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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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Inspector Coptoor

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

But isn't the expectation that we won't be paid?

That's what government are saying.
I believe their bluff should be called.

CWF

judeboy101 wrote: »

I've heard from a few friends in schools where the bom has closed the school from Monday only to open it again in evening time because facilities are used for training and evening classes. Anyone else think that's weird?

I'm awaiting clarification on this myself from the union.

2011abc

Teachers should picket schools for those 'evening sessions'.Outrageous !

implausible

2011abc wrote:

Teachers should picket schools for those 'evening sessions'.Outrageous !

Why? Do the evening classes involve ASTI members teaching the secondary school curriculum? If not, the school is just a building being used to facilitate other types of education. Nothing to do with the current action.

Peppa Pig

2011abc wrote: »

Teachers should picket schools for those 'evening sessions'.Outrageous !

Teachers won't even picket during school hours, so it's difficult to see any logic here.

judeboy101

implausible wrote: »

Why? Do the evening classes involve ASTI members teaching the secondary school curriculum? If not, the school is just a building being used to facilitate other types of education. Nothing to do with the current action.

Its an issue if a BOM deny students access in the morning to school while at the same time telling the same students its ok to come to school in evening time because you've paid

CWF

implausible wrote: »

Why? Do the evening classes involve ASTI members teaching the secondary school curriculum? If not, the school is just a building being used to facilitate other types of education. Nothing to do with the current action.

The person in charge of the evening classes is ASTI. Who would open the school? The caretaker refusing to because she doesn't want to pass the picket

coillsaille

CWF wrote: »

The person in charge of the evening classes is ASTI. Who would open the school? The caretaker refusing to because she doesn't want to pass the picket

But the only day that there will be picket is Tuesday as that is the only strike day next week. There is no picket to cross any other day. Plus pickets are only in place until the end of the school day.
Aside from that, the fact that a BOM would lock out its staff is galling enough but to then lift the lock out for evening classes or activities just adds insult to injury.

km79

I hope something constructive comes out of this meeting today

Mardy Bum

On Monday ASTI members are to leave after the first class period after signing a form which the SS has. There are no pickets.

implausible

judeboy101 wrote:

Its an issue if a BOM deny students access in the morning to school while at the same time telling the same students its ok to come to school in evening time because you've paid

There's no expectation of s/s in the evenings. Only an issue if ASTI members are involved as in the case below:

CWF wrote:

The person in charge of the evening classes is ASTI. Who would open the school? The caretaker refusing to because she doesn't want to pass the picket

TheDriver

Pickets and strikes are generally only for the school day and usually don't affect evening classes, same situation arose with TUI strike day 2 years ago. The theory is that second level education is finished and those students are gone. Only time this can be an issue is after school study that affects same kids.

CWF

coillsaille wrote: »

But the only day that there will be picket is Tuesday as that is the only strike day next week. There is no picket to cross any other day. Plus pickets are only in place until the end of the school day.
Aside from that, the fact that a BOM would lock out its staff is galling enough but to then lift the lock out for evening classes or activities just adds insult to injury.

Yes but the evening classes are Tuesdays Wed and Thurs, it had to be cancelled last Thursday because of the strike. The strike lasts for 24 hours, just because no body is at the gate doesn't mean the strike isn't still going on

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

Pickets and strikes are generally only for the school day and usually don't affect evening classes, same situation arose with TUI strike day 2 years ago. The theory is that second level education is finished and those students are gone. Only time this can be an issue is after school study that affects same kids.

That's not the case. This was the TUI/ASTI advice during the last two strike days (Dec 2014, Jan 2015):

Q I teach night classes in my school/centre after hours. Can I still take those classes?
A No. The strike lasts 24 hours.

Q I am the Principal of a school/Manager of a Centre that hosts night classes. May I open the school/centre to allow those teaching the class to enter?
A No. The strike lasts 24 hours.

Now the closure of schools due to S&S withdrawal is different but it's not true to say pickets and strikes only last the school day.

implausible

Dominik Mammoth Millionaire wrote:

That's not the case. This was the TUI/ASTI advice during the last two strike days (Dec 2014, Jan 2015):

Q I teach night classes in my school/centre after hours. Can I still take those classes? A No. The strike lasts 24 hours.

Q I am the Principal of a school/Manager of a Centre that hosts night classes. May I open the school/centre to allow those teaching the class to enter? A No. The strike lasts 24 hours.

Now the closure of schools due to S&S withdrawal is different but it's not true to say pickets and strikes only last the school day.

That was the advice to union members who were on strike. There is nothing stopping other people using the school building for other purposes, unless union members are involved.

deiseindublin

Article in IT today saying how unrealistic it is to threaten sanctions against Gardaí for striking on Friday. Would love if author, Richard Grogan, employment law solicitor, commented on pay being withdrawn from teachers if they don't fulfill S&S.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/threat-to-discipline-12-000-garda%C3%AD-is-empty-and-unrealistic-1.2851864

r93kaey5p2izun

implausible wrote: »

That was the advice to union members who were on strike. There is nothing stopping other people using the school building for other purposes, unless union members are involved.

Yes I never said otherwise. My post was in response to The Driver's assertion that strikes and pickets only last the school day, that night classes are unaffected and that it's only second level education that's an issue.

coillsaille

coillsaille wrote: »

But the only day that there will be picket is Tuesday as that is the only strike day next week. There is no picket to cross any other day. Plus pickets are only in place until the end of the school day.
Aside from that, the fact that a BOM would lock out its staff is galling enough but to then lift the lock out for evening classes or activities just adds insult to injury.

