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Eir rural FTTH thread

rob808

I made this thread for people on eir rural blue line FTTH please keep here and don't post in Eircom FTTH 66 towns 1 Gb thread about rural FTTH rollout.

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9726_9726

KOR101 wrote: »

32 users sharing 1Gb/sec doesn't make sense for a rural rollout. In the 'real' rural areas where people are getting by on 3/4mbit/sec speeds there will be huge takeup.

Edit: unless you're only talking about meeting 30mb target.

GPON allows 2.5Gbps downstream. You would have no problem getting 32 x 1Gbps residential subscribers out of that with no noticeable slowdowns.

Currently VDSL users use about 550Kbps average peak bandwidth.

2500Mbps ÷ 32 would allow 78Mbps sustained peak bandwidth per sub. In reality the 550Kbps that "up to" 100M users on VDSL use will probably translate into say 1Mbps max on 1Gbps FTTH.

I know of a FTTH operator, can't say where, who has a while town just breaking 1Gbps a 10Gbps backhaul on the evening peak. And these are made up of customers on various services up to 1Gbps.

legocrazy505

KOR101 wrote: »

The EU look likely to change the target to a 100mbit one by 2025. Hard to imagine they would want to return to their infrastructure for upgrades so soon after finishing.

Which is why we need 1gbps in the NBP. Get it out of the way for when 1gbps becomes the target for 2035 or something. Get ahead of the curve big league.

Mine dream situation for when we someday get 1gbps everywhere, is to give everyone in the house a max of 200mb at a time, that way nobody can whine about people "hogging" the bandwidth. :P

Johnboy1951

KOR101 wrote: »

The EU look likely to change the target to a 100mbit one by 2025. Hard to imagine they would want to return to their infrastructure for upgrades so soon after finishing.

I agree, so this x32 split seems very odd in the circumstances.

Maybe it was only mentioned when the 30Mb/s was being discussed, because as I understand it the x32 split was never officially stated.

KOR101

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So we are looking at a guaranteed 30Mb/s down on rural fibre roll out?

Presumably some will be able to avail of higher guaranteed speeds from a connection that is not split out so many times?

The EU look likely to change the target to a 100mbit one by 2025. Hard to imagine they would want to return to their infrastructure for upgrades so soon after finishing.

Gonzo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So we are looking at a guaranteed 30Mb/s down on rural fibre roll out?

Presumably some will be able to avail of higher guaranteed speeds from a connection that is not split out so many times?

Each customer should be able to handle 1000 megs. I dunno what the split would be in our area when it's wired up but for severe congestion to happen, every home would need to be maxing out 1000 megs at the same time?

I would imagine most customers looking for FTTH will go for the cheaper 150meg or 300 meg options. Not all of them would be downloading at same time.

I've yet to hear of FTTH congestion anywhere in Ireland.

Johnboy1951

KOR101 wrote: »

32 users sharing 1Gb/sec doesn't make sense for a rural rollout. In the 'real' rural areas where people are getting by on 3/4mbit/sec speeds there will be huge takeup.

Edit: unless you're only talking about meeting 30mb target.

So we are looking at a guaranteed 30Mb/s down on rural fibre roll out?

Presumably some will be able to avail of higher guaranteed speeds from a connection that is not split out so many times?

Gonzo

KOR101 wrote: »

32 users sharing 1Gb/sec doesn't make sense for a rural rollout. In the 'real' rural areas where people are getting by on 3/4mbit/sec speeds there will be huge takeup.

Edit: unless you're only talking about meeting 30mb target.

there are 21 homes on the section of blue line that I live on, it's a 600 meter cul de sac off the main blue line route.

At least 9 of those homes are looking to sign up to Eir's FTTH as soon as it becomes live. Every home already has ADSL but speeds ranging from 15 megs nearer Dunshaughlin to between 5 and 8 meg at my end. Most of these homes have families with teenagers/kids. Most of the homes also have computers/laptops/mobile phones, games consoles and probably all have Sky+ boxes. If most other blue lines are anything like our area uptake will be very good, I would guess close to 50%.

