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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

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Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Frankly, there are some strange cultural practices in America that remain unique to that country, and simply are not applicable elsewhere.

silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The Japanese "grass eater" might be a localised thing. However I think in a country like the US economic forces mean more men are falling into this kind of lifestyle. by virtue of the dependable car factory job being turned into a rolling 6 month contract working in some god awful Amazon warehouse its easy enough to have your 20's and 30's drift away from you.?

silverharp

here is a graph that might sum it up, throw in the lower quality of the jobs at the margin and you have a goodly group that would be it relative "f0ck it" mode

fredgraph+(1).png?rendition=image480

eeguy

silverharp wrote: »

here is a graph that might sum it up, throw in the lower quality of the jobs at the margin and you have a goodly group that would be it relative "f0ck it" mode

I find it hard to believe that 1/3 of men of working age are choosing not to work.

silverharp

eeguy wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that 1/3 of men of working age are choosing not to work.

I have heard another stat that for every man on unemployment in the US there are 3 others not working. might be a grey economy etc. the US isn't exactly the best place in the world to not have money coming in or maybe that's where the "moms basement" meme comes from. You could probably dig into it an look for racial difference as well.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

here is a graph that might sum it up, throw in the lower quality of the jobs at the margin and you have a goodly group that would be it relative "f0ck it" mode

You cant throw up a graph like that with no supporting information whatsoever.

A few links down provides more detailed information in a study.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20160620_cea_primeage_male_lfp.pdf

From the conclusion:

No single factor can fully explain this decline, but analysis suggests that a reduction in the demand for less skilled labor has been a key cause of declining participation rates as well as lower wages for less skilled workers.

kunst nugget

eeguy wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that 1/3 of men of working age are choosing not to work.

Yeah, I think there needs to be more information surrounding that graph to actually know what it means - Does the graph look at all men in the population or are we seeing only those of working age? Does it take into account retirees and the like?

silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

You cant throw up a graph like that with no supporting information whatsoever.

A few links down provides more detailed information in a study.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20160620_cea_primeage_male_lfp.pdf

From the conclusion:

it doesn't change anything, Ive said in various ways that they are in the circumstances whether they choose it or not. Just like the Japanese, I don't think they read something on the net and said "lets be grass eaters fck the wimmins". the Japanese economy didn't restructure themselves so they have been limping along since 89, there is probably a multi generational pulling up of the ladders there
In the US as elsewhere there has been a change in terms of rewards for mental labour versus physical labour. asset prices like property have risen ahead of incomes and I guess open migration and trade have hollowed out jobs/conditions at the mid to low end.
Either a society makes an attempt to invest more men in the system or it doesn't, as "doesn't" seems to be policy or non policy more men will drift/"shirk" away from what their supposed "duty" is.

Zubeneschamali

silverharp wrote: »

Either a society makes an attempt to invest more men in the system or it doesn't, as "doesn't" seems to be policy or non policy more men will drift/"shirk" away from what their supposed "duty" is.

If this means fewer awkward chat-up attempts by guys with no social skills in Coppers, I am sure the women of Ireland will be grateful.

[seriously, i have no idea what this thread is about at this stage...]

silverharp

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yeah, I think there needs to be more information surrounding that graph to actually know what it means - Does the graph look at all men in the population or are we seeing only those of working age? Does it take into account retirees and the like?

here is one that might be more informative

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

Males

25 to 34 age group and roughly 70% for the 20-24 age group now. so 1 in 5 not officially working and another 10% say in burger flipping jobs. you are getting close to 1 in 4 or 1/3 men that are invisible in society?

83.2 1994

82.7 2004

81.2 2014

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

Either a society makes an attempt to invest more men in the system or it doesn't, as "doesn't" seems to be policy or non policy more men will drift/"shirk" away from what their supposed "duty" is.

I dont really understand what you mean by this?

You want the government to step in to help men who hate women?

SarahMollie

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the whole Japanese situation more commonly attributed to family pressure to excel academically? Children/teens study so hard that they basically miss their childhood/adolescence and therefore have a delayed form of such at a point when they should be adults?

