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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Subzero3

Well lads feeling good post marathon, did a few handy mile.

Regarding the marathon itself, I got what I when for after aiming for 2.50 rather then sub 3.

Still feel a bit of an anticlimax tho. Ran comfortable enough till about mile 21, by then the groins were starting to cramp. First time running past 21 miles so hope it was just conditioning rather then a muscle imbalance. Every 100 meters they would cramp and I was starting to worry that I would have to stop.

I slep very badly 3 and 2 days before the race, getting 4 hours Thursday, 5 hours Friday, and 6+1 Saturday.
Heart rate was very high looking back and I ran 1.03 in annarobic zone and the rest in threshold. The end of mile 2 it peaked even tho I was running only at pmp so I am not sure if it was fatigue or watch related.

Took water at every station, about 5-6 gels and energy/pace wise it felt good except for my groins. The muscle in my chin was cramping too so maybe I was talking to much

Though course was more rolling hills then anything. Mile 22 didn't knock anything out of me and 23/24 were my fastest. Last 2 were a slog just about kept the groins moving. Maybe easier up roebuck and I would of finish ed better who knows.

Krusty_Clown

Subzero3 wrote: »

Heart rate was very high looking back and I ran 1.03 in annarobic zone and the rest in threshold. The end of mile 2 it peaked even tho I was running only at pmp so I am not sure if it was fatigue or watch related.

Interesting. May have just been a spike. Got a link/URL?
What was your half way split?

conavitzky

Folks, Chapter 2 and Race report over on race report thread for those interested. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101558442#post101558442

pconn062

conavitzky wrote: »

Folks, Chapter 2 and Race report over on race report thread for those interested. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101558442#post101558442

That's a great read, well done. It's a great feeling when all the start align on the day.

Subzero3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Interesting. May have just been a spike. Got a link/URL?
What was your half way split?

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1427655843?share_unique_id=1

conavitzky

RayCun wrote: »

ah yeah, there's always the possibility of continuing to run, but doing something crazy like switching from marathons to the 800m

Thinking something along these lines myself, for the crack. Maybe not quite as drastic as 800m though.

conavitzky

pconn062 wrote: »

That's a great read, well done. It's a great feeling when all the start align on the day.

Thanks P. Have had that feeling in training before. First time in a race!

Sacksian

RayCun wrote: »

ah yeah, there's always the possibility of continuing to run, but doing something crazy like switching from marathons to the 800m

I did exactly that! Sub 3 felt more like a personal challenge that drew me into running. Sub 2 is proving a lot harder to crack than sub 3 and I'm spending a lot more time injured but I realised I really love racing and both middle-distance track and xc can give me that adrenalin in a way that other distances cannot.

Krusty_Clown

Subzero3 wrote: »

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1427655843?share_unique_id=1

Yeah, I'd say it's most certainly a spike. You'd expect some extra adrenaline over the first 1-2 miles (and typically right from the start), but nothing that high. So your max HR (169) was up Roebuck. Those extra 20-30 seconds over the last two miles would have seen you nicely under 2:50. Very even splits, but for those last two miles. Hope you're happy with that. It's a great run.

Subzero3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, I'd say it's most certainly a spike. You'd expect some extra adrenaline over the first 1-2 miles (and typically right from the start), but nothing that high. So your max HR (169) was up Roebuck. Those extra 20-30 seconds over the last two miles would have seen you nicely under 2:50. Very even splits, but for those last two miles. Hope you're happy with that. It's a great run.

My max is 180, only ever got that high once, usually used to max out at 177. Resting rate varys from 32 to 40 lying down.
I suppose I would of enjoyed it more if I had family there at the finish. Didn't look at time in watch had only 3 fields which were distance, lap pace and ave pace all laps. If I knew 1 Mile out I'd prob of pushed to get under. I am happy about everything bar the sleep and the groin cramps, as I would of finished stronger if they were not an issue.

busterjones

Hi All -
Although I didn't get (or train for) sub-3 in the recent DCM, I hope to for next year and was hoping for you advice please.
I got 3.31 in 2015 and 3:11 last week.
Although I trained quite hard this year, I know that I could have trained more cleverly.
My heart rate was very high for the majority of the race (see below) so I guess aiming to get this down but maintaining a similar pace should be something that I target.
Does that make sense? And if yes, what's the best approach to this in your experience please?
Thanks,
BJ
Z5 01:58:56
Z4 01:10:48
Z3 01:35
Z2 00:09
Z1 00:08