I would imagine FTTH takeup in an area already served very well by FTTC or Virgin Media would be a fraction of that for several more years.

KOR101

plodder wrote: »

I wonder is that a potential 1:32 split ratio (as in the technology allows it) or what they actually plan to do. It seems strange to be going back to a contended technology like the old ADSL, because 32 users sharing the same 1Gb medium could be noticeable in some cases.

32 users sharing 1Gb/sec doesn't make sense for a rural rollout. In the 'real' rural areas where people are getting by on 3/4mbit/sec speeds there will be huge takeup.

Edit: unless you're only talking about meeting 30mb target.

ItHurtsWhenIP

plodder wrote: »

I wonder is that a potential 1:32 split ratio (as in the technology allows it) or what they actually plan to do. It seems strange to be going back to a contended technology like the old ADSL, because 32 users sharing the same 1Gb medium could be noticeable in some cases. These splitters are extra equipment as well, bringing extra cost. So, would it not be cheaper in the short term, to give subscribers their own strand of fibre? Then as subscribers are added and speed capabilities increase, you could start splitting then...

The fibre they have run to VDSL cabs only have 24 strands, 4 of which are used to feed the cab, which leaves them with only 20 strands to share via that cab. So they do need to introduce some level of contention. As was mentioned earlier, depending on the number of houses served in a given area, the contention could be quite low, but more populated areas will see a higher figure.

If they are running new fibre, not feeding cabs, I suppose they could run 48 strand (my village exchange's core network connection is fed by a 48 strand fibre), but it would likely be more expensive than 24 strand.

plodder

digiman wrote: »

Some mis-information here in last few posts folks.

The last few posts are showing optical filters where light is filtered out into different waves/colours. This is primarily used in CWDM and DWDM and future PON technologies such as NGPON2 which is still in testing/trial phase by the vendors.

In GPON as Eir and SIRO are deploying they are using optical splitters which basically splits the optical signal in 5 stages.

They look something like this

And split the signal something like this

Every time you split the signal in 2 you lose 3dB loss, so if you split 1:32 you lose around 15-16dB as it splits 5 times in total.

When a GPON transmits from the central office every ONT on that PON will receive the exact same information but it is encrypted so only the ONT that is supposed to receive it does. When an ONT wants to transmit they must wait in a round robin sort of fashion to transmit and this is controlled by the OLT in the central office. So each ONT is given a timeslot to transmit and this is calculated by a mechanism called dynamic bandwidth allocation. It is an algorithm that fairly allows each ONT to transmit for a short period of time.

As EDE mentioned both SIRO and Eir are reportedly using 1:32 split ratios but with low takeup of FTTH and peoples usage habits its unlikely you would see any congestion if you had 32 homes on a 1Gb/s FTTH connection. In years to come of course this will change but at that stage we will be seeing higher bandwidth GPON technologies anyway.

I wonder is that a potential 1:32 split ratio (as in the technology allows it) or what they actually plan to do. It seems strange to be going back to a contended technology like the old ADSL, because 32 users sharing the same 1Gb medium could be noticeable in some cases. These splitters are extra equipment as well, bringing extra cost. So, would it not be cheaper in the short term, to give subscribers their own strand of fibre? Then as subscribers are added and speed capabilities increase, you could start splitting then...

frozenfrozen

added a disclaimer to my post, didn't mean to misinform, nothing quite like posting the wrong answer on the internet to get the right answer

digiman

Some mis-information here in last few posts folks.

The last few posts are showing optical filters where light is filtered out into different waves/colours. This is primarily used in CWDM and DWDM and future PON technologies such as NGPON2 which is still in testing/trial phase by the vendors.

In GPON as Eir and SIRO are deploying they are using optical splitters which basically splits the optical signal in 5 stages.

They look something like this

And split the signal something like this

Every time you split the signal in 2 you lose 3dB loss, so if you split 1:32 you lose around 15-16dB as it splits 5 times in total.

