Off Topic Thread 3.0

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That he asked for a blank cheque. That's total fantasy. They were focused on repaying the money they had already borrowed. Specifically by restructuring that debt. The EU were trying to get them to accept a 3rd loan, which he refused to take out knowing they'd be unable to pay it. Far from demanding a blank cheque (in the end of course he failed, and of course the EU were right and Greece is totally fine now!)

This is the 'plan' the Greek people voted for by the way, if you would like to disagree and point to the blank cheque they requested

Yes.

But the debt-swap arrangement sounds to me to be awfully like a blank cheque. Basically, the ECB sell Greek bonds to the EFSF, so that they can then buy more bonds from Greece. Meanwhile, the EFSF/ESM loan money to Greece to buy the bonds that they just bought off the ECB and Greece then extinguishes them.

But this is all done on the original price of the bonds and not the surrender value of them.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Oh WWN, never change.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/11/09/trump-to-make-it-legal-to-marry-your-daughter-as-1st-act-in-office/

It's worth reading the comments.

So, apparently the Canadian immigration website crashed last night

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

So, apparently the Canadian immigration website crashed last night

Irish passports are so last season.

https://twitter.com/kelbi1lewis/status/796341784448208896

Felix Jones is God

The K.K.K is a spent force in America, totally impotent and irrelevant.
Has the same impact as scientologists on the ordinary Americans life

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

The K.K.K is a spent force in America, totally impotent and irrelevant.
Has the same impact as scientologists on the ordinary Americans life

I'd imagine they still have some impact on any black people who see them marching around like that, buoyed by the fact that Trump's campaign has legitimised their views again. And especially on older black people who would have lived through the civil right movement and would have hoped to have seen the last of them then.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yes.

But the debt-swap arrangement sounds to me to be awfully like a blank cheque. Basically, the ECB sell Greek bonds to the EFSF, so that they can then buy more bonds from Greece. Meanwhile, the EFSF/ESM loan money to Greece to buy the bonds that they just bought off the ECB and Greece then extinguishes them.

But this is all done on the original price of the bonds and not the surrender value of them.

But a liquidity operation (which is what this is) is not a blank cheque. It's a method of loosening the squeeze that was put on the Greek economy that saw their GDP cut by 33% and plunged them into poverty. And it would have been far cheaper for the eurozone in the long-term, as we've since discovered.

Also politically the Greek economy has pretty much been run by the equivalent of political mafia families for decades since their civil war. We finally got someone into the finance office there who actually cared about corruption and increasing their revenue base and he was pushed out, and almost immediately the program he had established to deal with corruption (where they describe corruption as the primary religion!) was scrapped.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But a liquidity operation (which is what this is) is not a blank cheque. It's a method of loosening the squeeze that was put on the Greek economy that saw their GDP cut by 33% and plunged them into poverty. And it would have been far cheaper for the eurozone in the long-term, as we've since discovered.

Also politically the Greek economy has pretty much been run by the equivalent of political mafia families for decades since their civil war. We finally got someone into the finance office there who actually cared about corruption and increasing their revenue base and he was pushed out, and almost immediately the program he had established to deal with corruption (where they describe corruption as the primary religion!) was scrapped.

Buying back your own bonds on borrowed money at the original price is maybe not a blank cheque, but it is a handout. Effectively though it was borrowing under a different name.

Corruption is a separate argument though and unfortunately for him and for Greece, he was too wedded to his plan and not pragmatic enough to realise that politics is about compromise.

Corruption was and is the biggest problem for Greece. As long as it continues there will be little or no progress.

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

The K.K.K is a spent force in America, totally impotent and irrelevant.
Has the same impact as scientologists on the ordinary Americans life

They seem to think that they've gained some legitimacy though. In much the same way that Brexit was seen in some quarters as a license for xenophobia, Trump's election will be seen the same way by those who want to.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

They seem to think that they've gained some legitimacy though. In much the same way that Brexit was seen in some quarters as a license for xenophobia, Trump's election will be seen the same way by those who want to.

It's really horrifying. I feel hopeless looking at images of the KKK and knowing it's not something out of a history book.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's really horrifying. I feel hopeless looking at images of the KKK and knowing it's not something out of a history book.

It's long past time that the US confronted this issue head on though. Their whole society is riddled with it. And it's been swept under the carpet and ignored.

Even joked about in a knowing but ultimately complicit way such as the joke name 'Token' for the black kid in South Park.

Scratch the surface as Trump has, and the pus comes pouring out.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Buying back your own bonds on borrowed money at the original price is maybe not a blank cheque, but it is a handout. Effectively though it was borrowing under a different name.

Corruption is a separate argument though and unfortunately for him and for Greece, he was too wedded to his plan and not pragmatic enough to realise that politics is about compromise.

Corruption was and is the biggest problem for Greece. As long as it continues there will be little or no progress.

That doesn't seem to be remotely true given how much they were willing to move. If anything that sounds like the criticism that should be leveled at the troika.

What was wrong with SYRIZa's actual proposal, would it not have restored growth and actually made Greece capable of repaying their debt? While avoiding plunging millions more people into poverty? Rather than effectively forcing the citizens of Greece to live through punishment for the sins of the European banking sector.

Unfortunately this is all politically unsustainable and let's just hope Golden Dawn don't gain more ground because they're just another product of this era of economic stupidity.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the political parties that need to learn (the harsh harsh truths) about demagogues, but the electorate.