Splits Time Avg Pace Avg HR Max HR
1 07:20.0 07:20 150 167
2 06:49.4 06:49 164 171
3 07:07.1 07:07 166 170
4 07:08.1 07:08 164 172
5 07:16.4 07:16 159 163
6 07:10.0 07:10 161 168
7 07:20.8 07:21 162 168
8 06:49.6 06:50 159 168
9 07:12.6 07:13 156 164
10 06:58.9 06:59 156 163
11 07:20.2 07:20 160 176
12 07:17.4 07:17 165 171
13 07:19.6 07:20 167 180
14 07:18.5 07:19 168 180
15 07:07.7 07:08 169 175
16 07:10.6 07:11 168 172
17 07:13.1 07:13 167 173
18 06:59.2 06:59 168 172
19 07:15.1 07:15 167 172
20 07:06.9 07:07 173 190
21 07:16.4 07:16 169 177
22 07:46.3 07:46 181 189
23 07:22.4 07:22 175 187
24 07:42.1 07:42 177 188
25 07:59.2 07:59 179 187
26 07:44.4 07:44 175 186
27 02:18.1 06:59 172 177
Summary 03:11:30 07:16 167 190

Krusty_Clown

busterjones wrote: »

Hi All -
Although I didn't get (or train for) sub-3 in the recent DCM, I hope to for next year and was hoping for you advice please.
I got 3.31 in 2015 and 3:11 last week.

Assuming your max is around 195-200, 167 is probably reasonable enough as an average HR for your marathon pace. Without any idea of your background, mileage or history, it's hard to make any determination what you should do differently. But done sensibly, consistent weekly mileage helps you to lower your HR for the same pace. So the focus for the moment should be on getting good consistent mileage under your belt over the winter months. Perhaps you should try to split the next year into logical phases:
Until the end of January: consistent weekly mileage. Gradually build up until you are running 5/6 days per week with a long run at the weekend
February - April: Target 10k-specific training, maintaining the long run and including 10k-specific workouts (aim for 38-39 minutes)
May - June: Gradually increase the weekly mileage and train for a half marathon (taking in a 10 mile race along the way). Goal: 1:25 (63 mins for 10 miles).
July - October: Marathon-specific training.
November: Profit.

sideswipe

Now that I feel less of a fraud posting is this thread I think I'll pin my colours to the sub 3 mast! I got 3:07:42 in Frankfurt and am hoping to have a bash at sub 3 in Berlin next year (subject to lottery).

I was going to ask the question on making a plan for the year but Krusty has just answered it above before I asked it!

The thought of finding another 8 minutes scares me as I felt I left nothing out there. Like busterjones I felt my HR was high (90% of max average). But had my best marathon experience to date running hard but controlled with a 40 second negative split, in fact my last 2 miles were round sub 3 pace so I have to view that as a positive.

In relation to structuring the coming year I was thinking of starting 5k training in Dec through Jan moving on to 10k specific stuff in feb-march before giving a half mara a good lash in early summer (never actually trained for a half before) and then finally doing a 14 week marathon specific training block. Any thoughts on those timelines would be appreciated!

and still ricky villa

Congratulations sideswipe. I was in Frankfurt too (the less said about my result the better

)

I'm planning a sub 3 in Rotterdam in April and will be following the Hanson's plan
I used it in Dublin last year and until I tripped and fell just after halfway I was holding comfortable sub 3 pace.
To be honest though, I hadn't used the full plan as I had drifted to the darkside so was swimming and cycling at the same time.
This one will be 18 weeks of dedicated running

What's the consensus on the plan itself?
Looking online it's hard to find results for anyone who has used it to crack 3 hours the first time
I've a current PB of 3:09 and I finished feeling I'd more in the tank

Itziger

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Congratulations sideswipe. I was in Frankfurt too (the less said about my result the better )

I'm planning a sub 3 in Rotterdam in April and will be following the Hanson's plan
I used it in Dublin last year and until I tripped and fell just after halfway I was holding comfortable sub 3 pace.
To be honest though, I hadn't used the full plan as I had drifted to the darkside so was swimming and cycling at the same time.
This one will be 18 weeks of dedicated running

What's the consensus on the plan itself?
Looking online it's hard to find results for anyone who has used it to crack 3 hours the first time
I've a current PB of 3:09 and I finished feeling I'd more in the tank

Didn't Aero2k not use the Hanson plan? If I'm thinking of the right plan and the right poster.

RayCun

Itziger wrote: »

Didn't Aero2k not use the Hanson plan? If I'm thinking of the right plan and the right poster.

he did, maxing out at 16 mile long runs I think he said

and still ricky villa

Itziger wrote: »

Didn't Aero2k not use the Hanson plan? If I'm thinking of the right plan and the right poster.

