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So whats the bad aspects to Scandinavian living?

NIMAN

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

I'll start.

1) I know that they have higher taxes than most, which of course wouldn't go down too well in most places.

2) Denmark is among one of the highest users of anti-depressants per capita

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Greentopia

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

I hate that word. It sounds like the name of a dog or something. Whats wrong with Nordic if you think is Scandinavian too much bother to type?

Nordic is not interchangeable with Scandinavian. I meant Scandinavian but was in hurry typing. God ya have little to complain about :rolleyes:

Mantis Toboggan

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

Unfortunately Ireland is slowly moving that way each year.

The PC brigade has been growing steadily here year on year.

Annasopra

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Nothing wrong with high taxes if you get something in return.

Agreed. I would definitely pay their tax rates if
A) I got their level of public services

Wage rates were the same

PhoenixParker

Greentopia wrote: »

Has that been your experience when you lived there then? because it certainly was not mine. Why would good Govt. supports impact on interpersonal relationships?? what is your evidence to support that?

My husbands. He lived there for 25 years from the age of 10.

The supermarket and general keep to themselves ness is a cultural thing. I know many people who like you prefer it to Irelands superficial friendliness and that's fair enough but to some of us it's a distinct disadvantage to a location, which after all is what the thread is about.

Sharing a casual smile, a joke, laughing around a table of friends and family for me that's the start of joyfulness, nothing to do with getting hammered. Maybe it's that I'm older but Ireland feels like it's moved a lot away from the focus on alcohol in the last number of years. Scandinavia is no saint when it comes to alcohol themselves.

Greentopia

fits wrote: »

I thought of some more. In Finland the cost of food is super high (especially where i was, long transport distances). And there isnt really a dining out culture.

Yes that was one of the "bad aspects" if you can call it so, of Sweden too. Not a huge difference though in fairness, mostly on imported food. Swedish brands were more reasonable generally I found.

Surely there are plenty of nice restaurants in the towns and cities there no? even if the locals didn't avail of them much?

fits wrote: »

I actually spent way less money though due to not needing a car. I cycled everywhere in temps down to -25. The footpaths and cyclepaths are shared and its not an issue. Pedestrians stay to side and cyclists dont feel the need to bomb around. Life feels simpler there. Better work life balance for sure. Most people just go to cottages for their long summer holidays. The summers are lovely actually and so is proper winter. Its the dark months of october,november and april that are the worst.

All the same positives I found in Gothenburg. Loved the fact I didn't have to own a car there. In Gothenburg most cycle paths are separated from the road by curbs or buffer zones so it felt really safe to ride my bike there, even in the two way cycle paths.

I read a figure recently that only 14% of the citizens of Copenhagen own a car, such is the public transport system and the fact that cycling facilities are so well developed that cars are simply deemed not necessary to get around.

"Life feels simpler there"-that was exactly my feelings when I lived in Sweden. Simpler and calmer.

Having all your basic needs met even if you are on a comparatively low salary and knowing you can change careers and be supported well doing so by the State is a comforting feeling. Or you know the option is there to go back to college or University to change careers because it's affordable; and not having to worry if you can pay your bills makes life a lot easier.

Also you know that even if you lost your job the social welfare system would look after you until you found another one. You would never be homeless unless you became a complete drug or alcohol addict who never paid their rent for example, and even then you would be given help to get back on your feet as they are view them as people who have illnesses that should be treated, not criminals to be locked away.

A negative aspect I did find was the discrimination in the labour market against anyone whose surname wasn't ethnically Swedish-that is to say those who are from an African or Middle Eastern origin in particular. Irish, English or any other Anglo names are not a problem as we're seen as 'cool' or sufficiently similar to them culturally and in skin colour and religion.

But then they wonder why they end up with disenfranchised people in some immigrant suburbs who are angry with the way they are treated and the disproportionally high unemployment and incarceration rates among these populations? good integration of non-native populations still has a long way to go in Sweden.

Greentopia

Winterlong wrote: »

I spent time in sweden a few years ago. It's not that great to be honest. Very expensive.
The food is too meaty for my liking.

Only expensive in some aspects. Food is dear alright but good quality. Clothing is reasonable and rents, healthcare and childcare far less expensive than here. Like by miles.

I don't eat meat and it's no problem now to find lots of non-meat options there. There are loads of vegan options in all the supermarkets and vegan restaurants in all the cities anyway.

Winterlong wrote: »

then there is their liking for snus. WTF is going on with that?

