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Mike Pence Not Welcome in Sligo

JupiterKid

Sligo County Council have reversed their initial plan to invite the US Vice-President Elect, Mike Pence, to the county as his great grandfather is from Tubercurry. Apparently some LGBT residents of Sligo were unhappy that the homophobic Indiana Governor, who opposes gay rights and has stated his support of electro-shock "conversion therapy" for gay men had been invited to visit Sligo.

Do you think the decision to not now invite Pence was right? Does it show Sligo's solidarity with its LGBT residents or were they just bowing to pressure? We welcomed Obama with open arms to Ireland a few years back, but then Obama is a socially progressive President.

Or should Pence be invited despite his homophobic views? Should we extend a welcome to public figures we personally disagree with?

Thoughts?

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GreenFolder2

There's nothing "feel good" or "right on" about it. You don't throw your neighbours under a bus by inviting someome who hates them and has gone out of his way to damage people like them throughout his career as a legislator.

Ireland's not a homophobic country and has gone through a fairly profound rediscovery of its gay side and of actually accepting that being gay is fully part of Irish identity.

You either stand in solidarity with a significant part of the Irish population by not inviting him or if you do, realise that it is a massive slap in the face to a significant part or the population that has only just started to feel like it's accepted in recent years.

I think standing with our own community on this is a hell or a lot more important than indulging a divisive, right-wing political figure who is very unlikely to have Irish interests at heart anyway.

You're talking about a group that likely doesn't give a damn about anything Irish other than using us as an endorsement for his political career amongst blue collar Americans with vague notions of Irish links.

Also, if you want to look at this from a cold, hard marketing point of view : we are appealing to silicon valley, big pharma, new York based financial hubs and some of the most liberal parts of the united states, not to the backwaters that support gay conversion therapy!

I would run a mile from being anywhere near someone like this - you don't want to even be associated with this kind of thing - it is terrible for Ireland's reputation.

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Irish Times runs a special waterproof coversheet for a week before and after full of crywanky opinion pieces.

A quick sconce this morning reveals that many at IT Towers are still running around triggering like an M61A1 cannon. :pac:

padd b1975

Allinall wrote: »

Na.

Getting offended outweighs pragmatism.

How many gays have actually voiced their offence or are they too busy getting on with life to care?

Reads like the "offended on someone else's behalf" have taken control of this one unfortunately.

fizzypish

Deleted User wrote: »

There are very important considerations coming up in relation to Irish migrants, the undocumented etc.

You'd think they could have used the chance of a USA Vice President elect returning to the place his ancestors left to remind him of that issue.

Sligo, hot bed of activity. Never thought I'd say that.
This put a point into my mind. X amount of illegal Irish emigrants in the states that may be helped Vs Y amount of Irish LGBT that will be gravely insulted by an extension of the Irish government inviting this dude over.
If X > Y or X < Y, shouldn't the government look to help the majority before the minority? I don't think its possible to help everyone out in most circumstances and if you try no one gets helped. Anyway, just a rambling thought.

AnthonyCny

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I welcome that we decline him if wants to visit. Why should we accept some reactionary right wing nutjob. He is an embarrassment. He can come on his own accord, but nobody should make him feel welcome.

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

GreenFolder2

AnthonyCny wrote: »

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

Probably should be a lot more questioning of him but, he's a religious leader and they almost always get handed exemptions on absolutely everything due to deference.

Extending that deference to political leaders is how you end up in situations like a certain Irish political decades ago sending telegrams to Germany with condolences on the death of Hitler.

You sometimes have to stand up for your values and not blindly respect the office holder just because of his/her title.

osarusan

I'd say Pence is reeling with shock.

Special Circumstances

AnthonyCny wrote: »

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

I'd say Tim Cooke would be out too because of conditions in the Chinese subcons and the whole special tax deal malarkey?

Would the "Sligo against Trumpence" crew welcome a Jewish group as part of the protest, or would they be battered with palestinian flags?

