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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

No one has blinked yet and there's a lot of staring left to be done

I think the mission of the dept. is to destroy the ASTI at all costs.
Meanwhile other union groups are starting to reconsider LR. Funny, considering they were happy to be inside LR until ASTI took a stand.

vin33

Other unions will wait to see how this plays while you guys stand out in the cold without pay.

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think the mission of the dept. is to destroy the ASTI at all costs.
Meanwhile other union groups are starting to reconsider LR. Funny, considering they were happy to be inside LR until ASTI took a stand.

I think the Govt will be reviewing this stance with ICTU meeting about LR, suddenly they have many fires to put out. It's hard to know where this will end.

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

Rang last week to confirm that I wouldn't not be paid from Monday. They said the deduction will disappear from my paycheck from 17th due to midterm. I asked them to return their copy of the 'contract for life' which I signed as it was now invalid, but they refused stating that it might be reactivated in the future. So maybe you should pass that answer into mr Bruton and mr o'donoghue.

Is it the 'opt out' deduction that will disappear? 17th Oct or Nov?
Thanks judeboy

Fleawuss

vin33 wrote: »

It's not about right and wrong which is what most of the posts here talk about, it never is. The government had to give in to the guards. The teachers they can use to bring the other unions to heel. Big mistake giving them an excuse not to pay you. They can last longer on this.

Politically speaking this is the grown up post here. The Guards have stolen a march but not blazed a trail. The govt will want to delay the death of LRA until well into the new year and the ASTI offer them a soft target for an easy victory and a PR embellishing "stand against public sector pay claims". The ASTI will give the govt the chance to beat up a union and they will take it. All the posts here about equality are irrelevant to the political reality.

Now if ASTI leadership had real political nous and called off the action for the benefit of students and parents, lambasted the govt for doing no real negotiating for 2 weeks and never having the intention of it, got the other unions in the PS together on killing LRA sooner rather than later then we might see the govt cut a real deal. But will the ideologicallly pure in the ASTI win out over the lads who know how to win a fight? He who can does, he who cannot....

man_no_plan

vin33 wrote: »

Other unions will wait to see how this plays while you guys stand out in the cold without pay.

I think this is an important point. Liam Doran can rant and rave and kerp his members happy.

There will be a negotiation of a successor agreement over the coming months that will sort all of this out. Its more sabre rattling than floodgates imo.

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

No one has blinked yet and there's a lot of staring left to be done

We need a consignment of eye drops

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

Is it the 'opt out' deduction that will disappear? 17th Oct or Nov?
Thanks judeboy

17th Nov unless a bit is reduced due to mon7th to wed9th

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

17th Nov unless a bit is reduced due to mon7th to wed9th

Surely we can't be docked pay if we're still paying the 'opt out'?!

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

Surely we can't be docked pay if we're still paying the 'opt out'?!

We are paying the opt out until Sunday then we don't have to pay opt out Monday but will be docked a days wages , same Tuesday. So technically you'll gain ~65 lose ~whatever a days work is for ur point on scale.

vin33

Smart move would be to concede on sub and supervision as a gesture of good will and play the long game. Imo you burned this card already. My understanding is that once practise becomes established then its part of t&c's, good or bad for the individual. Another thing to consider is no parent in their right mind is going to publicly critise the teachers while their child is dependant on those same teachers. So don't bank on public support.

paddybarry

vin33 wrote: »

Smart move would be to concede on sub and supervision as a gesture of good will and play the long game. Imo you burned this card already. My understanding is that once practise becomes established then its part of t&c's, good or bad for the individual. Another thing to consider is no parent in their right mind is going to publicly critise the teachers while their child is dependant on those same teachers. So don't bank on public support.

like all the extra curricular activities that teachers do but is never mentioned in the media?

judeboy101

vin33 wrote: »

Smart move would be to concede on sub and supervision as a gesture of good will and play the long game. Imo you burned this card already. My understanding is that once practise becomes established then its part of t&c's, good or bad for the individual. Another thing to consider is no parent in their right mind is going to publicly critise the teachers while their child is dependant on those same teachers. So don't bank on public support.

The smart move would have been to pull s&s but give them 8weeks notice. It would have made them put up or shut up. Id say we can last prob 2weeks from Monday before discipline breaks down (probably wishful thinking). Id hate to see a colleague do a billy Elliot's brother on it.

vin33

paddybarry wrote: »

like all the extra curricular activities that teachers do but is never mentioned in the media?

Whether it's true or not, those/we who work in the private sector look with envy on the hours that teachers work. For sure it's true that our pensions don't come anywhere near and most people don't have a clue about this. If they did you would have no sympathy.
That actually is the point, because you could win this purely on your lpt point because the public are quite ignorant. So play that card.

evolving_doors

vin33 wrote: »

Whether it's true or not, those/we who work in the private sector look with envy on the hours that teachers work. For sure it's true that our pensions don't come anywhere near and most people don't have a clue about this. If they did you would have no sympathy.
That actually is the point, because you could win this purely on your lpt point because the public are quite ignorant. So play that card.

I know some teachers would rather cut their fingers off than NOT do extra-curricular. Plus I think the union would see EC as outside teachers' duties so they wouldn't issue any directive on it.

vin33

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I know some teachers would rather cut their fingers off than NOT do extra-curricular.

OK, I get that. But the world has changed and not for the better.

worseforwear

Fleaswuss you're spot on,
call it off before the membership and the public is lost, let the govt take all the flak that's coming their way. LR is essentially dead now, play it smart now and let the other unions bur the corpse.

evolving_doors

vin33 wrote: »

OK, I get that. But the world has changed and not for the better.

