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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

Mod note:

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It is likely that newly registered users who post in contravention of the above request will be a troll or a rereg, who will be removed along with their posts and replies to them.

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silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

Well I guess it is going to depend on where you get married and what the divorce law is in that country.

Its a bit silly railing about Robin Williams alimony payments if you live in Ireland as the same rules wouldnt apply.

If you dont want to be subject to massive alimony payments then dont get married/dont live in a country that enforces huge alimony/draw up pre-nups etc....

You also seem to think that "in marriage the man should have the financial sword of damocles hanging over them" when the truth is that in marriage the spouse who is the higher earner is the one most at risk - and that can be the wife just as easily.

I am not aware of more men avoiding marriage in the US because "the terms are unfair" but feel free to post to whatever studies have been done backing this claim.

but the thread is essentially based on stuff happening in the US, so it might not matter here but it might matter in the US or UK or that cultural trends might slip in here in a diluted way.

as for studies no idea, but thats what the mgtow lads are saying surely?

on a quick google someone is asking the question

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-more-and-more-men-are-avoiding-marriage

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eeguy

silverharp wrote: »

I'd imagine the courts made the choice in the end. are you suggesting that in marriage the man should have the financial sword of Damocles hanging over them? especially if they essentially brought all the assets into the marriage in the first place? I'd imagine if the terms are unfair then more men will avoid the contract, its that simple

That's why people get pre-nups.

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

I'd imagine the courts made the choice in the end. are you suggesting that in marriage the man should have the financial sword of Damocles hanging over them? especially if they essentially brought all the assets into the marriage in the first place? I'd imagine if the terms are unfair then more men will avoid the contract, its that simple

Well I guess it is going to depend on where you get married and what the divorce law is in that country.

Its a bit silly railing about Robin Williams alimony payments if you live in Ireland as the same rules wouldnt apply.

If you dont want to be subject to massive alimony payments then dont get married/dont live in a country that enforces huge alimony/draw up pre-nups etc....

You also seem to think that "in marriage the man should have the financial sword of damocles hanging over them" when the truth is that in marriage the spouse who is the higher earner is the one most at risk - and that can be the wife just as easily.

I am not aware of more men avoiding marriage in the US because "the terms are unfair" but feel free to post to whatever studies have been done backing this claim.

silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

From a choice he made. Same as I have costs associated with choices I make.

I'd imagine the courts made the choice in the end. are you suggesting that in marriage the man should have the financial sword of Damocles hanging over them? especially if they essentially brought all the assets into the marriage in the first place? I'd imagine if the terms are unfair then more men will avoid the contract, its that simple

Mr Arrior

I have to say that this thread has actually given me more confidence with how to approach women etc even though it may not have been the point of it ha

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

how can you compare the 2? the guy was a multi millionaire and should have been free to retire instead he had a settlement where he was forced to bring in millions more. its insane

From a choice he made. Same as I have costs associated with choices I make.

silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

Eh, Im forced to work and not happy about it either! But I need to, you know, pay the mortgage, bills, eat....that kind of thing.

how can you compare the 2? the guy was a multi millionaire and should have been free to retire instead he had a settlement where he was forced to bring in millions more. its insane

Rory28

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is where it gets difficult to believe that it's not all about women. The only part of 'society' they drop out of is dating and trying to meet women in nightclubs.

It's not exactly becoming a hermit.

No but from their own perspective it alleviates the pressure of trying and failing to get a partner. Its a short sighted approach but does help some of them at least.

silverharp

SarahMollie wrote: »

Seriously? Hollywood marriages have absolutely no bearing on the lives of ordinary men and women in Ireland. Also the pressures of fame and fortune are not something most of us have to worry about in the slightest. Why be so influenced by people you've never met and likely never will meet.

