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Poppy Middle Class Death Cult

ClovenHoof

I refused to wear a poppy in remembrance of the 'Great' War. Not because I have republican or shinner sympathies, but because when you really get down to it, it celebrates pointless mass slaughter by the European Aristocrats of millions of men, and it achieved nothing except set up the chess pieces for world war two.

I loathed these middle class self-consciousness Irish types going on about how they will wear a poppy as "Uncle Frank ran into a German Machine gun" for the same royal family which both armies were fighting for. Go back far enough in our history and we all have an Uncle Frank who was cut down in battle somewhere at sometime. No poppy or lily for them?

Then you get the other excuses in that a kind of class-based territorial pissing is involved. All the Sinn Fein knackers were a Lilly, so in order for Sentanta NiCasbastini to show he is middle class, he will wear a poppy.

You know what. It's all bollox and all you do is show the world that you are a cnut. If you had a brain you would realize it just all feeds into the same royal families who caused it. Rather trying to look inclusive, how about not wearing it and stop celebrating and glorifying mass murder so the same blue bloods can keep their castles and titles.

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Duck Soup

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that isn't a like for like comparison. The Iron Cross is a military medal, the poppy is a symbol of remembrance.

I don't know of anyone that would have an issue with the Germans wearing a symbol on their shirts for Volkstrauertag.

It's an interesting comparison. Whereas the poppy explicitly honours all UK military service (a British version, I suppose, of "Support Our Troops") past and present, the Volkstrauertag [literally "people's day of mourning"] commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, also to include victims of violent government oppression (which I'd take to be a direct reference to the Nazis).

So if we want the most precise comparison possible, let's change the Iron Cross to a blue cornflower (apparently a German national flower) and change the Volkstrauertag from a national day of mourning (soldiers and civilians) to a commemoration of German soldiers service, which would predominantly be WW1 and WW2.

So would the British government, people and media be happy for an England football team (or Welsh, Scottish or Norn Iron) to play a Germany team sporting a symbol commemorating the service of WW2 German soldiers? I think their heads would explode.

Galwayguy35

Someone should tell that MP what 1916 was about, getting a foreign power out of our country.

Something we would never have had to do if Britain hadn't an annoying habit of invading half the countries of the world, murdering and enslaving the native peoples and stealing all the natural resources.

sondagefaux

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

Why don't people living in Ireland who wish to commemorate the fallen of both world wars wear a French symbol at this time of year, or a Belgian symbol? Why does it have to be a British symbol? If the real motivation is to commemorate the dead, then adopting a French or Belgian symbol should be readily accepted. If the real motivation is to display some sort of loyalty or respect for the British state, which I suspect is true of most poppy wearers in the republic, then say so and stop pretending otherwise.

because i dont have any relatives who died while fighting in the french or belgian armies. quite simple really.

In other words, you're not commemorating the dead, you're commemorating the British army war dead. Quite simple.

sondagefaux

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Wear one if you want, don't wear one if you don't want to. Freedom of expression and all that, as is the right to comment. Isn't that what one side in ww2 was for and the other side wasn't?

yep, precisely.

Well, apart from the Soviet Union which wasn't exactly too keen on the whole freedom of speech thing...

[Deleted User]

sondagefaux wrote: »

In other words, you're not commemorating the dead, you're commemorating the British army war dead. Quite simple.

Interesting earlier post on what other symbols are worn. (France - Bleuet de France). What do the Belgians wear (if they do) as a matter of interest?

Well, apart from the Soviet Union which wasn't exactly too keen on the whole freedom of speech thing...

Yes, I'll admit thats a hazy concept with the Russians.... Then again they did lose 27 million killed and did the heavy lifting on the ww2 European land battlefields.

ohnonotgmail

sondagefaux wrote: »

In other words, you're not commemorating the dead, you're commemorating the British army war dead. Quite simple.

i will report my first post on the thread. you seem to have missed it

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The purpose of the poppy is not to remember the great war, the purpose is to remember those who fell in that war. a significant number of which were irish. hopefully i can get my hands on one of the nice enamel. and i'm not middle class. neither were most of the soldiers who died. the OP is one of the biggest loads of nonsense i've seen on boards. and thats a pretty low bar.

Fratton Fred

Duck Soup wrote: »

It's an interesting comparison. Whereas the poppy explicitly honours all UK military service (a British version, I suppose, of "Support Our Troops") past and present, the Volkstrauertag [literally "people's day of mourning"] commemorates members of the German armed forces and civilians who died in armed conflicts, also to include victims of violent government oppression (which I'd take to be a direct reference to the Nazis).

