastair wrote: »

Assad was't running any 'good shift'. Do you believe Saddam was running a 'good shift' too? He suppressed sectarian strife under his dictatorship too.

No comment on the actions of the Israeli gvt in Gaza or the West Bank the usual anti Syrian argument that President Assad was a ruthless autocrat. He has the popularity of the majority of the people (both Shia & non Shia) and the groups he suppressed were the Muslim Brotherhood which adheres to the Saudi views on religious beliefs and the hardcore Islamists who don't accept free and fair elections.

alastair

KingBrian2 wrote: »

No comment on the actions of the Israeli gvt in Gaza or the West Bank the usual anti Syrian argument that President Assad was a ruthless autocrat. He has the popularity of the majority of the people (both Shia & non Shia) and the groups he suppressed were the Muslim Brotherhood which adheres to the Saudi views on religious beliefs and the hardcore Islamists who don't accept free and fair elections.

The popularity of Assad is highlighted quite effectively by the protests, uprising, and subsequent fragmentation of Syrian society in the civil war. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement for the man's mandate to govern. The Muslim Brotherhood most definitely do not adhere to Saudi style Salafist views. They were not the only body suppressed by the Sssad regime.

BoJack Horseman

alastair wrote: »

The popularity of Assad is highlighted quite effectively by the protests, uprising, and subsequent fragmentation of Syrian society in the civil war. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement for the man's mandate to govern.

You know what they say about hereditary dictatorships...... they are always popular with the people.... too popular to bother with democratic legitimacy!

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You know what they say about hereditary dictatorships...... they are always popular with the people.... too popular to bother with democratic legitimacy!

President Bashar Al Assad performed one of the most important duties any country must undertake which is to defend the country from attack. Saudi backed terrorists trying impose sharia law in Iraq and Syria and Western forces trying to destabilize the region.

When it comes to Syria it is a case of free and fair elections for some, miniature flags for all. The simple fact is that the majority of the population supported his rule and the protests were largely organized from abroad by often extreme Islamists. French Jihadists heading towards Syria to perpetrate atrocities as occurred in Iraq to make the country ungovernable. The destruction of Mosques and breaking prisoners out of jails.

alastair

KingBrian2 wrote: »

President Bashar Al Assad performed one of the most important duties any country must undertake which is to defend the country from attack. Saudi backed terrorists trying impose sharia law in Iraq and Syria and Western forces trying to destabilize the region.

When it comes to Syria it is a case of free and fair elections for some, miniature flags for all. The simple fact is that the majority of the population supported his rule and the protests were largely organized from abroad by often extreme Islamists. French Jihadists heading towards Syria to perpetrate atrocities as occurred in Iraq to make the country ungovernable. The destruction of Mosques and breaking prisoners out of jails.

The actual simple fact is that there were no free and fair elections in Syria, and that the protests, which led to violent suppression by Assad's regime were entirely indigenous, before foreign players came in to support either side of the civil conflict.

alastair wrote: »

The actual simple fact is that there were no free and fair elections in Syria, and that the protests, which led to violent suppression by Assad's regime were entirely indigenous, before foreign players came in to support either side of the civil conflict.

Well that is plainly untrue. Parliamentary elections were held before late 00's and various political parties were even released from prison. The hardline Islamists who don't recognize the political process were not involved in any talks with the gvt as they don't believe in the rule of law or democracy. As part of agreements with other nations President Assad was introducing a raft of internationally approved best standards that would apply to Syria. None of which offered to hardline Islamists would gain much traction.

Dohnjoe

KingBrian2 wrote: »

He has the popularity of the majority of the people (both Shia & non Shia)

Parliamentary elections were held before late 00's

Making up and repeating your own facts doesn't make them any more true

Assad has never been in an unrigged election (I have posted the results of these fake elections before) He was handed power via nepotism.

The people of Syria never chose him as a leader. Opposition was effectively banned.

Likewise Kim Jung Un has also never been in an unrigged election and was handed power via nepotism, opposition banned

Two very different regimes - both dictatorships

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Making up and repeating your own facts doesn't make them any more true

Assad has never been in an unrigged election (I have posted the results of these fake elections before) He was handed power via nepotism.

The people of Syria never chose him as a leader. Opposition was effectively banned.

Likewise Kim Jung Un has also never been in an unrigged election and was handed power via nepotism, opposition banned

Two very different regimes - both dictatorships

You can't talk of free and fair elections when the opposition don't even recognize the authority of the government rather they believe in a Saudi style state. Also the Syrians would not be able to determine the outcome of the election as foreign Saudi money would be provided to the opposition.

johnp001

Robert Parry on the situation in Aleppo referencing a NYT article from last Friday:
NYT Admits Key Al Qaeda Role in Aleppo

Breaking news today about the situation in Aleppo:
Russia says ceasefire in Syria's Aleppo in place unless militants attack

Regarding the elections etc, as mentioned in the post above, the West's alliance with Saudi Arabia to bring democracy to Syria or Iraq is patently ludicrous.