Agree with you there, rotten stuff.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

That's real lunatic taking over the asylum sh1te.

GreenFolder2

I think there's a lot of stereotyping and grass is always greener stuff going on here.

I've lived in both and also in the USA.

Ireland's actually far more similar to Scandinavia than we think when you compare it with parts of the US. We've an expectation of quality public services, even if they're not always delivered. I genuinely don't find Irish people are that hostile to paying tax either. A lot of Americans I know have very extreme views that there simply shouldn't be any safety net and that if you can't generate income you shouldn't be helped at all.

I also found the Irish (while later to the party) are much like the Nordic neighbours in being largely post-religious where religion is more of a thing in the cultural backdrop. I find a higher % of Americans are very overly religious and it's a big part of political life. I was actually yelled at by a colleague when I said I didn't believe in God and likely actually overlooked for promotion in the USA where as I think in Ireland or anywhere in northern Europe that wouldn't be any issue. That's despite the history of legally established state churches in Nordic countries and quasi established churches here in Ireland. American politics and contemporary culture just seems to have a big chunk of extreme religious influences.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Nordic climate (except maybe Denmark) requires huge degrees of social cooperation and organisation to survive. I think that's largely where the systems and very highly organised vibe comes from. Bad planning or disorganisation in many parts of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland would result in death due to the extreme winters where in Ireland it's likely to result in being a bit wet.

The Netherlands also has a touch of that because they live in a country that's only possible because of extreme engineering to keep the sea at bay. If they don't organise well, they're underwater.

Ireland to me is very very like France, Belgium, the uk etc ... Organised but not quite as extremely so as those countries.

As places to live, I would feel quite safe and relaxed in any of them (the uk increasingly less so, but I think that's just a temporary dose of Toryitis that will pass with time).

lawred2

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

That is not necessarily a negative thing.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/worlds-happiest-countries-take-most-antidepressants

Nah. Much healthier to hide it and pretend all is well.

Greentopia

PhoenixParker wrote: »

My husbands.

More than one? sorry... :pac:

PhoenixParker wrote: »

He lived there for 25 years from the age of 10.

The supermarket and general keep to themselves ness is a cultural thing. I know many people who like you prefer it to Irelands superficial friendliness and that's fair enough but to some of us it's a distinct disadvantage to a location, which after all is what the thread is about.

Yep fair enough, and I don't think it's always superficial here. Most Irish people who are friendly are genuinely so in my experience. It can be a lovely trait even for an introvert like me, so long as it doesn't doesn't cross over into intrusive behaviour.

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Sharing a casual smile, a joke, laughing around a table of friends and family for me that's the start of joyfulness, nothing to do with getting hammered. Maybe it's that I'm older but Ireland feels like it's moved a lot away from the focus on alcohol in the last number of years. Scandinavia is no saint when it comes to alcohol themselves.

Yes there is an ease of communication with others here that is nice generally. But quite honestly I'm also older and have travelled a fair bit and I've not found that anywhere else either so I don't Sweden is so different to Germany or France or most other European countries I can think of in people being more reserved with strangers than here.

I think if you have friends and family around you anywhere will feel more at home. I didn't have family in Sweden but I had close friends there and they were/are good and kind people.

No indeed Scandinavia is no saint with alcohol but at least it's more reigned in and much more tightly regulated than here. They have done a lot to discourage excessive alcohol consumption-very high taxes and alcohol cost in pubs, the restriction on the availability of it to the State Systembolaget monopoly only, laws prohibiting discounts on alcohol and so on help curb their drinking habits.

And their Lutheran values of course that means it's not acceptable to be seen drunk in public during the week and the temperance movement that was strong there means there is not the same view of alcohol there as we have here. Yes they do go out and get wasted, but it's kept to the weekend only or holidays like Midsommer, and Swedes don't get violent and cause the kind of mayhem we often see here on the streets.

I agree there seems to be somewhat less emphasis on alcohol as being the only way to have a good time here, but I was in Waterford recently at around 2 am on a weekend and it was horrible.
Trying to avoid walking on puke, people walking in front of cars drunk, young girls lying down on the footpaths outside night clubs not being able to stand up they were so drunk shoes off in mini skirts oblivious to the freezing cold weather or anything else around them, doormen on the local Spar because it was close to a nightclub to stop drunks coming in and lads hanging around looking for trouble.

We have a long way to go before we have a mature and sensible drinking culture in this country.