Just to clarify. I was addressing CWF's post about the caretaker not wanting to cross the picket to open the school for evening classes. The picket will only be in place Tuesday until normal school closing time. But yes ASTI members are on strike for 24 hours and should not undertake evening classes on strike days.

political analyst

deiseindublin wrote: »

Article in IT today saying how unrealistic it is to threaten sanctions against Gardaí for striking on Friday. Would love if author, Richard Grogan, employment law solicitor, commented on pay being withdrawn from teachers if they don't fulfill S&S.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/threat-to-discipline-12-000-garda%C3%AD-is-empty-and-unrealistic-1.2851864

In the eyes of the Dept, S&S became part of teachers' jobs upon the unions' acceptance of HRA and teachers had to have known that regaining payment for S&S was dependent on acceptance of LRA.

Inspector Coptoor

political analyst wrote: »

deiseindublin wrote: »

Article in IT today saying how unrealistic it is to threaten sanctions against Garda for striking on Friday. Would love if author, Richard Grogan, employment law solicitor, commented on pay being withdrawn from teachers if they don't fulfill S&S.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/threat-to-discipline-12-000-garda%C3%AD-is-empty-and-unrealistic-1.2851864

In the eyes of the Dept, S&S became part of teachers' jobs upon the unions' acceptance of HRA and teachers had to have known that regaining payment for S&S was dependent on acceptance of LRA.

We knew no such thing.

political analyst

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

We knew no such thing.

Did you really think you would regain payment for S&S if LRA wasn't accepted?

Inspector Coptoor

political analyst wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

We knew no such thing.

Did you really think you would regain payment for S&S if LRA wasn't accepted?

Yes.

We followed the Haddington Road "Coercion" to the letter.

Nowhere did it say payment was contingent on being part of LRA.

End of discussion.

km79

Both ASTI and DEPT have requested tomorrow's public meeting of oireachtas education committee NOT go ahead 1/2
As the TD who suggested this meeting, I consented to an adjournment for a week. I take it as good news that both are talking seriously 2/2

From Thomas byrne TD twitter page

What does this mean

Mardy Bum

km79 wrote: »

Both ASTI and DEPT have requested tomorrow's public meeting of oireachtas education committee NOT go ahead 1/2
As the TD who suggested this meeting, I consented to an adjournment for a week. I take it as good news that both are talking seriously 2/2

From Thomas byrne TD twitter page

What does this mean

Department probably cannot send the representatives they want because they will be in talks. ASTI may be have been asked to attend it also and cannot because they are in talks also. The main players from the department may be taking part in the meetings. Just a guess though.

feardeas

km79 wrote:

From Thomas byrne TD twitter page

km79 wrote:

Both ASTI and DEPT have requested tomorrow's public meeting of oireachtas education committee NOT go ahead 1/2 As the TD who suggested this meeting, I consented to an adjournment for a week. I take it as good news that both are talking seriously 2/2

km79 wrote:

What does this mean

Could mean talks are going well and that they're close to a resolution that could be acceptable. The deafening silence from ASTI might suggest the same.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

Could mean talks are going well and that they're close to a resolution that could be acceptable. The deafening silence from ASTI might suggest the same.

I t nd to agree

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

Could mean talks are going well and that they're close to a resolution that could be acceptable. The deafening silence from ASTI might suggest the same.

Id be shocked if they have managed to sort out JC reform, pay parity, CP hours and s&s in a couple of days of chatting. Id say a deal to avert s&s closure +maybe JC by Monday and push rest out til next year when they start negotiations on LR 2.0

feardeas

judeboy101 wrote:

Id be shocked if they have managed to sort out JC reform, pay parity, CP hours and s&s in a couple of days of chatting. Id say a deal to avert s&s closure +maybe JC by Monday and push rest out til next year when they start negotiations on LR 2.0

Possibly, yes. However there will need to be at least the progress the other unions got with lpt along with clear unambiguous language that the government intends to have full equalisation in a reasonable timeframe.

Averting closure on Monday is the primary aim of the government I'd say and would be good pr for ASTI. I just think it will mean CP hours etc. The dept need to make it clear to JMB that the 8 up to 10 hours will be flexible.

I believe that the dept want it done. The talks to succeed LRA will possibly be brought forward but I think when this is over the stomach for prolonged industrial action may be weakened.

Daisy 55

Doubt if JC is being discussed at all.

seavill

political analyst wrote: »

deiseindublin wrote: »

Article in IT today saying how unrealistic it is to threaten sanctions against Garda for striking on Friday. Would love if author, Richard Grogan, employment law solicitor, commented on pay being withdrawn from teachers if they don't fulfill S&S.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/threat-to-discipline-12-000-garda%C3%AD-is-empty-and-unrealistic-1.2851864

In the eyes of the Dept, S&S became part of teachers' jobs upon the unions' acceptance of HRA and teachers had to have known that regaining payment for S&S was dependent on acceptance of LRA.

This is the second time you posted this comment but everyone ignored it the first time.

How exactly would we have known that it was dependant on acceptance of LRA. LRA did not exist two or three years ago when we signed up to this agreement.
Our agreement was do S&S for the length of HRA and get two payments for this in 2017 and 2018.
Where was it written that we had to agree to another agreement?

Which parts of LRA do we guess are dependant on another agreement in 2 years time? Can you tel us this or do we just guess? Which deals that the government tell us are we supposed to believe and which ones do we guess are linked to something else that doesn't yet exist that may or may not happen in two years time?

Your bull sh1t is really annoying at times.

If we went back to the sign up to HRA and were writing here that the government can't be trusted and they won't follow through on what they promise you would be the first one on here criticising us.

How about you make some meaningful comtribution to the thread rather than just constantly throwing out stupid questions to try wind people up.
I would estimate that 80% of your posts are just questions to wind people up.