AFAIK both genders are somewhat impacted, so its not the same as the MGTOW issue.

kunst nugget

SarahMollie wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the whole Japanese situation more commonly attributed to family pressure to excel academically? Children/teens study so hard that they basically miss their childhood/adolescence and therefore have a delayed form of such at a point when they should be adults?

AFAIK both genders are somewhat impacted, so its not the same as the MGTOW issue.

I think it's about an 80/20 split in the Japanese situation so it is a lot more men than women.

SarahMollie

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think it's about an 80/20 split in the Japanese situation so it is a lot more men than women.

True, but I also don't believe the underlying reason is hatred/fear/resentment of the opposite sex. Its more apathy from what I can see.

kunst nugget

silverharp wrote: »

here is one that might be more informative

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

Males

25 to 34 age group and roughly 70% for the 20-24 age group now. so 1 in 5 not officially working and another 10% say in burger flipping jobs. you are getting close to 1 in 4 or 1/3 men that are invisible in society?

83.2 1994

82.7 2004

81.2 2014

I would have thought 1 in 5 not officially working in the age group (20-24) where people are traditionally going to college was not an outrageous figure. Am I totally reading it wrong?

Ardillaun

Just to go back to the title, more men in the US are dropping out of traditional roles. Fewer (as in a smaller percentage) are married with children and fewer have full-time jobs with benefits. These trends are most obvious among poorer Americans. I don't think anybody can say for sure what the causes and effects are here. Some prefer economic explanations, some look to a decline of traditional values to explain what is happening and others to a combination of factors. The other question is whether US trends will become global. I tend to think they will.

Potatoeman

Ardillaun wrote: »

Just to go back to the title, more men in the US are dropping out of traditional roles. Fewer (as in a smaller percentage) are married with children and fewer have full-time jobs with benefits. These trends are most obvious among poorer Americans. I don't think anybody can say for sure what the causes and effects are here. Some prefer economic explanations, some look to a decline of traditional values to explain what is happening and others to a combination of factors. The other question is whether US trends will become global. I tend to think they will.

Wouldn't that be related to the shrinking middleclass and be a drop of lifestyle for younger generations both men and women. Though women are far more dependant on welfare than men. That said welfare cuts would reduce 'lifestyle choices' where the individual is better off on welfare.

midnight city

Ardillaun wrote: »

The other question is whether US trends will become global. I tend to think they will.

I think they will, lets be honest working can be a drag and if people feel that there is no chance of advancement in their dead end job. They why would they bother busting themselves at a low paid job they don't like. With equality they aren't needed as the main breadwinner anymore as most women are working now. I don't see the attraction for many under educated men in the work force. The same applies to full time work for under educated women too i suppose. Will they really want to bust themselves in a dead end job either.

Eric Cartman

eeguy wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that 1/3 of men of working age are choosing not to work.

you've never been near a pub on dole day my friend. I wouldn't believe over that figure, but somewhere between 20-30% sounds about right. especially in the under 30 bracket.

grumpynerd

We invented machines to replace ourselves as a gender. They'll also replace us as a species.

The masons made us to make machines to make things for them.

They'll keep a marxist light brown rootless gender bended cyborg slave caste though, to interact with machines where necessary.

Hence: avoid all effort which'll be used at my own abuse, replacement etc.

Avoid all work and be prepared to commit suicide when life gets really bad.

grumpynerd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I like being a hermit. I only leave the house after dark, shop once a week, and order the odd 2nd hand book or cd off amazon for peanuts.

FloatingVoter

Christ, I'm alone and lonely - have been for a quarter of a century. But it's my fault, through drink, not seeing what was in front of my eyes maybe, not being brave when I was trying to look cool, whatever. A million reasons, a few that if I had a TARDIS....
Now I'm looking at people half my age trying to justify the same mistakes, blaming it on wimmin with graphs. A bloke with a job in Burgerking can cook and do so under pressure. What of it ?
Ever had to con your way into an endoscopy saying the girlfriend was on the way - but tied up in a business call - so you could blame the fiction later for not showing up. That is well and truly blaming fictional women for your problems. And I'll buy Germaine Greer a drink while we laugh about hospital polities. Over fags in the bike shed.