This just keeps on giving.

GreenFolder2

I doubt it so somehow but I would still think it's better we don't volunteer to endorse him because someone is just trying to suck up to power.

I think in general we are better off leaving this administration to the Americans to deal with.

Last thing thing we need is Ireland being suddenly associated with the US alt-right because someone felt the need to indulge a right wing populist in the hopes he might have a few auld jobs.

Bear in mind these are anti-immigration, protectionists who are very, very unlikely to be on the same page as the companies we are seeing to attract investment from anyway.

It's not Pence who makes FDI decisions, it's boards of companies like Apple etc etc who are exceedingly unlikely to share his political views on social issues.

OldGoat

Missed opportunity for the community to debate a high profile opponent. Stopping him speaking is not winning, it's putting your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalalalalalal" hoping the bogeyman will go away.
Winning would be debating him and disproving his opinions with facts.

Special Circumstances

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Bear in mind these are anti-immigration, protectionists who are very, very unlikely to be on the same page as the companies we are seeing to attract investment from anyway.

It's not Pence who makes FDI decisions, it's boards of companies like Apple etc etc who are exceedingly unlikely to share his political views on social issues.

But if we're going to get all righteous about it - do we even want the likes of Apple here? Or are chinese workers worth less than LGBTQ people in San Francisco? What would their relative worth be?

No point in being half assed about these things is there? Unless it is all just empty virtue signalling?

GreenFolder2

Difference is they're not policy makers, legislators or politicians.

Ireland has significant soft power when we endorse a US political figure. We are simply being used for an old rub of the shamrocks to boost his domestic ratings if we bring him over.

conorhal

Load of virtue signalling nonsense. Where were the perpetually outraged when we were lowering flags to half mast as a sign of respect for Saudi royals, you never see them when we're inviting Islamist extremists to this country to give speaches either, sure some people that advocate throwing gay people off rooftops are positively welcomed on to the stage by the kind of people you'd expect to be protesting them such as RBB.

Ultimately, who the hell in Sligo thought they were important enought to issuing invites to vice presidents? Have you not got a road to fix or something more important to be doing?

Riddle101

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

I'm sick of minorities demanding **** under a guise of fear or offence.

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

Anyone who would support electro-shock therapy for homosexuals, and be in favor of reducing funds for HIV treatment in favor of conversion therapy, is not a supporter of freedom of expression anyway. The guy will likely try to suppress LGBT so I can't say I'm surprised that people over here would feel that way about him.

The King of Moo

I wish Stephen Fry had never made that inane video about being offended.
I'm so sick of alt-right goons crowing about people being offended as though any instance of such were simply an individual's caprice, an arbitrary choice to decide not to like something, and therefore demand that it be hidden from view.

But why shouldn't we consider offence? Of course people like to provide extreme examples to demonstrate why taking offence is ludicrous: Oh, someone wants someone to lose their job because of a joke or a t-shirt they wore, it's ridiculous, no-one cares about your feelings!

But what about a case like this, where someone thinks that simply for the preferences you inherently have, you're less than human, and one of the most fundamental aspects of yourself should be forcibly done away with in order to make you match that person's vision of the world?
Do you really think we shouldn't consider how someone feels in that regard?
Of course we should, because that's how civilisation works. We don't just act completely on instinct: we consider how our actions might affect people around us, and act accordingly. We may even have imagination enough to consider how we would feel were we the object and not the subject of our actions.
That's why it's not ok to verbally abuse people without provocation: it can anger and upset, and people with a basic level of empathy consider those to be bad things, and try to avoid causing people such suffering if it can be avoided and is not considered necessary. That's how we all get along.
If someone came up to you in the street or at work and told you that you were less than human and needed to be converted into a "normal" human, no-one would expect you to simply shrug that off and not be offended.