GreenFolder2

The Icelanders have no cop on about drinking either - Reykjavik is full of people falling out of bars like Ireland has and the Finns have a huge problem with alcoholism, where it's gotten out of hand. It's a little more like a Russian style hard drinking culture but it's tempered by high prices and lots of control of supply.

Greentopia

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

That's real lunatic taking over the asylum sh1te.

Makes for a nice headline for the alt-right and feminist haters to pounce on but unfortunately for them it's not true. http://www.thelocal.se/20161112/stockholm-transport-heads-defends-gender-equal-snow-clearing

“Gender equal snow-cleaning is not to blame here,” Daniel Helldén, the city’s Green Party transport head told the Expressen newspaper, stressing that the policy, which prioritises cleaning pavements and cycle lanes over roads, did not even appear to have even been followed.

And there is a reason behind it:

Stockholm’s municipal government, a coalition of the Social Democrats and the Green Party, brought in gender equal snow cleaning last year, pledging to make moving around the city on icy winter days just as safe for women as it is for men.

Don't see what's wrong with measures to do that. Some people are just looking for things to find fault with more progressive countries than the ones they live in.

the evasion_kid

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

The Icelanders have no cop on about drinking either - Reykjavik is full of people falling out of bars like Ireland has and the Finns have a huge problem with alcoholism, where it's gotten out of hand. It's a little more like a Russian style hard drinking culture but it's tempered by high prices and lots of control of supply.

The Finnish government used money from alcohol taxes to research and develop a groundbreaking treatment for alcoholism...the Sinclair method

pajor

Greentopia wrote: »

Just out of curiosity and you don't mind me asking-why did you not move somewhere closer to work?

I don't as I live my with Dutch OH and we live near the town she grew up in, where her family still live. We used to live in a house which was 5 mins away from her work by bike. Our landlords gave us the boot though, as they sold their own house and wanted to live in the house we were in. So we had to move a bit further away. We can't/couldn't afford renting in that town. So now she's 10 mins in the car from her work and I'm 35 from mine.

I don't mind that distance at all though. In my office, except for the people who live in that town, I probably have one of the shortest commutes.

ChikiChiki

NIMAN wrote: »

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

I'll start.

1) I know that they have higher taxes than most, which of course wouldn't go down too well in most places.

2) Denmark is among one of the highest users of anti-depressants per capita

On point 2, is that possible why they have been ranked as the happiest country in the world? Everyone is out of their bracket on happy pills. Just a thought.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/denmark-worlds-happiest-country-2016-3

Greentopia

pajor wrote: »

I don't as I live my with Dutch OH and we live near the town she grew up in, where her family still live. We used to live in a house which was 5 mins away from her work by bike. Our landlords gave us the boot though, as they sold their own house and wanted to live in the house we were in. So we had to move a bit further away. We can't/couldn't afford renting in that town. So now she's 10 mins in the car from her work and I'm 35 from mine.

I don't mind that distance at all though. In my office, except for the people who live in that town, I probably have one of the shortest commutes.

I see, thank's for the reply.

milehip

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante.

This ,especially number 11,gives me the creeps.

Greentopia

NIMAN wrote: »

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

Realised now I never replied to this...

Yes they do move to other countries of course for various reasons as people in all countries do. Swedes love London for example and many young Swedes will move there for a new life experience or for career opportunities, especially in areas like design, fashion, and IT. All areas they excel in as a country.

Many if not most will end up coming back to Sweden though after a few years in a rat race like London. Especially when they want to start families. Back to the safety and security, gentler pace of life, better public services, and higher quality of living in many regards that Sweden affords.

They don't tend to take a "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden' approach simply because they usually believe Sweden does things better than any other country!

I lost count of the number of times I used to read "vi är bäst i världen, i... -'we are the best in the world in'... fili in the blank, that I would see in a Swedish newspapers. But it was just stating factually areas they were actually the best, it was based on fact not hyperbole or empty fanatical patriotism.

They are individually very patriotic, but in a quiet way. They don't shout about it like the Americans do, but there is the feeling that is bred into them from a young age that they do things best and the Swedish model is the best, and if only every country was like Sweden the world would be much better.

Ok they know for example Finland has a better ranked education system and the problems in the Swedish one are a cause of much concern and debate, but Swedes in my experience have a much higher level of trust in their politicians to address any problems than we have for example. Yes you will hear criticism there too but it tends to be less vociferously voiced. They are antithetical to confrontation, very consensus driven and they like to approach problems in a very pragmatic way without formality or fanfare.