When a GPON transmits from the central office every ONT on that PON will receive the exact same information but it is encrypted so only the ONT that is supposed to receive it does. When an ONT wants to transmit they must wait in a round robin sort of fashion to transmit and this is controlled by the OLT in the central office. So each ONT is given a timeslot to transmit and this is calculated by a mechanism called dynamic bandwidth allocation. It is an algorithm that fairly allows each ONT to transmit for a short period of time.

As EDE mentioned both SIRO and Eir are reportedly using 1:32 split ratios but with low takeup of FTTH and peoples usage habits its unlikely you would see any congestion if you had 32 homes on a 1Gb/s FTTH connection. In years to come of course this will change but at that stage we will be seeing higher bandwidth GPON technologies anyway.

Gonzo

hopefully over the next year when FTTH is becoming more widespread, Eir might raise those uploads a bit.

It would be better if there was 4 different packages available instead of 3:

1 - 150/40
2 - 350/75
3 - 600/150
4 - 1000/250

I guess something like the above may happen in time.

ED E

Tommy Lagahan wrote: »

Well for whats its worth, and it might have already been posted somewhere, he said the packages were 1000mbit down 100mbit up and 600mbit down 60mbit up.

Eir or SIRO? Eir's RAPS are published, its 1000/100, 300/50, 150/30.

Tommy Lagahan

ED E wrote: »

The tech allows them go to 1:64 but we've seen informal statements that they're going to 32.

Lots of areas it could be less, a few 1Gb customers and the split would be down to 1:4.

Well for whats its worth, and it might have already been posted somewhere, he said the packages were 1000mbit down 100mbit up and 600mbit down 60mbit up. whoops ED E has the correct ones below!

ED E

The tech allows them go to 1:64 but we've seen informal statements that they're going to 32.

Lots of areas it could be less, a few 1Gb customers and the split would be down to 1:4.

frozenfrozen

passive dichroic splitters and re-combiners, a single fibre with coarse wavelength division multiplexing can have up to 18 channels, these boxes are bi directional so they're just sending in their case 16 strands of fibre, through this multiplexer and getting one fibre out, this is send to another box on the other end and that single fibre is split into all those separate frequencies again. so everyone's fibre box outside their house will only be receiving their own wavelength

presume the 32 number comes from two fibres at 16 channels per.

would be some serious mesh-net potential if everyone was receiving everyone elses wavelength

edit: this is wrong for ftth in ireland. accurate post below

[Deleted User]

Tommy Lagahan wrote: »

He also said that 32 houses could be done off of one fibre line through the passive splitters, they're not powered and that the modems sync up automatically when powered up to avoid crosstalk with the other lines on the splitter. Must be some sort of sync signal on the fibre.

Someone mentioned that the passive splitters used prisms to split the light into different frequencies, so I would imagine that the modem has a tuner that finds the frequency (wavelength) that is on that particular fibre and locks onto it.

A bit like a radio tuner finding a station. Also known as frequency division multiplexing.

EDIT: But not the method used for FTTH, (see below)

Tommy Lagahan

KeRbDoG wrote: »

That video is using manual joiners (with index gel) for fiber strands, no professional would use those - they would use fusion splicers.

Can confirm, uncle who works for Eir said that the fiber was fused together, I think he said that there was a maximum signal loss accepted of 0.06dB (was about 2 weeks ago now and my memorys buggered! He definitely said it was fused though).

He joked that it was going to be very hard for him to do because he could hardly see the fiber since its only so many microns thick :pac: Will be glad to help if he has bother up my road hahah

That also definitely looks like the device he described that they were using in the training.

He also said that 32 houses could be done off of one fiber line through the passive splitters, they're not powered and that the modems sync up automatically when powered up to avoid crosstalk with the other lines on the splitter. Must be some sort of sync signal on the fiber.