So if we want the most precise comparison possible, let's change the Iron Cross to a blue cornflower (apparently a German national flower) and change the Volkstrauertag from a national day of mourning (soldiers and civilians) to a commemoration of German soldiers service, which would predominantly be WW1 and WW2.

So would the British government, people and media be happy for an England football team (or Welsh, Scottish or Norn Iron) to play a Germany team sporting a symbol commemorating the service of WW2 German soldiers? I think their heads would explode.

Britain and Germany regularly hold joint commemoration ceremonies. There's a big one every year at the German war cemetery in Cannock Chase. The British and German armies regularly train together and fought alongside each other in Afghanistan as well, so I don't see what the problem is.

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, I'll admit thats a hazy concept with the Russians.... Then again they did lose 27 million killed and did the heavy lifting on the ww2 European land battlefields.

Pre or post Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?

sondagefaux

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

In other words, you're not commemorating the dead, you're commemorating the British army war dead. Quite simple.

i will report my first post on the thread. you seem to have missed it

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The purpose of the poppy is not to remember the great war, the purpose is to remember those who fell in that war. a significant number of which were irish. hopefully i can get my hands on one of the nice enamel. and i'm not middle class. neither were most of the soldiers who died. the OP is one of the biggest loads of nonsense i've seen on boards. and thats a pretty low bar.

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

sondagefaux

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I'll admit thats a hazy concept with the Russians.... Then again they did lose 27 million killed and did the heavy lifting on the ww2 European land battlefields.

Pre or post Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?

Good ol' Uncle Joe - only one of the worst mass murderers in human history. Still, he did have a nicer moustache than Hitler's so he wasn't all bad.

The notion that the Allies, which included the Soviet Union under Stalin, and the French and British empires (in which millions died of starvation during WWII: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html) were fighting in favour of democracy is utterly risible when you examine the facts of how they behaved before, during and after WWII.

Ireland was absolutely right to stay out of that morally bankrupt slaughter in which totalitarian brutes fought against each other over control of Europe with the support of racist, genocidal imperial powers.

ohnonotgmail

sondagefaux wrote: »

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

of course it does. was this not clear already? I suppose that makes me some sort of enemy of the people or some such ****e.

[Deleted User]

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Pre or post Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?

1941 to 45?

Fratton Fred

sondagefaux wrote: »

Good ol' Uncle Joe - only one of the worst mass murderers in human history. Still, he did have a nicer moustache than Hitler's so he wasn't all bad.

The notion that the Allies, which included the Soviet Union under Stalin, and the French and British empires (in which millions died of starvation during WWII: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html) were fighting in favour of democracy is utterly risible when you examine the facts of how they behaved before, during and after WWII.

Ireland was absolutely right to stay out of that morally bankrupt slaughter in which totalitarian brutes fought against each other over control of Europe with the support of racist, genocidal imperial powers.

I guess the only way to look back on it, is did the right side win?

You may see it as a squabble between morally bankrupt empires, but one was significantly worse than the rest. Fortunately, they lost.

LordSutch

sondagefaux wrote: »

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

Well of course it started out as a symbol of remembrance for British soldiers who died in the Great War (many of whom were Irish), hence the poppy was worn to commemorate & remember those British/Irish who died on the poppy fields, then after WWII to poppy was worn in Britain & Ireland to commemorate British/Irish losses in both wars, and since WWII the symbol has evolved to where we are today, where the poppy is worn to remember all war dead. British, Irish, Commonwealth, German, French .... The Poppy is a symbol of somber remembrance for all those who died in all wars and from all sides.

Fratton Fred

sondagefaux wrote: »

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

and the easter Lilly?

iirc, there was a certain amount of knicker wetting within republican circles when the Irish government government chose to remember the "Opposing side" in the 1916 commemorations.

sondagefaux

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

of course it does. was this not clear already? I suppose that makes me some sort of enemy of the people or some such ****e.

No. Just a deluded idiot supporting an evil death machine.

sondagefaux

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Duck Soup wrote: »

In that context, I'd have to agree with FIFA about the use of the poppy on football shirts. It commemorates the service of those who fought against Germany, Argentina and many other countries with better football teams. Would English people be happy to see a German national team take the field with Iron Crosses on the sleeves?

that isn't a like for like comparison. The Iron Cross is a military medal, the poppy is a symbol of remembrance.

I don't know of anyone that would have an issue with the Germans wearing a symbol on their shirts for Volkstrauertag.

Fratton Fred

sondagefaux wrote: »

Mortpourvelo

Half the posts here including the OP I am reading in the voices of Dylan the Rabbit from Magic Roundabout and Neil from the Young Ones.

