The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

alastair wrote: »

And please! - who exactly is stopping 'European Americans' advocating for anything? As I say - complete nonsense.

Try it, try setting up a European american group at any university, try even holding a meeting for a European american group in a hotel and see if it goes ahead. You understand that well i'd imagine. I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

midnight city wrote: »

Try it, try setting up a European american group at any university, try even holding a meeting for a European american group in a hotel and see if it goes ahead. You understand that well i'd imagine. I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

I'm sure you're going to support this claim with some evidence? Complete nonsense.

midnight city wrote: »

Try it, try setting up a European american group at any university,

What is a "European American Group" at a University? Is this? http://www.harvardpolishsociety.org/

midnight city wrote: »

try even holding a meeting for a European american group in a hotel and see if it goes ahead.

Wait. When you say 'European American Group' do you mean anti-immigration group? (I am assuming you are referring to the incident in Dublin recently)

midnight city wrote: »

You understand that well i'd imagine. I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

It is important to establish what we're talking about here so that nobody can pretend to not understand.

alastair wrote: »

I'm sure you're going to support this claim with some evidence? Complete nonsense.

Alastair why are you denying reality. I'm not sure if you really believe that Europeans could freely advocate for their interests and not come up against a massive backlash. Or if you are just taking up a debating position.

20Cent

midnight city wrote: »

Try it, try setting up a European american group at any university, try even holding a meeting for a European american group in a hotel and see if it goes ahead. You understand that well i'd imagine. I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

Like the conference held in the Ronald Reagan building in Washington DC? Video of it in this thread.

midnight city wrote: »

Try it, try setting up a European american group at any university, try even holding a meeting for a European american group in a hotel and see if it goes ahead. You understand that well i'd imagine. I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

But no one has tried to do it. The problem the alt right face is their affiliation with far right, white supremacist groups. The alt right are not the reasonable balance to the far right, they do not outright reject the far right or white supremacists as far as I can see.

They seem to argue that the white supremacists deserve to be heard because anti racist groups are prominent in the media. Racism and anti racism are not of equal value, IMO.

I'm not saying the alt right are all bigots, some are and some aren't, but they don't denounce bigotry.

I would also argue that there is no such thing as a European-American culture. From my experience in the US, most white people seem to either identify as Anglo-Saxon or their country of descent, e.g Italian or Irish.

midnight city wrote: »

Alastair why are you denying reality. I'm not sure if you really believe that Europeans could freely advocate for their interests and not come up against a massive backlash. Or if you are just taking up a debating position.

Why are you so reticent to support your claim with actual evidence? You said that 'European Americans' were the the only group not allowed to advocate for their interests. If this is the case, you should be able to support the claim with evidence. Otherwise it's complete nonsense. It is, of course, complete nonsense.

Deleted User wrote: »

What is a "European American Group" at a University? Is this? http://www.harvardpolishsociety.org/

You know well when the alt right refer to European american identity they are not talking about polish or an Irish group or any other individual nation. If you are not going to discuss these issues with honesty then why bother.

Muhammed_1

Brian? wrote: »

...

They can't stand the progressive societies they live in that are becoming increasingly multicultural as somehow not being dominant anymore makes them oppressed. It's as if the inability to oppress others is a threat to their way of life.

Multiculturalism does not work and will not work.

Multiculturalism leads to ghettoisation and social unrest.

You may be willing to welcome all newcomers with strange customs into your home but I am not.

Your response to that is that I am wrong and that I shouldn't be listened to and that I should be ignored.

I don't like that response.

You should accept that there are many Irish people who don't share your views, and who don't want lots of foreigners in Ireland.

I have no problem with foreigners, as long as they live in their foreign lands.

Foreign countries can deport Irish people if they wish, it is their own country.

Our societies are not becoming more progressive. Instead, our societies are becoming more polarised and dangerous and it's all because of your head-in-the-sand type approach, and your willingness to act on your feelings rather than on your intellect.

Sweden, France, Germany and Britain are all facing major problems with their muslim minorites.