Gonzo

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

Like these?

http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/images/gallery/uploads/1453394029_1453391129_Conduit-Rod.jpg

Used to push through the duct then pull cable back in the opposite direction.

yep something very similar to that cable puller, yellow cable.

the third cable puller from the right in the photograph would be most similar in size to the ones I saw.

tsue921i8wljb3

Gonzo wrote: »

lads were back today, not sure if they made it back after lunch.

They had some sort of small trolley with yellow cable putting it into the manhole at the junction of my road.

Also they were painting codes onto the road beside each major manhole.

Like these?

Used to push through the duct then pull cable back in the opposite direction.

Gonzo

lads were back today, not sure if they made it back after lunch.

They had some sort of small trolley with yellow cable putting it into the manhole at the junction of my road.

Also they were painting codes onto the road beside each major manhole.

Gonzo

I thought the ducting was done in my area but this week has really proved me wrong. KNN spent all of last Monday connecting fibre from/below the cab to the first manhole of the blue line, a distance of about 90 meters, I wish I was more technically minded when it comes to networks to really understand what they were doing.

I presume the 'core fiber' runs between the exchange and the cab. Then the work on Monday made it possible to pass this fiber under the cab and to the very start of the blue line fiber.

1km further on (700 meters from my home), the blue line splits into 2 as the road splits into 2. Today KNN arrived in the afternoon and placed cones at this junction and a huge reel of black cable in the ditch/side of road ready to do whatever they need to do in order to split the blue line 2 directions.

Will report back tomorrow.

damienirel

oscarBravo wrote: »

I wouldn't count on it. The ONT is the demarcation point between the wholesaler's and the retailer's networks; having a third party's fibre upstream of the ONT is unlikely to fly.

Good call on the fibre in the house anyway. I wish more houses had any form of useful cabling in them.

There would be no point at the moment doing that anyways the upload caps are a lot lower than what it's actually capable of anyways. Plus I don't see them increasing that anytime soon for domestic connections. But having an internal fibre network rocks. It's only a matter of time before it's used in more and more devices I hope anyways. Other cabling is just so rubbish in comparison.

damienirel

KeRbDoG wrote: »

So hopefully if/when FTTH shows up my direction I can bring their fiber equipment into my comms cab

Sounds great. I love over-engineering things! My comms cab is right where the ducting for my phone line enters the house - so at least when fibre does arrive it arrives close to my gigabit switch and cat6a wiring and I'm not wasting any of that precious bandwidth with wireless bottlenecks. Come on Eir I've been waiting 5 years already!!

[Deleted User]

Passive splitters, that explains the lack of power to the poles that will have joiners for the end users..

ED E

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, now we're getting a bit technical, does anyone know how the fibres are connected back to the cabinet, is it one fibre per house or are there aggregation units inline?

There are pictures somewhere in thread but basically its this:

OLT in exchange (Big fibre modem)
(Urban) 24 strands to each cabinet, 4 go up to cab, 20 keep going with no break
(Rural) Strands as needed run out along poles
Passive splitters on poles and in cavities: 1 strand in, up to 32 out. One splitter may cover half a street in an urban area or a run for several km rurally.

The splitters act similar to a prism everyone seen. They can be buried anywhere theres room.

NB: As this is often confused, FTTH has zero interaction with the cab, it just passes under it.

[Deleted User]

OK, now we're getting a bit technical, does anyone know how the fibres are connected back to the cabinet, is it one fibre per house or are there aggregation units inline?

ED E

Totally agree, don't go moving the demark. It just creates headaches down the road. The odd time there are exceptions though that can warrant it so just interested if the option exists.

oscarBravo

ED E wrote: »

There's a question for you OB, on the consumer side they've an SC connector but for commercial joins they use a splicing table for less loss. Would you get away with a male to female connector for an internal run (without telling OpenEir/SIRO ofc) or would that fail horribly?

As long as the ONT syncs up properly, it should all be good. I don't think introducing new potential points of failure is a great idea, mind. And from what I've heard, SIRO will be quite flexible in terms of where they bring the fibre into the premises.