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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

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GreenFolder2

sondagefaux wrote: »

A French Departement is roughly the equivalent of an Irish county...

French postal codes are a poor model to use really for Ireland. They would never have worked. All they do is tell you the nearest town.

Cork would be something like 21000. Douglas might be 21100 and so on.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we quit talking about Eircoode Design on here. Restrict yourself to just commenting on implementation or refrain from posting.

sondagefaux

One week to go:
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Autoaddress [ltr]@autoaddress[/ltr] Oct 17[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]#Eircode Success Stories conference on 1st November 2016. Speakers will share their experience of Eircode implementation, and its benefits.[/font]

PDVerse

Google Maps Eircode integration (still in beta) works offline, no mobile credit or coverage required. You need to create two different offline areas to cover all of Ireland but they work seamlessly for address/eircode look-up and routing. Maps are then updated over Wifi, which is considerably more often than I used to get around to with the hassle of a stand-alone Sat-Nav device that I had to connect to a PC.

Personally I use a MagicMount magnetic phone mount, works a treat compared to other mounts I've managed to break trying to mount the phone in a hurry.

P.S. No, the addition of Eircode hasn't increased the offline size by 2Gb. Total size for the two offline areas including Eircodes is 552Mb.

PDVerse

Deedsie wrote: »

Trying to add my Eircode on Motortax.ie and I keep getting an error message. Anyone else having this problem?

Reply from motortax.ie

"Dear Sir,

If the Eircode is not accepted by the on-line system, it has not updated to our system from Eircom, this office cannot force it through. Just enter the address minus the eircode."

Not sure what Eircom have to do with it.

Might be a validation issue (sorry can't check the page). They may only accept all upper case, no space and make sure you use the number 0 instead of the letter O.

GreenFolder2

So far, where it is accepted, it seems to work fine.

I have had a few minor issues with UK sites getting weird about non-UK post codes, but I don't think they can accept any foreign postcodes at all as someone's just designed bad webpage that doesn't switch to free-text when you select a country other than the UK.

NikoTopps

Just noticed on my ESB bill they've added an eircode onto it and it's the wrong one!

For example let's say my address is this:
Unit 1a,
First floor,
Apartment X,
Boardstown,
County

Well they've given me the eircode for:
Unit 1a,
First floor,
Apartment Y,
Boardstown,
County

So it seems someone within the ESB tried to add an eircode of their own accord and of course, failed!

sondagefaux

Human makes mistake =/= system has failed.
Suggestion: contact them with your correct Eircode.

NikoTopps

sondagefaux wrote: »

Human makes mistake =/= system has failed.
Suggestion: contact them with your correct Eircode.

It was a hardly a critique of the eircode system moreso an observation.

Sam Russell

NikoTopps wrote: »

It was a hardly a critique of the eircode system moreso an observation.

No, it is a system feature that such a mistake can be made, that is not good - is it?

If the code was not random, then such a mistake would be less likely. That is a poor system.

If my postcade was D04 ABCD, and it is expected my neighbours was D04 ABCE then such a mistake is obvious. If my postcode is D04 AT6J, and my neighbours is D04 P7MK, how is anyone going to spot that either one or both are wrong? It is the random nature of the code that gives rise to such inability to check if they are correct or not.

If you get the right postcode, it might save costs, but get it wrong, and savings go out the window.

PDVerse

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, it is a system feature that such a mistake can be made, that is not good - is it?

If the code was not random, then such a mistake would be less likely. That is a poor system.

If my postcade was D04 ABCD, and it is expected my neighbours was D04 ABCE then such a mistake is obvious. If my postcode is D04 AT6J, and my neighbours is D04 P7MK, how is anyone going to spot that either one or both are wrong? It is the random nature of the code that gives rise to such inability to check if they are correct or not.

If you get the right postcode, it might save costs, but get it wrong, and savings go out the window.