You refuse to learn from their mistakes and you insist that Ireland should be no better.

I refuse to allow foreign men enslave women in Ireland.

Why are you so keen on it?

midnight city wrote: »

This is not the case at all. They don't want to rule over anyone. They are interested in their own European identity. They don't believe multiculturalism will work. They don't think the races can live in harmony and would prefer to live separately. They see every other group is allowed to advocate for their own interests. The only group that isn't is European Americans.

Define their "own European identity" please.

They don't believe multiculturalism will work because they're afraid of it.

There is only one race, the human race. Calling different cultures "races" perpetuates the myth that there something inherently "other" about people who look different. Let's stick to cultures, the notion of race should be dead and gone in this day and age.

midnight city wrote: »

You know well when the alt right refer to European american identity they are not talking about polish or an Irish group or any other individual nation. If you are not going to discuss these issues with honesty then why bother.

I'm being entirely honest. I am taking issue with your phraseology.

I think the notion of a European - American culture is nonsense. That's as honest ad I can get.

midnight city wrote: »

You know well when the alt right refer to European american identity they are not talking about polish or an Irish group or any other individual nation. If you are not going to discuss these issues with honesty then why bother.

Yes I know what they mean. Couching the groupings as 'European American Groupings' is only a way to try to make it sound inoffensive and innocent.

Call it what it is. Don't be afraid of it, it's only an ideal, ideals are open to argument, arguments are won by logic, reason and facts.

Muhammed_1 wrote:

You may be willing to welcome all newcomers with strange customs into your home but I am not.

Your response to that is that I am wrong and that I shouldn't be listened to and that I should be ignored.

I don't like that response.

Oh well. I guess someone is just going to have to come to terms with that disappointment.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Multiculturalism does not work and will not work.

Multiculturalism leads to ghettoisation and social unrest.

You may be willing to welcome all newcomers with strange customs into your home but I am not.

Your response to that is that I am wrong and that I shouldn't be listened to and that I should be ignored.

I don't like that response.

You should accept that there are many Irish people who don't share your views, and who don't want lots of foreigners in Ireland.

I have no problem with foreigners, as long as they live in their foreign lands.

Foreign countries can deport Irish people if they wish, it is their own country.

Our societies are not becoming more progressive. Instead, our societies are becoming more polarised and dangerous and it's all because of your head-in-the-sand type approach, and your willingness to act on your feelings rather than on your intellect.

Sweden, France, Germany and Britain are all facing major problems with their muslim minorites.

You refuse to learn from their mistakes and you insist that Ireland should be no better.

I refuse to allow foreign men enslave women in Ireland.

Why are you so keen on it?

Multiculturalism does work and always has. I'm keen on it because it's inevitable and leads to a more dynamic and progressive society.

I believe in a world without borders. Borders are a construct of an imperialist age and have become out dated. What are you trying to save?, How does that sit with you?

midnight city wrote: »

You know well when the alt right refer to European american identity they are not talking about polish or an Irish group or any other individual nation. If you are not going to discuss these issues with honesty then why bother.

I think it's you who's being dishonest here. Support your claim with specifics, and let's see how that works for you.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I know what they mean. Couching the groupings as 'European American Groupings' is only a way to try to make it sound inoffensive and innocent..

If African Americans set up a group everyone knows it is a group for black Americans, likewise with Latinos. Nobody would protest against those groups setting up. European Americans meaning white groups have much much more difficulty being accepted. Why is that?

midnight city wrote: »

If African Americans set up a group everyone knows it is a group for black Americans, likewise with Latinos. Nobody would protest against those groups setting up. European Americans meaning white groups have much much more difficulty being accepted. Why is that?

Can you give us an example of such a group?

Brian? wrote: »

I believe in a world without borders. Borders are a construct of an imperialist age and have become out dated. What are you trying to save?, How does that sit with you?

You are in a very small minority then.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

You may be willing to welcome all newcomers with strange customs into your home but I am not.