Mr Arrior

I get the feeling that Irish women don't really want to be approached in every day life. How do you tackle trying to get the attention of a woman in an every day scenario, if you see a beautiful Lady that is a friend of a mutual friend online, is it OK to try and get in contact out of nothing.
All questions that have me baffled.

FloatingVoter

Irish women are nervous little squaws who'd like it dead easy and pull George Clooney online in the morning. And you'd like Jennifer Aniston to make you her toyboy. Eventually, we all settle for reality. A minority don't and as I implied above many posts back Tinder is facilitating this.
The UK, Oz, Easter Euro perfect women myth is because they are all on holidays. We're the Shirley Valentine Greek waiter. When we trip abroad we are the fella with the brogue and the line of chatter. 'tis all bull****. A quick lay at best and nothing more to come.
This entire thread is serving to remind me why I was an embittered little drunk and in the week since it's began I've upped my game and downed the cynicism. Nobody has gotten close, but I've felt less closed when out in the real world.
That isn't vitriol directed at anyone. Maybe gratitude.

tomwaterford

Mr Arrior wrote: »

I get the feeling that Irish women don't really want to be approached in every day life. How do you tackle trying to get the attention of a woman in an every day scenario, if you see a beautiful Lady that is a friend of a mutual friend online, is it OK to try and get in contact out of nothing.
All questions that have me baffled.

Streak naked....you'll get all the attention you want

May not be positive....but you'll get the attention

Either that or just say hello?

FloatingVoter

Hello works...or just admit to one of them that you're baffled.

Dr Jakub

Things have gone backward. In the 'bad old days' a man could raise a family on a single pay check. Ok, you'd live in a modest house and didn't go abroad every year but so what. Now you scrape together every penny for the privilege of living in commuter hell. Or spend your entire life renting from some vulture fund in New York, nothing to leave to your kids. Meanwhile you got raped in the divorce courts. Tell a dirty joke in work and you get hauled in front the Nazi HR people. Your corrupt leaders are are working on a modern day plantation scheme, and the smug liberals who live in a 99% homogeneous area tell you it's for your own good

The modern world is not a place for any kind of man.

El_Duderino 09

Dr Jakub wrote:

Things have gone backward. In the 'bad old days' a man could raise a family on a single pay check. Ok, you'd live in a modest house and didn't go abroad every year but so what.

The fact that women have to work to earn enough for the family is hardly woman's fault. Women and men are in the same boat. Instead of rowing together, some would prefer to turn on each other.

Dr Jakub wrote:

Now you scrape together every penny for the privilege of living in commuter hell. Or spend your entire life renting from some vulture fund in New York, nothing to leave to your kids. Meanwhile you got raped in the divorce courts. Tell a dirty joke in work and you get hauled in front the Nazi HR people. Your corrupt leaders are are working on a modern day plantation scheme

I hope you're at least enjoying your persecution complex.

Dr Jakub wrote:

and the smug liberals who live in a 99% homogeneous area tell you it's for your own good

Why would it be the fault of smug liberals? Do liberals not have to rent from the vulture funds or get raped in divorce court?

Dr Jakub wrote:

The modern world is not a place for any kind of man.

Ah most men get on fine. Some people might not be cut out for it but I'm sure that has always been the case. Their choices are to try to fit in, try to change things or throw their toys out of the pram and blame the modern world. Which would you do Dr Jakub?

kunst nugget

Dr Jakub wrote: »

Things have gone backward. In the 'bad old days' a man could raise a family on a single pay check. Ok, you'd live in a modest house and didn't go abroad every year but so what. Now you scrape together every penny for the privilege of living in commuter hell. Or spend your entire life renting from some vulture fund in New York, nothing to leave to your kids. Meanwhile you got raped in the divorce courts. Tell a dirty joke in work and you get hauled in front the Nazi HR people. Your corrupt leaders are are working on a modern day plantation scheme, and the smug liberals who live in a 99% homogeneous area tell you it's for your own good

The modern world is not a place for any kind of man.

Boohoo, everybody hates me because I has a peepee…

The stench of self pity off that post is unbelievable.