No, you're completely wrong. Someone took an address and looked up and found the wrong address, which gave them the wrong Eircode to add. If Eircodes were assigned as you suggested it wouldn't make any difference.

You're confusing looking up an address and looking up an Eircode. Thankfully the Eircode design isn't as you would like, therefore if you enter a slightly incorrect Eircode it will display a completely different address to the one you were expecting, allowing you to notice the error immediately. If it showed a similar address then chances are you wouldn't notice the mistake. This is a feature of the design that facilitates verification, the complete opposite of the design flaw you have described it as.

Impetus

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

I'm having a problem with deliveries since the Eircodes were introduced.

I added the Eircode to my address instead of "Dublin 7" since the code starts "D07" and I've been waited nearly 4 weeks for something that should've been here in 4 days!

The order was in 4 identical boxes with the same exact address on each in the same position on each box.

Box #1 arrived in 4 days; box #2 arrived the following day but box #3 took THREE WEEKS to arrive and when it did, it had
"IMPORTANT : Delay caused by incorrect postal address" labels all over it -- one would've sufficed.

The final box has still not arrived.

I contacted An Post via their website on Wednesday last but I have not yet received a response.

My address is in the format :

XXX Road Name
Dublin
D07 XXXX

--- Previously it would've been always :

XXX Road Name
Dublin 7

An Post has a serious problem implementing eircode. I have a PO Box and if somebody uses the po box number, eircode and town, the mail often arrives with hand-written additions. ie written by somebody working for An Post.

There is only po box centre for D04 or T12 etc and within those buildings there is only one po box 1234. ie the first three characters define where the po box is in machine sorting terms. I have po boxes and street addresses in other countries in Europe and all the address needs is the po box number (not even this is required in Switzerland), postcode and town name. In Switzerland you just need name of person, four digit postcode and town name - because po boxes in any Swiss town have their own postocde - ie one postcode represents all po boxes in a postal district.

In Ireland each apartment, and anything else has its own eircode. but po boxes have no eircode - ie you can use the eircode of the An Post delivery office if you are enthusiastic, as An Post have advised.

The entire system is dumb, does not comply with European address formats, and while one hates to say this and it smells of low IQ and other things. Inability to organize and communicate systems. The eircode is at the bottom end of the the third world and lives in northern Europe on an island called Ireland.

Having said that, there is a new book Weapons of Math Destruction - big data threatens democracy. A 4 digit postcode is not big data. But A99 ABCD pointing to your home or other location is. The entity behind eircode is engaged in weapons of mass destruction of privacy for several governments....

https://www.amazon.fr/Weapons-Math-Destruction-Increases-Inequality/dp/0451497333/

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

In Ireland each apartment, and anything else has its own eircode. but po boxes have no eircode - ie you can use the eircode of the An Post delivery office if you are enthusiastic, as An Post have advised.

So... PO boxes have no Eircode, apart from the Eircode of the DSU where they are located. Which is a bit like saying that the mailbox on the pillar outside my house has no Eircode, but if I was feeling really enthusiastic I could use the Eircode of my house instead.

The entire system is dumb, does not comply with European address formats...

Does the UK's?

...and while one hates to say this and it smells of low IQ and other things.

Yeah, I'd say it caused you physical pain to criticise Eircodes alright.

There's something breathtakingly arrogant about claiming that something that's different from how you personally would have designed it implies a low IQ on the part of the people who did.

sondagefaux

What European address formats?

Here's a French address:
Aromaroc
ZA Bellevue
56700 Merlevenez

Source: http://aromaroc.fr/

How is that format (Small Business Name, Business Park, Postal Code, Town) radically different from the format that would be used in Ireland (Small Business Name, Business Park, Town, Postal Code)?