Thanks lads, I found a good few posts to read through

Bez Bing

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Assuming your max is around 195-200, 167 is probably reasonable enough as an average HR for your marathon pace. Without any idea of your background, mileage or history, it's hard to make any determination what you should do differently. But done sensibly, consistent weekly mileage helps you to lower your HR for the same pace. So the focus for the moment should be on getting good consistent mileage under your belt over the winter months. Perhaps you should try to split the next year into logical phases:
Until the end of January: consistent weekly mileage. Gradually build up until you are running 5/6 days per week with a long run at the weekend
February - April: Target 10k-specific training, maintaining the long run and including 10k-specific workouts (aim for 38-39 minutes)
May - June: Gradually increase the weekly mileage and train for a half marathon (taking in a 10 mile race along the way). Goal: 1:25 (63 mins for 10 miles).
July - October: Marathon-specific training.
November: Profit.

You make it sound so easy Krusty, consistency really is the key.
What would recommend as a long run range for the winter/spring period?

Myles Splitz

Bez Bing wrote: »

You make it sound so easy Krusty, consistency really is the key.
What would recommend as a long run range for the winter/spring period?

Sorry butting in a bit here but the plan Krusty put up is eerily close to what I am doing myself.

Plan for long runs is 2 hours approx at easy pace (probably about 14-15 miles)

Krusty_Clown

sideswipe wrote: »

The thought of finding another 8 minutes scares me as I felt I left nothing out there.

Don't worry - that's just training cycles. You prepare your body to run at a particular pace and that's hopefully what you achieve on the day. You don't start over from scratch afterwards. As long as you maintain some level of consistency, your body doesn't unlearn what you've put it through before. So the next goal is to start training your body to maintain a new pace (or more specifically to endure at a new faster pace). Besides, a little fear is healthy. Gives you extra adrenaline and hopefully dampens the fires in the early parts of the race. I know I've said this 10+ times in this thread, but after I ran 3:00:50 in Berlin in 2010, I thought I was at my limits and never thought I would run faster. 2:55, 2:48, 2:46, 2:43, 2:38, 2:38, 2:35, 2:33 - that's how many time I've proved myself wrong.

sideswipe wrote: »

In relation to structuring the coming year I was thinking of starting 5k training in Dec through Jan moving on to 10k specific stuff in feb-march before giving a half mara a good lash in early summer (never actually trained for a half before) and then finally doing a 14 week marathon specific training block. Any thoughts on those timelines would be appreciated!

Though almost exactly twice the distance(?), the training for 5k and 10k is quite similar, so instead of working within 8 week blocks, you might find it more beneficial to work in a 16 week block, but really it's up to you. My own personal strategy would be to spend the longer period training for the 5k and race both distances towards the end of the plan. But if you see an 8 week 5k plan that you like, sure give it a go. Probably best to plan in some down-time, with Christmas gorging etc.

Krusty_Clown

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Sorry butting in a bit here but the plan Krusty put up is eerily close to what I am doing myself.

What are you suggesting? That I'm peeking at your plans through your webcam? Well, I can't cos you keep getting in the way. Interesting boxers by the way. I didn't realize that Duran Duran was still a thing.

tang1

Itziger wrote: »

Didn't Aero2k not use the Hanson plan? If I'm thinking of the right plan and the right poster.

Yeah, used it for Rotterdam & Dublin 2015. His race report from DCM 15 is the race report thread where he makes reference to Hanson.

conavitzky

busterjones wrote: »

Hi All -
Although I didn't get (or train for) sub-3 in the recent DCM, I hope to for next year and was hoping for you advice please.
I got 3.31 in 2015 and 3:11 last week.
Although I trained quite hard this year, I know that I could have trained more cleverly.
My heart rate was very high for the majority of the race (see below) so I guess aiming to get this down but maintaining a similar pace should be something that I target.
Does that make sense? And if yes, what's the best approach to this in your experience please?
Thanks,
BJ
Z5 01:58:56
Z4 01:10:48
Z3 01:35
Z2 00:09
Z1 00:08