Greece might actually be a good example of this (in a few more years).

I'd like to thank this post multiple times. Politics and politicians will only change if there is the demand there from the electorate to change. That hasn't been there until now. People are pissed off that Governments don't listen to them, but then turn up to vote in low numbers for the same people time after time.

Now we're starting to see demands for change. But change towards what? What message does electing Trump or backing Farage send to politicians?

For years electorates have been complicit through a lack of action. Now that they are taking action it's massively counterproductive and sends completely the wrong message.

A definite problem in Northern Ireland!

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That doesn't seem to be remotely true given how much they were willing to move. If anything that sounds like the criticism that should be leveled at the troika.

What was wrong with SYRIZa's actual proposal, would it not have restored growth and actually made Greece capable of repaying their debt? While avoiding plunging millions more people into poverty? Rather than effectively forcing the citizens of Greece to live through punishment for the sins of the European banking sector.

Unfortunately this is all politically unsustainable and let's just hope Golden Dawn don't gain more ground because they're just another product of this era of economic stupidity.

I'm not really sure based on that paper whether or not it would have succeeded. It's pretty waffly tbh.

For a start, it talks about semi-privitisation to generate funds. But surely the assets that were to be privatised were already carrying debt burdens? And similarly it doesn't seem to deal with individual and business debt. Bank debt is only one side of the equation, the other side is business and private debt that has to be restructured. That process alone would take years.

It might have worked, or at least some parts of it might. The bottom line is that he took a high handed attitude to talks with Brussels, threatened Grexit as a bargaining counter and refused to compromise.

Final numbers from the US. That is a staggering number of people who didn't vote. Not sure how many of them were down to the ridiculous voting rules across various places and how many of them were people who just didn't bother but still a shocking number. Essentially, whoever won, would only be representing a quarter of the population.

https://twitter.com/AaronH02056/status/796392497626882048

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Final numbers from the US. That is a staggering number of people who didn't vote. Not sure how many of them were down to the ridiculous voting rules across various places and how many of them were people who just didn't bother but still a shocking number. Essentially, whoever won, would only be representing a quarter of the population.

https://twitter.com/AaronH02056/status/796392497626882048

What I always think is ludicrous is the slow process that voting entails. Huge queues for voting booths and people queuing for hours. Pretty sure if that was the case here we'd have even lower turnouts.

I know there's early voting and postal voting, but people like to leave it to the end because of the possibility of something happening that could influence their voting intentions.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

What I always think is ludicrous is the slow process that voting entails. Huge queues for voting booths and people queuing for hours. Pretty sure if that was the case here we'd have even lower turnouts.

I know there's early voting and postal voting, but people like to leave it to the end because of the possibility of something happening that could influence their voting intentions.

Some of those queues are a result of deliberate voter suppression but the entire system is backwards and needs updating. But it's what keeps the people in power in pOwer.
I know they have different time zones across the country but they were announcing results from some while others were still voting. Makes no sense to me, surely that could influence voting?

Ridiculous that someone can get more votes yet still lose the election. I can't see any justification for that whatsoever

Synode wrote: »

Ridiculous that someone can get more votes yet still lose the election. I can't see any justification for that whatsoever

Essentially there are a handful of states that you have to win and most of the rest are almost pointless.

I don't get how they have accurate numbers from states 5 minutes after polls close either. Is it all electronic or what?

I read somewhere about Trump giving out about voting machines. Not sure if it was in one State only or all States

The Lost Sheep

Synode wrote: »

Ridiculous that someone can get more votes yet still lose the election. I can't see any justification for that whatsoever

I don't see why it is ridiculous about someone winning popular vote not winning as you must take it into account the variances between rural, urban areas etc. US is so big and this system makes it mathematically impossible for a candidate with large amounts of support in just one region to overwhelm the vote.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see why it is ridiculous about someone winning popular vote not winning as you must take it into account the variances between rural, urban areas etc. US is so big and this system makes it mathematically impossible for a candidate with large amounts of support in just one region to overwhelm the vote.

Who cares about Regions or Urban/Rural. If more people vote for Clinton then she should be President

The Lost Sheep

Synode wrote: »

Who cares about Regions or Urban/Rural. If more people vote for Clinton then she should be President

No it isn't that simple especially in a country the size of the states. This system allows all states have a say and stops candidates just focusing on the largest most populous states

Synode wrote: »

Who cares about Regions or Urban/Rural. If more people vote for Clinton then she should be President

It's a purposely weighted system. It's that way by design. California has less electoral college votes per million people than say Montana. Otherwise, states like New York, Texas, Florida and California could almost decide a general elction by themselves.

There have been many attempts to change the system, but they all have failed.

thomond2006

Synode wrote: »

Ridiculous that someone can get more votes yet still lose the election. I can't see any justification for that whatsoever

Each state is its own entity to an extent, I suppose the electoral college system reflects that? The fact that it's all or nothing in most states for allocating its electoral votes is bizarre however. It focuses the campaign on the 'swing states'.

Retailers must be absolutely petrified...

I hear all your arguments but in my opinion, if you get more votes than the other person then you should win. Anything else is a fudge

Synode wrote: »

I hear all your arguments but in my opinion, if you get more votes than the other person then you should win. Anything else is a fudge

Well that can happen in PR too.