Here's an exhaustive guide to address formats around the world, including the different address formats used in different European countries:

http://www.columbia.edu/~fdc/postal/

Spanish address formats are notably different:

[font=Lato, sans-serif]The correct Spanish address format is:[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif][font=Lato, sans-serif]Type of street Street name building number floor number door number[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]Postal code city[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]province (optional, especially if the address is in a big city)[/font][/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]Example Spanish address[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]C/ Santa Maria 45, 3 , 2
28012 Madrid[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]The 3 means tercer[font=Lato, sans-serif]o[/font] (tercer piso) or third floor.
The 2 means segunda puert[font=Lato, sans-serif]a[/font] or second door.[/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]Speaking this address out loud you would say Calle Santa Marie cuarenta y cinco tercero, segunda .[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]Source: http://www.spanishexamples.com/spanish-reference-resource/example-spanish-address/[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]It's breathtakingly arrogant to assume that every European country apart from Ireland has the same address format or that somehow changing Ireland's address format to a more 'logical' one (without even explaining what a so-called 'logical' address format is) would make it easier to find addresses. [/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]How would changing the address format make it easier to find an address in a place you've never even heard of let alone been to?[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]Does knowing that an address is at 110a Alterweg, 12345 Musterdorf make it easier to find when you've never heard of Musterdorf, never been to Musterdorf and don't know where Musterdorf is? [/font]
[font=Lato, sans-serif]Can someone please explain to me how to get to Musterdorf from Dublin by road solely from the 'logical' address format without looking up a map? [/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]Can someone please let us know, using referenced sources (such as suppliers of road signs etc) how much it would cost to add signs with road names (and how the names of these roads would be allocated) to every single road in rural Ireland would cost to the nearest 10 million? [/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]Finally, very much OT, today a conference is being held on the implementation of Eircodes in Ireland:[/font]

Conference Programme:

8:30 Registration and Light Breakfast

9:00 Session 1

John Tuohy, Nightline Group: Nightline Delivers Innovation with Eircodes
Feargal O Neill, Gamma: Eircodes in Insurance - The Power of Precision
David Nagle, Microsoft: Digital Transformation

10:30 Session 2

Jon Hawkins, Waterford City & County Council: Locate the Case: Using Autoaddress and Eircodes in Dynamics CRM
Paul Spring, Student Universal Support Ireland: Hitting the Objective Targets with Eircodes 2 Practical Applications
William Kennedy, Bonkers Money Ltd: How Ireland s Favourite Price Comparison Website Fell in Love with Autoaddress

11:40 Session 3

Caoimhin Blake, Autoaddress: How to Get the Best out of Autoaddress
Liam Duggan, Eircode: Eircode - The State of the Nation Usage Update
Denis Naughten, T.D., Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources: Closing Address

https://www.eventbrite.ie/e/eircode-success-stories-a-half-day-conference-tickets-27598046500

GJG

Sam Russell wrote: »

NikoTopps wrote: »

It was a hardly a critique of the eircode system moreso an observation.

No, it is a system feature that such a mistake can be made, that is not good - is it?

If the code was not random, then such a mistake would be less likely. That is a poor system.

If my postcade was D04 ABCD, and it is expected my neighbours was D04 ABCE then such a mistake is obvious. If my postcode is D04 AT6J, and my neighbours is D04 P7MK, how is anyone going to spot that either one or both are wrong? It is the random nature of the code that gives rise to such inability to check if they are correct or not.

If you get the right postcode, it might save costs, but get it wrong, and savings go out the window.

You are precisely incorrect with this.

Let's leave aside the impossibility of keeping a system sequential (and dealing with the inevitable confusion caused by a partially sequential system).

Stressed communications are prone to error, and stark differences are important to avoid this. If your address was only one or two characters different to your neighbour, (remember that 40 per cent of people have an identical address to their neighbours, and most of the rest have only a single character difference). then the potential for undetected error is very high. You can never prevent all errors, the point is to make sure that errors are evident.

999 operators are trained to then ask first for the code, then for the address, even though they can see it on their screen once they enter the code. If the code is wrongly communicated, redundancy means a 99 per cent chance that it will be immediately evident, and the operator can ask for clarification. But if you give an incorrect Eircode that, by chance, is the correct Eircode for somewhere else, that will be instantly evident when you state your address.