Splits Time Avg Pace Avg HR Max HR
1 07:20.0 07:20 150 167
2 06:49.4 06:49 164 171
3 07:07.1 07:07 166 170
4 07:08.1 07:08 164 172
5 07:16.4 07:16 159 163
6 07:10.0 07:10 161 168
7 07:20.8 07:21 162 168
8 06:49.6 06:50 159 168
9 07:12.6 07:13 156 164
10 06:58.9 06:59 156 163
11 07:20.2 07:20 160 176
12 07:17.4 07:17 165 171
13 07:19.6 07:20 167 180
14 07:18.5 07:19 168 180
15 07:07.7 07:08 169 175
16 07:10.6 07:11 168 172
17 07:13.1 07:13 167 173
18 06:59.2 06:59 168 172
19 07:15.1 07:15 167 172
20 07:06.9 07:07 173 190
21 07:16.4 07:16 169 177
22 07:46.3 07:46 181 189
23 07:22.4 07:22 175 187
24 07:42.1 07:42 177 188
25 07:59.2 07:59 179 187
26 07:44.4 07:44 175 186
27 02:18.1 06:59 172 177
Summary 03:11:30 07:16 167 190

Great input from KC and Myles as always.
I suppose your approach could also depend on what your current strengths are. Are you pretty quick over the shorter stuff? That is, do your equivalent times for 5k-10k extrapolate to being sub 3 or not. In my own case, I had a 17 minute 5k and 35:xx minute 10k but knew endurance over longer distances was my issue.
Due to uncontrollable circumstances this year I couldn't do training for the shorter stuff and spent time working on longer stuff and my performance improved.
On the flip side if you are more endurance orientated, concentrating on getting the speed up over a longer period early in the year as the boys suggested should realise gains in this instance.

Myles Splitz

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What are you suggesting? That I'm peeking at your plans through your webcam? Well, I can't cos you keep getting in the way. Interesting boxers by the way. I didn't realize that Duran Duran was still a thing.

Duran Duran will always be a thing

For me next 12ish months

Nov-Jan - Base building (for me this will include hills, tempo reps, MP tempos)
Feb - May - 10k specific work
June - transition to marathon stuff
July - Sept - Marathon Specific work

davedanon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What are you suggesting? That I'm peeking at your plans through your webcam? Well, I can't cos you keep getting in the way. Interesting boxers by the way. I didn't realize that Duran Duran was still a thing.

Fair enough: although putting the live feed up on youtube was possibly a little unfair.

gucci

sideswipe wrote: »

Now that I feel less of a fraud posting is this thread I think I'll pin my colours to the sub 3 mast! I got 3:07:42 in Frankfurt and am hoping to have a bash at sub 3 in Berlin next year (subject to lottery).

I was going to ask the question on making a plan for the year but Krusty has just answered it above before I asked it!

The thought of finding another 8 minutes scares me as I felt I left nothing out there. Like busterjones I felt my HR was high (90% of max average). But had my best marathon experience to date running hard but controlled with a 40 second negative split, in fact my last 2 miles were round sub 3 pace so I have to view that as a positive.

In relation to structuring the coming year I was thinking of starting 5k training in Dec through Jan moving on to 10k specific stuff in feb-march before giving a half mara a good lash in early summer (never actually trained for a half before) and then finally doing a 14 week marathon specific training block. Any thoughts on those timelines would be appreciated!

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Congratulations sideswipe. I was in Frankfurt too (the less said about my result the better )

I'm planning a sub 3 in Rotterdam in April and will be following the Hanson's plan
I used it in Dublin last year and until I tripped and fell just after halfway I was holding comfortable sub 3 pace.
To be honest though, I hadn't used the full plan as I had drifted to the darkside so was swimming and cycling at the same time.
This one will be 18 weeks of dedicated running

What's the consensus on the plan itself?
Looking online it's hard to find results for anyone who has used it to crack 3 hours the first time
I've a current PB of 3:09 and I finished feeling I'd more in the tank

I will be following you guys progress over the next 12 months with great interest as I think I am in the same ball park (3:09:20 in DCM just passed)
If I am honest with myself, my training was not the best, so I probably slightly overachieved on the day, but having said that I done a spring marathon in 3:16 and felt I really had a lot more in the tank so am glad I squeezed a good healthy chunk off it.

Right now I don’t know if I have the dedication and if my actual real life demands will allow me to get the training nailed to take it on again next year, but I will hopefully recuperate over the next few weeks and have a good hard think about it over the Xmas break and try and establish some goals for next year, but it may be a stepping stone year as opposed to being in the position to try and go for it.
I like the idea of focusing on some of the shorter stuff in the first Quarter/ Half of next year though, that already sounds more appealing and probably will fit in better with my life and some of my training buddies schedules too.

aero2k

Itziger, RayCun and tang1 are correct, I did indeed follow the Hanson plan for Rotterdam and Dublin (trust tang1 to have the details), running 2:48 on each occasion, a 6 min improvement over my previous PB. I'll make a few comments which, while subjective, may still be helpful.