In this case, an organisation representing an area has decided not to invite someone with views he's made public which are deeply offensive to a section of the community who've made their feelings known. They've decided not to give this person a platform to avoid unnecessary suffering to people they represent. Mike Pence's not being denied his freedom of speech: he's simply not being offered one of the myriad possible platforms he can be offered, because people have identified his hateful speech for what it is and don't want to hear it.

There's an argument to be made for allowing people to express regressive, hate-based opinions in an environment where they can be argued against, like university debates.
But no-one's required to respect or provide a platform for views they don't like. If you're on the wrong side of history and want hate speech to be provided public platforms, then you're out of luck because even despite what happened in America last week, the world is changing and you're being left behind. Just don't go complaining like a precious little snowflake because people don't agree with your views and aren't interested in hearing them.

The King of Moo

OldGoat wrote: »

Missed opportunity for the community to debate a high profile opponent. Stopping him speaking is not winning, it's putting your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalalalalalal" hoping the bogeyman will go away.
Winning would be debating him and disproving his opinions with facts.

But what debate would there be? He'd come, make a speech or two, have a sip of Guinness, balance a sliotar on a hurley and be on his way. He's not being invited to the Trinity Philisophical Society to debate Panti Bliss.
I get the idea that we should allow views to be aired and thus criticised, but in this case no-one would have the same platform he would. And this is a case of Sligo County Council choosing not to invite Mike Pence because of his regressive, hateful views. If we insist they invite him, where do we draw the line? Do we insist they invite Islamic fundamentalists, Russian Neo-Nazis?
There's value too in deciding someone's speech is so hateful and hurtful that you're not going to give them the time of day.

Special Circumstances

The King of Moo wrote: »

There's value too in deciding someone's speech is so hateful and hurtful that you're not going to give them the time of day.

Shades of the "Skibbereen Eagle" about it more than anything else.

"We give this solemn warning to Mr. Pence - the Sligo Snowflake has its eye on you!"

RobertKK

Riddle101 wrote: »

Anyone who would support electro-shock therapy for homosexuals, and be in favor of reducing funds for HIV treatment in favor of conversion therapy, is not a supporter of freedom of expression anyway. The guy will likely try to suppress LGBT so I can't say I'm surprised that people over here would feel that way about him.

He might be a fan of season 2 of

American Horror Story

, and never progressed beyond the electric shock therapy bit.

meeeeh

How many clapping the decision would have no problem with a bit a holiday and a shopping trip to that beacon of democracy Dubai?

I think Juncker summed it perfectly similar sentiment in regards to trade deal with Canada:
I am extremely surprised that when we conclude a trade agreement with Vietnam, a world famous country for respecting all democratic principles, nobody objects, but when we strike an agreement with Canada, a full-fledged dictatorship, everybody gets excited and blames us for not respecting human rights and fundamental economic rights...

It's the same type of nonsense. Politics is working with people you don't agree with and finding some sort solution not just congratulatory back slapping of those you a gree with.

The King of Moo

meeeeh wrote: »

How many clapping the decision would have no problem with a bit a holiday and a shopping trip to that beacon of democracy Dubai?

I think Juncker summed it perfectly similar sentiment in regards to trade deal with Canada:
I am extremely surprised that when we conclude a trade agreement with Vietnam, a world famous country for respecting all democratic principles, nobody objects, but when we strike an agreement with Canada, a full-fledged dictatorship, everybody gets excited and blames us for not respecting human rights and fundamental economic rights...

It's the same type of nonsense. Politics is working with people you don't agree with and finding some sort solution not just congratulatory back slapping of those you a gree with.

I'd never go to Dubai: awful place.

Atlantic Dawn

We give millions in aid every year to countries which lock up LGBT people, surely that's more of an out and out disgrace supporting these basket case regimes than inviting someone here that could be perhaps educated in their wrongs as part of a visit here.

meeeeh

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'd never go to Dubai: awful place.