This happens because, contrary to you umpteenth restatement of the false claim that Eircode is random, it isn't. It is designed to make sure that no two addresses which are identical or even similar (even if they aren't physically close) have even remotely similar Eircodes.

Under your suggested system, a small communication error could give a nearly-correct code, which resolved to an address, say 100m away, around a corner.

byrnefm

oscarBravo wrote: »

So... PO boxes have no Eircode, apart from the Eircode of the DSU where they are located. Which is a bit like saying that the mailbox on the pillar outside my house has no Eircode, but if I was feeling really enthusiastic I could use the Eircode of my house instead.

I believe he may be right on the An Post note- I had a printed reply envelope for An Post, from An Post, to a PO Box number - I think it was for a Savings Cert form - which also included the Eircode D01 F5P2 in the same address with the PO Box.

If an Apartment can have an Eircode to help with addressing.. why not PO Boxes, to aid with address verification?

oscarBravo

byrnefm wrote: »

If an Apartment can have an Eircode to help with addressing.. why not PO Boxes, to aid with address verification?

I don't know. Maybe because of the sheer number of PO boxes there may be in a busy DSU?

I know that all the companies in the office building where my company is located share a single Eircode.

GreenFolder2

Surely you could just have a PO BOX like

PO BOX 2345
Cork T23 XXXX

If the first three chars roughly equate to a delivery area it's straight forward enough.
I'm not really seeing how this is an issue.

An Post aren't the only provider of PO BOX facilities either. So baking it into the system isn't really logical.

Biggest issue with implementation should be an ability to shorten addresses. It's a bit silly repeating info.

12 Main Street
Ballinea L11 X1Y1

Should be enough. It's more accurate than ANY European system.

I don't see any reason for keeping things so verbose. You should just need Street or top couple of lines of rural / bonkers urban address to instruct the delivery person and eircode should be sorting to the route.

Once it's phased in fully we should be able to shorten addresses.

clewbays

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Surely you could just have a PO BOX like
PO BOX 2345
Cork T23 XXXX

The Eircode files are limited to entries in GeoDirectory and that does not include post boxes. Similarly a new building will only get into ECAD/ECAF after it has been added to GeoDirectory.

antoinolachtnai

Well, for me, in Dublin 2, a house that has a similar eircode (one digit different) is just around the corner, maybe 200m away as the crow flies.

There are plenty of these. Another example (not my house) is D02 C656 and D02 C653.

There are similar-ish things in rural areas. Just from a quick look H12 PK30 and H12 PK03 are both in issue and are not a terribly long distance from each other. H12 PK30, H12 PK31, H12 PK37 and H12 PK38 are all in issue. Perhaps there is a meanness about letter-use in the Cavan area? (That was unfair.)

In a rural setting, there is no quality assurance done (that I know of) to ensure that the correct eircode has been delivered to the correct house. There is a very high probability indeed that over 16000 houses have not received their eircode or have received the wrong one, or multiple eircodes.

What we have is a code that is highly granular, but that is not known to be particularly accurate.

This is easy to see from Google Maps. (Now that these codes are going to be publicly available, largely for free on Google Maps, it is hard to understand why Eircode doesn't just publish the file. )

sondagefaux

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsyeSJ3vyk

sondagefaux

The video above, plus what's in this post, are some examples of how Eircodes are being implemented in different ways to offer innovative services or improve existing services:

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Richard Cantwell [/font]
[ltr]ManAboutCouch[/ltr]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] 12h12 hours agoDublin City, Ireland[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Automatically detect if an address is an apartment and offer delivery options based on that. Innovative thinking from @NightlineIRL #eircode

[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]bonkers.ie [/font]
[ltr]bonkers_ie[/ltr]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] 8h8 hours agoIreland[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Really enjoyed speaking at today's #Eircode conference! Check out how we implemented @autoaddress here http://www.bonkers.ie/compare-tv-broadband-phone/?utm_campaign=broadband&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=28102016 @Eircode

Autoaddress [/font]
[ltr]autoaddress[/ltr]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] 10h10 hours ago
#Eircode key partnership with National Ambulance Service helping to send responders to emergencies faster.