I previously had some success following P&d 55-70 (2:58 in CCM '14) and a messed up JD 2Q program (2:55 in DCM '14) - both those races came after 3-4 years of struggling to reproduce my best form.

The main appeal for me was the brutal simplicity of the program (emphasis on the brutal )- the weeks had a very similar structure (I'm a creature of habit rather than discipline) and the sessions were simple.

I think it's well suited to masters (I was 50 for Rotterdam and DCM '15) due to the relatively low mileage. Even though I don't have much natural ability to run fast, I find fast sessions easier to recover from than runs over 2 hours duration, though they might be involve more suffering during the session.

The long runs were always done on tired legs, at MP + 20-40 sec per mile which is very fast by my previous training standards.

Following the plan involved two significant changes to previous cycles. Firstly my mindset - I convinced myself that I could, and would, run sub 2:50, whereas previously it was more of a hope than a belief. Secondly, rather than taking it easy when my legs were sore, I ploughed on with the plan. I was careful to look for any signs of overtraining. I don't want to overstate the sore legs - most of the time they felt as if I'd had a vigorous massage but this eased off once I actually started running.
Target MP was 6:10 - I trained in the 6:10-6:15 range but never matched this for a full race. To be fair, conditions weren't ideal in either race. Many of the elites lost 3-4 min over the second half of Rotterdam, and my M50 idols were 2-3 min quicker in DCM this year compared to last year.

That's all I can think of for now - feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

and still ricky villa

Thanks aero2k,

I can't agree more on the mental side of trusting the training
I found I was capable of holding a faster pace on the MP training runs too but reeled myself in on race day not aware of the disaster to follow

How did you find the temptation, or was there any, to tack a few more miles onto the long run?
Did it enter your head during the race when you'd hit 10 miles on target pace and then 16 miles knowing you hadn't gone further in training? (Sorry if I'm now putting this in other people's heads)
I have read other reviews that the feeling of running out of gas never materialised despite the short length of the long runs. Is previous experience of going the full distance enough (I've 17 marathons done at this point)
I guess I'm stuck in the P&D and/or JD mindset of long runs up to and including 22 miles being essential

I know it's different for everyone but am curious as to your experience

aero2k

and still ricky villa wrote: »

How did you find the temptation, or was there any, to tack a few more miles onto the long run?

First time around I treated as an experiment (I'm an engineer) and I wanted to be able to judge if all the aspects of the plan worked. I'd never found the distance a problem in a marathon, but I did struggle to maintain the pace when tired, and the plan as described in the book seemed to address this by preparing you to run the last 16 miles of the marathon. I was tempted to throw in another mile or two tbh, but once I made the decision to follow the plan religiously it was fine, and time pressure helped a bit too.

Given the success of Rotterdam I had no doubts for Dublin.

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Did it enter your head during the race when you'd hit 10 miles on target pace and then 16 miles knowing you hadn't gone further in training? (Sorry if I'm now putting this in other people's heads)

Again, first time around it briefly crossed my mind, but I got to 10 miles faster than ever before, feeling better than ever before (I had done 9 marathons previously) so I was fine. In DCM '15 I wasn't too conscious of anything except hanging on for dear life to the group I was with, but I did feel very strong and confident, despite fatigue, at 20 miles.

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I have read other reviews that the feeling of running out of gas never materialised despite the short length of the long runs. Is previous experience of going the full distance enough (I've 17 marathons done at this point)

I think previous experience is invaluable whatever program you follow, but in the Hanson case moreso. It certainly helped me trust that I'd be fine as I had done the distance several times before. For that reason I wouldn't recommend the Hanson advanced program to a beginner - I think most people would be scared of the extra distance and time (in my case more than 1 hour) on race day.

snailsong

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Congratulations sideswipe. I was in Frankfurt too (the less said about my result the better )

I'm planning a sub 3 in Rotterdam in April and will be following the Hanson's plan
I used it in Dublin last year and until I tripped and fell just after halfway I was holding comfortable sub 3 pace.
To be honest though, I hadn't used the full plan as I had drifted to the darkside so was swimming and cycling at the same time.
This one will be 18 weeks of dedicated running

What's the consensus on the plan itself?
Looking online it's hard to find results for anyone who has used it to crack 3 hours the first time
I've a current PB of 3:09 and I finished feeling I'd more in the tank

I'll be interested to see how you get on.

I ran 3:06:xx in Rotterdam this year and will almost certainly be going back next April to see can I better that. Whether or not it's a sub 3 attempt remains to be seen. I intend to follow the p+d 55-70 mile plan. I've one more marathon at easy pace to do on Saturday and then I'll start an 18 week program. Also planning to start a log when I get my arse in gear.