It's not just Dubai, you can have a pick of countries that we have no problem spending our money in and supporting all sorts of crazy regimes and then we are making a stand on some flavour of the month issue.

Mint Sauce

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

I'm sick of minorities demanding **** under a guise of fear or offence.

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

Gateway Town to the NW of Ireland, probably has more significance than the VP Elect, to a President Elect who will be no more than a pen pusher, a pawn, and someone to blame when it all goes tits up.

Not sure what bringing him to Sligo was going to achieve anyway, would have probably cost an already bankrupt or close to it CoCo a fortune, remember we were inviting him, so was at our cost. Amongst other things many road and town infrastructure improvements have been delayed due to costs, or money the CoCo does not have. Its possible that the objection to his LGBT and pro choice/life views, whilst valid, may be a cover up, with the cost being the true reason.

Winterlong

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Its possible that the objection to his LGBT and pro choice/life views, whilst valid, may be a cover up, with the cost being the true reason.

I think you could be right here.
The whole Lisadell legal wrangle cost them a fortune. Services have been badly cut to the extent that the county library has been temporarily closed.
And I doubt that Mike Pence visiting Tuber would put it on the map ala Moneygall.

meeeeh

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Gateway Town to the NW of Ireland, probably has more significance than the VP Elect, to a President Elect who will be no more than a pen pusher, a pawn, and someone to blame when it all goes tits up.

Considering Calamity Trump is the president elect, Pence has a good chance of being more than a pen pusher. And no Sligo does not have more significance than VP, that's just silly talk now.

Second part of your post is probably making a valid point though.

topper75

Sligo Co. Co. are weak.

I can see them buckling and handing up the gays.

Ever notice that any gays marched into Pence's camps never come out again?

Their other alternative is hiding out in attics around Sligo town and mine is stuffed solid with old clothes, Beanos, Christmas decorations, and a swingball set, so...

The King of Moo

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

We give millions in aid every year to countries which lock up LGBT people, surely that's more of an out and out disgrace supporting these basket case regimes than inviting someone here that could be perhaps educated in their wrongs as part of a visit here.

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not just Dubai, you can have a pick of countries that we have no problem spending our money in and supporting all sorts of crazy regimes and then we are making a stand on some flavour of the month issue.

I don't think it needs to be as all or nothing as that though. Of course there's Realpolitik involved and we're going to trade with countries or individuals we don't agree with. But we can still disagree with them and try to effect some change.
This is particularly true in this case where you've got a specific case where you can say "We don't like this guy, let's not invite him."
And who's to say the people opposed to Pence's ludicrous beliefs aren't also interested in the greater complexities of global trade and ideology?

[Deleted User]

Clampdown wrote: »

I think considering him a 'powerful' visitor is a bit OTT. It would do very little for the town, which for it's size, has a pretty strong LGBTQ group who have worked hard to gain acceptance and have their own events in town. They might be in the minority but most people in town probably have at least one friend in that group, and IMO, they are more important than Mike Pence, who probably couldn't even point out Sligo on a map of Ireland.

What and who does the Q represent that the L,G,B or T doesn't? I thought it was just LGBT?

Dinarius

Looking at the wider picture, I think that we will look back on this in 3-4 years time and realize that Pence was the power behind the throne. He will be the puppet-master to Trump's puppet. He is a seasoned Washington insider.

Trump has never had a 9-5 job in his life. He has never been told by anyone what to do, and he is 70 years old. He is ripe for manipulation.

Trump (Pence), Putin, Farage, Le Pen etc...etc...

1933 all over again? It sure is looking that way. Pence's (bonkers) attitude to LGBT may turn out to be the least of our worries.

D.

Maximus Alexander

Special Circumstances wrote: »

"crywank against democracy"

Special Circumstances wrote: »

it is all just empty virtue signalling?

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Snowflake

All right guys, hands up who wrote the alt-right parody bot and fed it a 4chan dictionary?