Nobody is requiring that you invite them into your home.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Your response to that is that I am wrong and that I shouldn't be listened to and that I should be ignored.

I don't agree. I think we should be able to establish the underlying reasons why you believe something. I don't require you to change your mind though, but I would attempt to bring you around to the idea.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

You should accept that there are many Irish people who don't share your views, and who don't want lots of foreigners in Ireland.

I certainly do. I think assuming that we have a homogeneous people in Ireland with a shared mentality about a wide range of issues is ridiculously far-fetched. There is no doubt that we have a wide berth of views and beliefs in the country. Across an enormous spectrum of issues.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I have no problem with foreigners, as long as they live in their foreign lands.

What about 'foreigners' who come to Ireland, fully integrate and 'become Irish'? Do you not believe in these people?

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Our societies are not becoming more progressive. Instead, our societies are becoming more polarised and dangerous and it's all because of your head-in-the-sand type approach, and your willingness to act on your feelings rather than on your intellect.

I agree wholeheartedly that there is a polarization in Western Societies. I believe the inability and frank refusal to discuss issues that people have been 'shamed' out of discussing is a factor in this polarization, but I don't accept that the 'solutions' offered are adequate, or in fact even effective.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I refuse to allow foreign men enslave women in Ireland.

Neither does our extensive legal system nor the rule of law.

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Why are you so keen on it?

Serious projection!

midnight city wrote: »

You are in a very small minority then.

I am indeed, but it's a growing minority.

Does being in a minority mean I'm wrong somehow?

midnight city wrote: »

If African Americans set up a group everyone knows it is a group for black Americans, likewise with Latinos. Nobody would protest against those groups setting up. European Americans meaning white groups have much much more difficulty being accepted. Why is that?

I've just given you an example of a European American group and you refused to accept it as such.

The 'Alt Right' groups are not, and should not be confused with 'European American' groups. As I said, call them what they are, it is not scary, it is what they are. We don't need to try to 'hide' or 'shame' them into pretending to be members of inoffensive sounding groupings.

A group of vehement anarchists masquerading as a 'European American Liberal Group' would be just as confusing. Why not just identify them by what they choose to meet as?

Brian? wrote: »

I am indeed, but it's a growing minority.

Does being in a minority mean I'm wrong somehow?

It just means most people don't agree with you.

midnight city wrote: »

If African Americans set up a group everyone knows it is a group for black Americans, likewise with Latinos. Nobody would protest against those groups setting up. European Americans meaning white groups have much much more difficulty being accepted. Why is that?

Which of these white nationalist groups (for indeed, that's what you're actually referring to) are you talking about, and why might you imagine they have encountered some criticism for their platforms?

American Renaissance, is a "race realist and white advocacy website", formerly a monthly magazine, published by the New Century Foundation.[50]

American Freedom Party, formerly known as the American Third Position Party, is an American political party which promotes white supremacy.[51][52][53][54] It was founded in 2010, and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.[55]

American Nazi Party, is an antisemitic, neo-Nazi organization based largely upon the ideals and policies of Adolf Hitler's NSDAP in Germany during the Third Reich but claims that it is in conformance with the Constitutional principles of the U.S.'s Founding Fathers. It also supports Holocaust denial.

Aryan Brotherhood of Texas is, according to the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the largest and most violent white supremacist prison gangs in the United States, responsible for murders and other violent crimes.[56][57]

Aryan Nations, is a white supremacist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group known as the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has called Aryan Nations a "terrorist threat",[58] and the RAND Corporation has called it the "first truly nationwide terrorist network" in the US.[59]

Council of Conservative Citizens, is an American political organization that supports a large variety of conservative and paleoconservative causes in addition to white separatism.[60]

Creativity Alliance, (formerly known as the World Church of the Creator) is a white supremacist politico organization that advocates the racialist religion, Creativity. Mainly religious rather than political, the radical Creativity Alliance or Church of Creativity, founded by Ben Klassen in 1973, worships the white race itself rather than any deity, and advocates a radical form of white supremacism known as RAHOWA.