Elmer Blooker

With the first anniversary of the Paris terror attacks only days away its good to see France based Reporters Without Borders (RSF) are marking it with dignity, respect and good taste. They have decided to award the 2016 "Press Freedom Award" to a jihadi terrorist! Have a look at this "citizen journalist" and his idea of freedom in the video. If only Goebbels was around to witness this!

https://off-guardian.org/2016/11/08/reporters-without-borders-awards-2016s-press-freedom-award-to-jihadi-partisan-in-syria/

The award will be presented in Strasbourg Tuesday on the sidelines of the World Forum for Democracy, a meeting organised by the Council of Europe.

The collapse of western civilisation is upon us!

Disgusting.

See that the Syrian army have gained control of the 1070 complex in Aleppo. That being said there seems to be no massive Russian air force blitz to correspond with the US election, that some had forecast.

I'd imagine Putin would want to keep out of the news until after the election, as Hillary was playing up "the Russian threat" as much as possible in her campaign. He wouldn't want to risk helping her, because The Donald would be much more co-operative in terms of combatting the spread of Islamic fundamentalism in the ME, and also in divvying up the arctic regions for oil and gas exploration, as the ice thaws up there.

recedite wrote: »

I'd imagine Putin would want to keep out of the news until after the election, as Hillary was playing up "the Russian threat" as much as possible in her campaign. He wouldn't want to risk helping her, because The Donald would be much more co-operative in terms of combatting the spread of Islamic fundamentalism in the ME, and also in divvying up the arctic regions for oil and gas exploration, as the ice thaws up there.

Very good point. Would imagine a flurry of activity in the week after the election.

Also an interesting situation is developing with respect to who gets to plant their flag in Raqqa after IS are defeated.
The Yanks have decided to skirt around Mosul as that offensive is getting bogged down by the kind of kamikaze resistance they haven't seen since Iwo Jima, bypassing it to try to get their friendly Syrian Kurd allies to take Raqqa.

The problem for the Yanks is that the IS capital Raqqa is outside the Kurdish region. If Kurdish Peshmerga fight and die there, it will only be because they have been duped and their leaders have been bribed by US agents.

The local Sunnis are nearly all involved in IS or Al Quaeda. So there's a shortage of suitable manpower.
The big danger is Turkey, biding its time for a chance to annex a big chunk of Syria. The US military met the Turks last Sunday. Depending on who you believe, Erdogan has agreed to cooperate with the US plan, or not.
In favour of a deal, we have...

Sunday’s meeting reinforced a longstanding agreement that the US-led coalition would not move ahead with the seizure of Raqqa, “without incorporating the Turks and their perspective into our plans,” according to Dunford.
The Turkish army said in a statement that the military heads had discussed “the methods of a common struggle” against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, “especially in Al Bab and Raqqa in coming days.”

Against, we have..

Turkey's president said on Monday it is "naive" to use Syrian Kurdish fighters - whom he branded terrorists - to retake the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group's stronghold of Raqqa.

If Putin is as smart as I think he is, he will have mended relations with Erdogan (seems to be already done, since that incident with the downed plane) and come to some arrangement with him (unknown).

The possible outcome then is that the "naive" Kurds attack IS in Raqqa, backed by coalition air support. Putin sits back and waits while the two sides grind each other down. Then Turkey moves in, finishes off the Kurds and seizes a "buffer zone" in Northern Syria - the Kurdish part.
Assad, backed by Russian air power, finishes off the IS resistance in the Sunni part, and plants the Syrian flag in Raqqa. US special forces then forced to retreat back across the border to Iraq.
US President then claims "victory" over IS, "major operations completed" in the war, and "peace restored" to Syria (to much relief and applause at home)

See that the Syrian army is making strong gains in Aleppo, including civilians moving from the eastern part to government areas. The momentum seems to be lagging towards Raqqa. Instead increased uncertainty towards who will capture Al Bab from Islamic State.

johnp001

Two news reports from yesterday on the humanitarian crisis in Mosul

United Nations wrote:

Nearly half of children in Mosul now cut off from clean water as conflict intensifies – UNICEF
30 November 2016 – Destruction of a major water pipeline has left nearly half of the children in the Iraqi battleground city of Mosul cut off from access to clean water, the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) said today.

Nearly 300,000 children and their families lost access to one of the three major water conduits in eastern Mosul amid the military’s ongoing operations to wrest control of the city from terrorists. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/Da’esh) currently controls part of the city, where the broken pipeline is located, making it very hard to access and repair quickly.

“Children and their families are facing a horrific situation in Mosul. Not only are they in danger of getting killed or injured in the cross-fire, now potentially more than half a million people do not have safe water to drink,” Peter Hawkins, UNICEF Representative in Iraq said in a news release.
More...

Reuters wrote:

Mosul food, water reserves dwindle as fighting cuts off supplies

17h ago | 01:03
No food or water in Iraq's Mosul
X
By Isabel Coles and Saif Hameed | MOSUL/BAGHDAD, IRAQ
The United Nations issued a fresh warning on Wednesday about the humanitarian situation in eastern Mosul where the U.S.-backed Iraqi army is locked in heavy fighting with Islamic State militants.