It helps.

Lt Dan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and the easter Lilly?

iirc, there was a certain amount of knicker wetting within republican circles when the Irish government government chose to remember the "Opposing side" in the 1916 commemorations.

It commemorates the men of 1916. However, it also clearly remembers the "men of violence" of the 1960's onwards. Proceeds go to them and their families

Most people in the South of Ireland refuse to wear an Easter Lilly because of it. You will get no one ringing up RTE to complain that O'Callaghan and chums are not wearing one, unlike the Poppy in England

beach_walker

I have no problem with British people wearing the poppy (even if it has gone a bit nuts in recent years). However anyone wearing one in Ireland is doing so purely for attention.

LordSutch

And you Mr beach walker are probably trying to get a 'rise' from people like me?

Believe me, on remembrance Sunday itself our Church will be full of poppy wearing Irish folk. All of whom will be commemorating family loved ones from the past, & the utter loss and futility of war.

ohnonotgmail

beach_walker wrote: »

I have no problem with British people wearing the poppy (even if it has gone a bit nuts in recent years). However anyone wearing one in Ireland is doing so purely for attention.

i love how some people think they can speak for people they have never met.

MeatTwoVeg

I don't wear symbols, but fair dues to anyone who wants to wear one in Ireland, a lot of Irish people have served in the British Army.

The Easter Lilly on the other hand is basically stating that you support terrorists and state subversives.
I'd have nothing but content for anyone I'd see wearing one. Thankfully it doesn't seem to be a thing here, I've seen far more people wearing poppies than Lilly's.

tipptom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and the easter Lilly?

iirc, there was a certain amount of knicker wetting within republican circles when the Irish government government chose to remember the "Opposing side" in the 1916 commemorations.

The opposing side!!!

Yeah,sure every little country that was invaded and ruled by a massive brutal and savage force needs to remember the murderous terrorist scum that brought and maintained that terror to their country and maybe they should chuck a few quid to the ex soldiers who have hit on hard times since their terrorist hey day terrorising the people of the subjugated country.

That makes perfect sense.

You just couldn't make this sh*t up.

Fratton Fred

tipptom wrote: »

The opposing side!!!

Yeah,sure every little country that was invaded and ruled by a massive brutal and savage force needs to remember the murderous terrorist scum that brought and maintained that terror to their country and maybe they should chuck a few quid to the ex soldiers who have hit on hard times since their terrorist hey day terrorising the people of the subjugated country.

That makes perfect sense.

You just couldn't make this sh*t up.

Nice demonstration of republican knicker wetting Tom, thanks.

sondagefaux

Looks like FIFA isn't going to back down on England and Scotland wearing poppies judging by this decision against the Republic of Ireland:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/fifa-charge-fai-for-wearing-1916-commemoration-jersey-35188038.html

[Deleted User]

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

fair dues to anyone who wants to wear one in Ireland, a lot of Irish people have served in the British Army.

The Easter Lilly on the other hand is basically stating that you support terrorists and state subversives.

Given that the British poppy commemorates all who fought and died in all wars for the British state, yours is nothing more than another pathetic instance of British bigotry - "when we use violence, it's worthy of commemoration!". So, the British state killing tens of thousands of women and children British concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century, interning up to a million Kenyans in euphemistically named "enclosed villages" in the 1950s, while torturing tens of thousands of them followed by the execution of over 10,000 Kenyans by the British colonial state in colonial sham trials, British state involvement in the murder of countless Irish people via collusion with loyalists, a state shoot-to-kill policy and a state policy of torture against innocent Irish citizens and so very, very, very much more - that's worth wearing your British poppy to commemorate!

Get out of that garden, sunshine.

How did they get away with it: British rule in 1950s Kenya

The_Valeyard

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

I don't wear symbols, but fair dues to anyone who wants to wear one in Ireland, a lot of Irish people have served in the British Army.

The Easter Lilly on the other hand is basically stating that you support terrorists and state subversives.
I'd have nothing but content for anyone I'd see wearing one. Thankfully it doesn't seem to be a thing here, I've seen far more people wearing poppies than Lilly's.

Wha?
Lot of places in the world would view the British Army as terrorists and State subversives.

sondagefaux

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

The poppy commemorates British soldiers. Not soldiers of any other state.

and the easter Lilly?

iirc, there was a certain amount of knicker wetting within republican circles when the Irish government government chose to remember the "Opposing side" in the 1916 commemorations.

I don't know of any widespread campaigns in Ireland to badger people into wearing the Easter Lily, do you?