EURO, is a white separatist organization in the United States. Led by former Louisiana state representative and presidential primary candidate David Duke, it was founded in 2000.[61][62]

Hammerskins, also known as Hammerskin Nation, are a white supremacist group formed in 1988 in Dallas, Texas. Their primary focus is the production and promotion of white power rock music, and many white power bands have been affiliated with the group.

Ku Klux Klan, often abbreviated KKK and informally known as The Klan, is the name of three distinct past and present right-wing[63] organizations in the United States, which have advocated extremist reactionary currents such as white supremacy and nationalism. The Klan is classified as a hate group by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[64] It is estimated to have between 5,000 and 8,000 members, split among dozens of different organizations that use the Klan name as of 2012.[65]

National Alliance, is a white supremacist political organization. It was founded by William Luther Pierce, and is based in the Pierce family's compound in Hillsboro, West Virginia.

National Association for the Advancement of White People, is a white supremacist organization in the United States incorporated on December 14, 1953 in Delaware by Bryant Bowles which presents itself as a civil rights organization such as the NAACP.

National Policy Institute, is a think tank based in Augusta, Georgia in the United States. It describes itself as the right's answer to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

National Socialist Movement (United States), a party founded in 1974. Since 2005 the party has become very active, staging many marches and demonstrations.

National Vanguard, was an American National Socialist organization based in Charlottesville, Virginia, founded by Kevin Alfred Strom and former members of the National Alliance.

Nationalist Movement, is a Mississippi-based, white supremacist organization that advocates what it calls a "pro-majority" position. It has been called white supremacist by the Associated Press and Anti-Defamation League, among others.[66][67]

Occidental Quarterly, is a printed far-right quarterly journal with a web segment, TOQ Online, including interviews, essays and reviews on the website.[68]

The Order, or Brüder Schweigen ("Silent Brotherhood") was a white supremacist Revolutionary organization founded by Robert Jay Mathews, active 1983-1984, probably best known for the 1984 murder of talk show host Alan Berg. Berg's killing was to be the first in a planned series of assassinations, followed by attacks on the United States government, all meant to bring about a race war which would result in fulfillment of White Separatist ideals (see Northwest Territorial Imperative).

Pacifica Forum, is a controversial discussion group in Eugene, Oregon, United States. It has been listed as a white nationalist[69] hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

Phineas Priesthood, is a Christian Identity movement that opposes interracial intercourse, the mixing of races, homosexuality, and abortion. It is also marked by its anti-Semitism, anti-multiculturalism, and opposition to taxation.

Volksfront, describes itself as an international fraternal organization for persons of European descent.[70] It has been called "neo-Nazi" and a "racist-skinhead group" in press reports.[71][72][73] The Anti-Defamation League has called the group "one of the most active skinhead groups in the United States."[74] The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has added Volksfront to its list of hate groups.[75]

White Aryan Resistance, is a neo-Nazi white supremacist organization founded and led by former Ku Klux Klan leader Tom Metzger.

Quite the busy area, for supposedly having no outlet for advocacy.

http://www.blacknews.com/directory/black_african_american_organizations.shtml

Brian? wrote: »

Can you give us an example of such a group?

Chips Lovell

I don't think anyone has said they were keen on enslavement, in fairness.

alastair wrote: »

Which of these white nationalist groups (for indeed, that's what you're actually referring to) are you talking about, and why might you imagine they have encountered some criticism for their platforms?

Quite the busy area, for supposedly having no outlet for advocacy.

Just because there has been racist groups set up doesn't mean every future group advocating for white Americans is a hateful group.

midnight city wrote: »

It just means most people don't agree with you.

It'd be a fierce boring world if we all agreed on everything. I'm advocating multiculturalism, I'm happy for people to have differing opions. Why is this a negative?

midnight city wrote: »

http://www.blacknews.com/directory/black_african_american_organizations.shtml

Can you give me some examples of moderate European American advocacy groups that have been oppressed? Support your own contention