More than six weeks into the offensive against Islamic State's last major city stronghold in Iraq, the army is trying to dislodge militants dug in among civilians in the eastern districts, the only side Iraqi troops have been able to breach.

"The situation in eastern Mosul city close to the front lines remains fraught with danger for civilians. Mortar and gunfire continue to claim lives," the U.N. humanitarian coordinator's office said. "The limited supplies of food and water are running out, amid concerning reports of food insecurity emerging from the city."

Water was cut to 650,000 people - or 40 percent of total residents in the city - when a pipeline was hit during fighting, a local official said on Tuesday.

With winter setting in, aid workers say a full siege is developing around the city and poor families are struggling to feed themselves as prices rise sharply.

The longer the conflict drags on, the more civilians will suffer as they are also exposed to violence from the militants bent on crushing any opposition to their rule.
More...

Various sources reporting that large numbers of rebels are accepting a deal that has them evacuating out of Aleppo. If so will be interesting to see where the focus of fighting shifts, possibly Idlib or East Ghouta. On a personal note, really didn't expect Aleppo to fall before Mosul.

Morale is very low among the remaining rebels; at this stage they know the end is nigh. President Trump will take the reins in January and he is not sympathetic to them, so they can expect to lose their US support and that will be the end of them.

"We" in the EU are now trying to bribe Assad into letting some of them set up an independent Islamicist enclave. Its an offer he would be stupid to accept. A nice little Trojan horse... always beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

Quite a few developments with regards ISIS, stiff resistance in Mosul and conflicting reports over Palmayra. As if to prove they haven't gone away, the Islamic state seems to have made a concentrated effort to retake Palmayra.

Gatling

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Quite a few developments with regards ISIS, stiff resistance in Mosul and conflicting reports over Palmayra. As if to prove they haven't gone away, the Islamic state seems to have made a concentrated effort to retake Palmayra.

Yeah it's going on for 3 or 4 days russian media is reporting they have destroyed them from the air ,
Russia is doing exactly what they did in Afghanistan bombing everything and anything to gain a victory ,didn't work then and it won't work now ,

It's going to take several hundred thousand boots on the ground and russia won't commit to that sooner or later assad is going to run out of Iranians and other to fight on the ground,
A lot of reports saying the pro assad forces essentially ran way from the isis assault

Came out to today on CNN that ISIS relocated their forces from Raqqa to the ancient region of Palmayra. The Russians are bombing from the air in a joint up offensive with the Syrian army on the ground. Here's hoping they can repel the forces from an area that had been retaken by government forces. In Iraq the army is making steady yet slow slog into the North of country. Reports coming out from various news sources of growing concerns among the Sunni's of how the Baghdad gvt is dealing with the war.

Gatling

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Came out to today on CNN that ISIS relocated their forces from Raqqa to the ancient region of Palmayra. The Russians are bombing from the air in a joint up offensive with the Syrian army on the ground. Here's hoping they can repel the forces

Most of the reports are saying Syrians or whoever else was holding Palmayra fled after 3 days ,
This is going to be repeated across syria for another few years till either assad goes or gets killed ,
He's been bled dry and russian planes can only drop a handful of bombs ,
With no army on the ground they will only delay the what's coming eventually

Gatling wrote: »

Most of the reports are saying Syrians or whoever else was holding Palmayra fled after 3 days ,
This is going to be repeated across syria for another few years till either assad goes or gets killed ,
He's been bled dry and russian planes can only drop a handful of bombs ,
With no army on the ground they will only delay the what's coming eventually

Actually the Syrian forces have been doing remarkably well. Retaking Aleppo as President Bashar Al Assad said he said the army would and Russian involvement in the war is legal as per the right of individual states to request assistance from an ally. Should Turkey be attacked tomorrow America, France, Germany would come to Turkey's aid. You will find this situation is more or less turning into another South Vietnam for the Americans.

johnp001

Heard Newstalk this afternoon reporting that "250,000" civilians are still trapped in Eastern Aleppo. That would make Aleppo by far the most densely populated city in the world seeing as the militant held territory is now only about 6 sq km.

Gatling

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Actually the Syrian forces have been doing remarkably well. Retaking Aleppo as President Bashar Al Assad .

He hasn't taken Aleppo and going by the fall of Palmayra to isis again, I think it's safe to say Aleppo won't be falling completely ,if anything has been proven wrong ,we've been repeatedly told Aleppo has been surrounded and fallen several times in the last 4 years alone

Gatling wrote: »

He hasn't taken Aleppo and going by the fall of Palmayra to isis again, I think it's safe to say Aleppo won't be falling completely ,if anything has been proven wrong ,we've been repeatedly told Aleppo has been surrounded and fallen several times in the last 4 years alone

The conflict is still ongoing. The Syrian army has routed Jihadi expansion in the east of the country and areas are coming under gvt control. What is needed now is for the medical services to have access to these zones so that civilians can be helped. Medical agencies also should provide aid to both sides in the conflict.