[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Autoaddress [ltr]@autoaddress[/ltr] 11h11 hours ago[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Massive improvements for @bonkers_ie due to #Eircode

[/font]

sondagefaux

Some more examples of Eircode implementation:
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Autoaddress [ltr]@autoaddress[/ltr] 11h11 hours ago[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]#Eircode saved 2,666 hours for SUSI in the last 6 months.

Richard Cantwell [ltr]@ManAboutCouch[/ltr] 13h13 hours agoDublin City, Ireland
Feargal O'Neill from @Gamma_irl up now, talking about Eircode in the Insurance sector, lots of use cases.

[/font]

sondagefaux

And finally, how Waterford Council is implementing Eircodes:
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Autoaddress [/font]
[ltr]autoaddress[/ltr]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] 12h12 hours ago[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]John Hawkins from @WaterfordCounci explaining how #Eircode helps them efficiently deliver their services.

[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Autoaddress [ltr]@autoaddress[/ltr] 12h12 hours ago[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]8o-90% of cases reported to the council have a location component. #Eircode

[/font]

oscarBravo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, for me, in Dublin 2, a house that has a similar eircode (one digit different) is just around the corner, maybe 200m away as the crow flies.

There are plenty of these. Another example (not my house) is D02 C656 and D02 C653.

The first of those is 15 Castle Market; the second is 11-13 Suffolk Street.

There are similar-ish things in rural areas. Just from a quick look H12 PK30 and H12 PK03 are both in issue and are not a terribly long distance from each other.

When a customer contacts us and gives us their Eircode, we then ask them for their address to confirm. If someone told us their Eircode was H12PK30, and then told us their address was in Stradone, Co Cavan, it would be immediately obvious that the Eircode was wrong.

What we have is a code that is highly granular, but that is not known to be particularly accurate.

We've looked up over three thousand Eircodes so far. None have been inaccurate, that I'm aware of.

Now, that's anecdotal, and doesn't mean that there are no inaccuracies in the database. But I think it's fair to say that we have reason to have a great deal of faith in the system.

clewbays

sondagefaux wrote: »

And finally, how Waterford Council is implementing Eircodes:

... 8o-90% of cases reported to the council have a location component.

Are you saying 80% to 90% of cases reported included an Eircode or do you mean things like a street name, or a park name etc. because it is very hard to understand how even 80% of incidents would be directly linked to a postal address?

PDVerse

clewbays wrote: »

Are you saying 80% to 90% of cases reported included an Eircode or do you mean things like a street name, or a park name etc. because it is very hard to understand how even 80% of incidents would be directly linked to a postal address?

80% to 90% of cases reported are related to a location, a subset of those relate to houses or activities outside houses. The ECAD database contains spatial information (centre point and bounding boxes) for Streets, Townlands, etc. so this information about an address is useful to Waterford even if an actual Eircode isn't available or suitable.

GJG

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, for me, in Dublin 2, a house that has a similar eircode (one digit different) is just around the corner, maybe 200m away as the crow flies.

There are plenty of these. Another example (not my house) is D02 C656 and D02 C653.

There are similar-ish things in rural areas. Just from a quick look H12 PK30 and H12 PK03 are both in issue and are not a terribly long distance from each other. H12 PK30, H12 PK31, H12 PK37 and H12 PK38 are all in issue. Perhaps there is a meanness about letter-use in the Cavan area? (That was unfair.)

In a rural setting, there is no quality assurance done (that I know of) to ensure that the correct eircode has been delivered to the correct house. There is a very high probability indeed that over 16000 houses have not received their eircode or have received the wrong one, or multiple eircodes.