True, but a lot of teachers see EC as a way of making the world better:)

This has been trashed out a lot and I'd be very surprised if EC is ever used as a bargaining tool. Similarly, writing off EC for CP hours just wouldn't work.. well maybe the fools might introduce it, but once you start quantifying it then it'll spoil it.

vin33

worseforwear wrote: »

Fleaswuss you're spot on,
call it off before the membership and the public is lost, let the govt take all the flak that's coming their way. LR is essentially dead now, play it smart now and let the other unions bur the corpse.

This post Imo is the way to go for the teachers. The last budget was a play to get votes in the very near future election. The problem is that people like me would rather see the guards teachers and nurses get paid before social welfare increases. But that is not politically correct.

amacca

man_no_plan wrote: »

No different to the hons degree allowance being addaed to the teachers scale.

I would think theres a difference - you have to have an honours degree to get the honours degree allowance etc

A garda doesn't have to be renting to get the rent allowance do they?

JellieBabie

Can someone clarify for me is the rent allowance for every guard? If so, how are lower paid guards' needs addressed?

Lord TSC

JellieBabie wrote: »

Can someone clarify for me is the rent allowance for every guard? If so, how are lower paid guards' needs addressed?

Afaik, newly qualified officers got none before. Now they get €4500. Olde rguards got a €500 bump up to €4500 as well.

TheDriver

amacca wrote: »

I would think theres a difference - you have to have an honours degree to get the honours degree allowance etc

A garda doesn't have to be renting to get the rent allowance do they?

Now that's an interesting fact.......surely that's a very odd idea and if teachers received this, it would be tabloid front page

man_no_plan

amacca wrote: »

I would think theres a difference - you have to have an honours degree to get the honours degree allowance etc

A garda doesn't have to be renting to get the rent allowance do they?

This is true but they were getting none at all nefore the TUI/INTO agreement. They have a claim in for the hdip allowance also which would cover that in some way. It was never possible to hold the degree and masters allowance simultaneously. I can't see how its more of a departure from the LRA than the pay increase for teachers where new entrants are concerned.

The LRA controls the unwinding of FEMPI. This effectively means pay restoration for those who had core pay cut and of course the pension lecy applied. I will take correction on this but as far as I know FEMPI wasnt used to cut new entrant salaries, this was done under the finance act along with changing pension arrangements. The equalisation of pay for new entrants is slightly seperate to the restoration element? Did the INMO not get something for new nurses last year too?

The rent allowance / degree allowance are of the same nature at the end of the day, all registered teachers or gardaí effectively get them.

I think that the loophole for guards is that they are assigned to a location by management. Many if their allowances seem to be historic as they couldn't access the labour court etc for a pay claim so an allowance for this that or the other were introduced.

The big issue is the 2k that all existing guards will get, 500 on top of the existing rent allowance plus the parade duty payment of about 1500. Will that be taken into consideration in future negotiations? Our s/s coming back was as a result of a cut but the HRA is clear that it will form part of future pay consideration.

hobbsd

You obviously have no experience of sitting on a board. The vast majority of boards of management have taken their cue from the JMB who are doing the dirty work of the DES in trying to break the union. This is a lockout, make no mistake and BoMs seem to have forgotten that they have a duty of care to their staff as well as their students. They have made what is a national issue, local and schools all around the country will suffer as a result. When this dispute is eventually resolved (nationally) BoMs and more importantly, Principals, will still be relying on teachers goodwill and if what I am hearing over & over again, teachers will never forget what their boards have done and I believe that boards have been ill advised in taking this unnecessary step. People need to be clear. The govt broke their side of the HR agreement by using FEMPI to refuse to pay teachers money due to them, after teachers fulfilled their part, in good faith, fully, in doing S&S for free for 3 years. So if parents are angry
(& they should be), then direct your anger at those truly responsible, the govt...

TheDriver

http://www.thejournal.ie/minister-schools-closing-3062509-Nov2016/

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/minister-schools-closing-3062509-Nov2016/

And so begins project FEAR

Inspector Coptoor

man_no_plan wrote: »

This is true but they were getting none at all nefore the TUI/INTO agreement. They have a claim in for the hdip allowance also which would cover that in some way. It was never possible to hold the degree and masters allowance simultaneously. I can't see how its more of a departure from the LRA than the pay increase for teachers where new entrants are concerned.

The LRA controls the unwinding of FEMPI. This effectively means pay restoration for those who had core pay cut and of course the pension lecy applied. I will take correction on this but as far as I know FEMPI wasnt used to cut new entrant salaries, this was done under the finance act along with changing pension arrangements. The equalisation of pay for new entrants is slightly seperate to the restoration element? Did the INMO not get something for new nurses last year too?

The rent allowance / degree allowance are of the same nature at the end of the day, all registered teachers or gardaí effectively get them.

I think that the loophole for guards is that they are assigned to a location by management. Many if their allowances seem to be historic as they couldn't access the labour court etc for a pay claim so an allowance for this that or the other were introduced.

The big issue is the 2k that all existing guards will get, 500 on top of the existing rent allowance plus the parade duty payment of about 1500. Will that be taken into consideration in future negotiations? Our s/s coming back was as a result of a cut but the HRA is clear that it will form part of future pay consideration.

And you have to add in the €15 per day for the 30 days annual leave so another €450.

A new Garda will now get
€4500 rent allowance
€1500 parade duty
€450 leave day money

Total: €6450 on top of a basic of €23,750, an effective increase of 27% of current basic pay before any OT is factored in.

deiseindublin

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Total: €6450 on top of a basic of €23,750, an effective increase of 27% of current basic pay before any OT is factored in.

I think you'd need that to do their job to be fair. More power to them.

TheDriver

judeboy101 wrote: »

And so begins project FEAR

More so propoganda and who believes eho