I liked the way they usually got the important stuff done and how society is not just set up to favour the better off. It's a more equal country than pretty much any other I can think of, and in my experience there that makes for a happier society and greater general levels of satisfaction with how people feel about their lives.

Wheeliebin30

It's amazing. For all the praise Sweden gets while Ireland constantly gets bashed here Sweden have 34,000 homeless people.

Yes 34,000 compared to 5,000 in Ireland.

People really think Ireland is the only country who faces these problems and it's all the government's fault.

There are approximately 34.000 people in Sweden without a home and municipalities struggle to keep people off the street. LU Open together with School of Social, Serendipity innovation and Forward Tech are now starting a pre-study to address this challenge.

The Social Innovation platform at LU Open was granted funding from Vinnova for a pre-study on how to eradicate homeslessness in Sweden.

There are approximately 34.000 people in Sweden without a home. For years Swedish municipalities have struggled with getting people off the street by a so-called step-by-step practice where the homeless had to adhere to different demands before a home was made available. However research from School of Social Work has proven that by changing the practice and giving the homeless a house first has a much higher success rate. Thus pilot studies run in Helsingborg and Stockholm shows that through this model 80% of the homeless stay in their home.

Wheeliebin30

Greentopia wrote: »

Realised now I never replied to this...

Yes they do move to other countries of course for various reasons as people in all countries do. Swedes love London for example and many young Swedes will move there for a new life experience or for career opportunities, especially in areas like design, fashion, and IT. All areas they excel in as a country.

Many if not most will end up coming back to Sweden though after a few years in a rat race like London. Especially when they want to start families. Back to the safety and security, gentler pace of life, better public services, and higher quality of living in many regards that Sweden affords.

They don't tend to take a "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden' approach simply because they usually believe Sweden does things better than any other country!

I lost count of the number of times I used to read "vi är bäst i världen, i... -'we are the best in the world in'... fili in the blank, that I would see in a Swedish newspapers. But it was just stating factually areas they were actually the best, it was based on fact not hyperbole or empty fanatical patriotism.

They are individually very patriotic, but in a quiet way. They don't shout about it like the Americans do, but there is the feeling that is bred into them from a young age that they do things best and the Swedish model is the best, and if only every country was like Sweden the world would be much better.

Ok they know for example Finland has a better ranked education system and the problems in the Swedish one are a cause of much concern and debate, but Swedes in my experience have a much higher level of trust in their politicians to address any problems than we have for example. Yes you will hear criticism there too but it tends to be less vociferously voiced. They are antithetical to confrontation, very consensus driven and they like to approach problems in a very pragmatic way without formality or fanfare.

I liked the way they usually got the important stuff done and how society is not just set up to favour the better off. It's a more equal country than pretty much any other I can think of, and in my experience there that makes for a happier society and greater general levels of satisfaction with how people feel about their lives.

With 34,000 homeless people you think it's a more equal society?

Greentopia

milehip wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante.

This ,especially number 11,gives me the creeps.

It's just their version of the 'Tall poppy Syndrome', something not unique to Scandinavia.

There is a dislike of anyone standing out and wanting to be seen as better than anyone else there though, that I could see. You should be modest and not blow your own trumpet in public or brag, or think you are any better than anyone else, -anyone doing so publicly will likely be mocked or ridiculed, but they don't follow Jante's Law that rigorously really.
It's more a cultural standard they regard as a way to ensure better equality, and equality is one of the most important cornerstones of Swedish society.

I never worried too much about it and all countries snoop on their citizens in some ways-re number 11, again Sweden or the other Scandinavian countries are not unique there.

drdeadlift

I moved to Norway.Its not all that great,people are a little more square weather is ****e and its dark alot.To top it all off i moved to an area where it has been worst effected by the turn down in the oil biz Stavanger.

Dr Jakub

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

Or the mansplaining hotline!

h2005

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

First result is from Breitbart? You're OK thanks

Dr Crayfish

I was in Copenhagen earlier in the year and found it pretty dull and drab. It's not even a pretty city by any measure, even Dublin is probably nicer looking in the city centre. Anyway the people seemed pleasant and it was clean and great cycle lanes but it was so dead walking around. Hardly any nightlife that we could find, I would much rather live in Dublin tbh.
Helskini was kind of similar, but much nicer looking aesthetically to CPH, to me anyway.

Also why are certain media outlets obsessed with "Hygge" at the moment? I'm looking at you, Guardian.

Dr Jakub

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The government taking such good care of you stifles the formation of both strong and weak interpersonal relationships.