What we have is a code that is highly granular, but that is not known to be particularly accurate.

This is easy to see from Google Maps. (Now that these codes are going to be publicly available, largely for free on Google Maps, it is hard to understand why Eircode doesn't just publish the file. )

It's not clear what your issue is here, but the examples you give certainly back up my point. Sam was making the case for sequential codes, and I pointed out that even if it was possible (it's not) it would lead to properties with near-identical, or actually identical addresses having near-identical codes, and that would give obvious scope for confusion.

I pointed out that Eircodes are not assigned randomly; care is taken to make sure that addresses with similar Eircodes have starkly different addresses, and vice versa. The examples you give bear this out.

H12 PK30 SHANKILL, CAVAN

H12 PK03 KADONA TIRLAHODE, STRADONE, CO. CAVAN

H12 PK37 BRUSKEY, CARRIGAN, CO. CAVAN

H12 PK38 DRUMALT, ARVA, CO. CAVAN
and...

D02 C653 11-13 SUFFOLK STREET, DUBLIN 2

D02 C656 15 CASTLE MARKET, DUBLIN 2
There is a chance, however remote, that under stress, a caller would miscommunicate one of those codes to a 999 operator and the operator would understand an incorrect but valid code. In Sam's suggestion, that wrong code - giving the wrong location - could still resolve to the same address (say, Shankill, Cavan, that's the whole address) but still be hundreds of meters or even several kms away.

As Eircode is designed, similar Eircodes never refer to similar or identical addresses, as your examples illustrate, eliminating this risk.

There is a very high probability indeed that over 16000 houses have not received their eircode or have received the wrong one, or multiple eircodes.

Where are you getting the figure of 16000? Are you suggesting that almost one per cent of the letters were misdelivered? Don't you think that the people getting them would have been alerted by someone else's name on the envelope? And in any case, it is trivially easy to verify it on the Eircode map.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

You are precisely incorrect with this.

Let's leave aside the impossibility of keeping a system sequential (and dealing with the inevitable confusion caused by a partially sequential system).

Stressed communications are prone to error, and stark differences are important to avoid this. If your address was only one or two characters different to your neighbour, (remember that 40 per cent of people have an identical address to their neighbours, and most of the rest have only a single character difference). then the potential for undetected error is very high. You can never prevent all errors, the point is to make sure that errors are evident.

999 operators are trained to then ask first for the code, then for the address, even though they can see it on their screen once they enter the code. If the code is wrongly communicated, redundancy means a 99 per cent chance that it will be immediately evident, and the operator can ask for clarification. But if you give an incorrect Eircode that, by chance, is the correct Eircode for somewhere else, that will be instantly evident when you state your address.

This happens because, contrary to you umpteenth restatement of the false claim that Eircode is random, it isn't. It is designed to make sure that no two addresses which are identical or even similar (even if they aren't physically close) have even remotely similar Eircodes.

Under your suggested system, a small communication error could give a nearly-correct code, which resolved to an address, say 100m away, around a corner.

You are exaggerating the benefit of this "feature".

a) Would it really be such a problem if the emergency services arrive at a location 100 metres away?

b) The benefit only applies to non unique addresses and the generally accepted figure for these is 35%. It does not apply to urban areas where addresses are unique and eircodes can be used to validate addresses without error. Why impose the limited advantage of this feature on the 65% majority? Why not have them random in rural areas and sequential in urban areas?

clewbays

PDVerse wrote: »

80% to 90% of cases reported are related to a location, a subset of those relate to houses or activities outside houses. The ECAD database contains spatial information (centre point and bounding boxes) for Streets, Townlands, etc. so this information about an address is useful to Waterford even if an actual Eircode isn't available or suitable.

Thanks so presumably it was Waterford local authority staff who enhanced the original incident information with geocoded location coding. More of that type of getting on with it attitude is needed if usage levels are going to significantly increase.