Walking through a densely populated suburb on a sunny Saturday and it's like a ghost town. Everyone in a supermarket staring fixedly at a point 2m in front of them on the floor for terror of eye contact. A table of friends in a bar late on a Saturday night basically staring at each other, occasionally one takes a sip and says a sentence but mostly sitting in silence. The nurses in the hospital assuring my husbands family that they didn't need to visit my father in law daily as they were taking good care of him.

Joylessness and a sense of isolation.

A good friend lived in Sweden for years and this tallies with what he said. Said it's great for the first year and then you start to learn the Swedish mentality. He said the eye contact thing is hangover from the days when the Lutheran Church ruled the country. The 'Christian Taliban' as he calls them.

Dr Jakub

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I was in Copenhagen earlier in the year and found it pretty dull and drab. It's not even a pretty city by any measure, even Dublin is probably nicer looking in the city centre. Anyway the people seemed pleasant and it was clean and great cycle lanes but it was so dead walking around. Hardly any nightlife that we could find, I would much rather live in Dublin tbh.
Helskini was kind of similar, but much nicer looking aesthetically to CPH, to me anyway.

Also why are certain media outlets obsessed with "Hygge" at the moment? I'm looking at you, Guardian.

This. I'd rather live in a run down ****ty place like Ireland that has a heart and soul to it than somewhere like PC, gender neutral Swedanistan.

h2005

Greentopia wrote: »

Good, pity more people don't think like you, the alcoholism rate and resultant violence, family, health and other problems would be far lower.

I was responding to unfair and ridiculous assertions about Sweden and sorry if you don't like my criticism of this country. I'm born and raised in Ireland so naturally I compare the two countries I've lived in. There are some things I like about this country or else I wouldn't be here.

Seems like people who have a grudge against the Scandi countries either do so out of ignorance having never lived there or been misinformed about them, or they are doing so from ideological opposition to the Scandinavian social model.

The alcoholism rate is higher in Sweden no?

Fluffy Cat 88

Questions from someone who's never visited there: -

Does the darkness over the winter months really affect those living there (particularly northern Scandinavians)? I suffer from SAD myself and always imagined it must be horrible there in winter.

Is Finland a heavy metal mecca? If that rumour is true I gotta go there some day!

Greentopia

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's amazing. For all the praise Sweden gets while Ireland constantly gets bashed here Sweden have 34,000 homeless people.

Yes 34,000 compared to 5,000 in Ireland.

Figures from 2011 from what I've read. The economy has much improved in recent years there so hopefully those figures have decreased. Apparently "only" 4,500 were classed as being in an “acute” situation, meaning they lived on the streets or in shelters, and they changed how they measure homelessness so it's harder to say exactly the correct figure now.

Stockholm categorises homelessness on a spectrum that extends to those living in government-assisted apartments also it should be noted, and Sweden has a unique “roof over your head” guarantee ensuring that no Swedish resident has to sleep outside-something we could learn from here. Also if the temperature go below -7 in winter the Lutheran churches open their doors and allow the homeless to sleep inside. When will the Catholic church do that here I wonder?! yeah right... :rolleyes:

The homeless population there has many non-EU nationals who fall outside the Swedish welfare net and the authorities have found themselves struggling to help so many new people coming to the country.

Swedish nationals who are homeless are generally in the drug addict/alcoholic/mental illness category and there are programmes run to get them into long term accommodation. Something that's not easy to find given the pressure on housing stock there with the city attracting lots of young people from other regions.

Also Sweden has a population of over 9 million as opposed to 4.5 here, do remember.

I never saw many homeless people in Gothenburg on the streets, certainly nothing like you see in Dublin, but that's only my anecdotal experience I know. Stockholm does have a homeless problem now yes, something that was completely unheard of until the late 1990's. Much of this can be put down to the problem of many being unable to find places to rent there (not enough apartments being built in the biggest cities) and the huge influx of migrants as I said. The waiting time to get a 'first hand' contract in an apartment can be as long as 20 years in Stockholm so lots of people are forced to sublet unless they have the money to buy.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

People really think Ireland is the only country who faces these problems and it's all the government's fault.

I don't think people are that naive or uninformed. Of course other countries have homeless problems too, but you have to see how they approach the problem and work to tackle it. Sweden is actually trying to address it from what I read, which is more than can be said for here.

I don't think the crisis here is all the Govt. fault but the way they have dealt with it has been wholly inadequate and almost willfully neglectful. FG seem not to really care that whole families are living on the streets here now. Probably because they are unlikely to vote...