And as for John Cleese....he's currently on his 4th wife as far as I can see, the cost of divorce has done nothing to stop him continuing to marry. Also, his choice in wives are not reflective of the ordinary man. Its hardly surprising that marrying much younger women doesnt always work out.

sure but is has a bearing on men that have grown up in the US where divorce is around 50% and where 70% of divorce is initiated by women, they can just say even men at the top can be taken down by the family courts what hope have they?. Ireland doesn't have high divorce, I went into marriage that its a for life thing and I have no issues to date, however in the US for example I get the impression that either divorce is incentivised in these countries or a lot of women in the US are so out for themselves that the slightest slip up like unemployment and the man is kicked to the curb and sure plenty of men can objectively mess things up too
My wife is German and she was over there recently meeting up with some school friends that she hadn't met since, none of them were currently married or had kids, they were all variations of divorced or in an out of relationships, family life there seems to be breaking down.
Im not defending mgtow as such, it has no relevance for me or my son but movements like this are inevitable when there is more uncertianty

El_Duderino 09

py2006 wrote:

I don't get this, 'dropping out of society' thing. Surely that would entail living solitary in a forest, living off the earth and having no contact with anything of the modern world and other people.

psinno wrote:

Presumably it is defining being in society as having a girlfriend/wife or children.

This is where it gets difficult to believe that it's not all about women. The only part of 'society' they drop out of is dating and trying to meet women in nightclubs.

It's not exactly becoming a hermit.

Pat Mustard

Mod note re new user restrictions on posting now inserted in OP.

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

its factual to say though that he was forced to work and he wasn't happy about it .

Eh, Im forced to work and not happy about it either! But I need to, you know, pay the mortgage, bills, eat....that kind of thing.

SarahMollie

silverharp wrote: »

its factual to say though that he was forced to work and he wasn't happy about it . John Cleese is another actor that has had to up his workload to pay off a divorce settlement. It sends out a bad message about marriage and it gives ammunition for the argument that marriage is too risky in countries with high divorce.

Seriously? Hollywood marriages have absolutely no bearing on the lives of ordinary men and women in Ireland. Also the pressures of fame and fortune are not something most of us have to worry about in the slightest. Why be so influenced by people you've never met and likely never will meet.

And as for John Cleese....he's currently on his 4th wife as far as I can see, the cost of divorce has done nothing to stop him continuing to marry. Also, his choice in wives are not reflective of the ordinary man. Its hardly surprising that marrying much younger women doesnt always work out.

kunst nugget

silverharp wrote: »

its factual to say though that he was forced to work and he wasn't happy about it . John Cleese is another actor that has had to up his workload to pay off a divorce settlement. It sends out a bad message about marriage and it gives ammunition for the argument that marriage is too risky in countries with high divorce.

Leonard Cohen had to come out of retirement because his manager ripped him off and Sting got stung as well as Billy Joel, Elton John and a load of others. I'm going to start a new movement call MDTOT (Men doing their own taxes).

Carlos Orange

py2006 wrote: »

I don't get this, 'dropping out of society' thing. Surely that would entail living solitary in a forest, living off the earth and having no contact with anything of the modern world and other people.

Presumably it is defining being in society as having a girlfriend/wife or children.

py2006

I don't get this, 'dropping out of society' thing. Surely that would entail living solitary in a forest, living off the earth and having no contact with anything of the modern world and other people.

EDIT: Which actually sounds kind of appealing...

silverharp

SarahMollie wrote: »

I assume the implication is that he killed himself due to his financial situation post divorce.

However, he had remarried so he can't have been that down on women following his divorce, and furthermore it was revealed that he was suffering from a disease called Lewy Body Dementia which was the more likely cause for his suicide according to his widow.

its factual to say though that he was forced to work and he wasn't happy about it . John Cleese is another actor that has had to up his workload to pay off a divorce settlement. It sends out a bad message about marriage and it gives ammunition for the argument that marriage is too risky in countries with high divorce.

SarahMollie

Effects wrote: »

What did they do to him?

I assume the implication is that he killed himself due to his financial situation post divorce.

However, he had remarried so he can't have been that down on women following his divorce, and furthermore it was revealed that he was suffering from a disease called Lewy Body Dementia which was the more likely cause for his suicide according to his widow.

Effects

maregal wrote: »

Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

What did they do to him?

Wibbs

mzungu wrote: »

So, this idea that the (so called) alpha male is the all encompassing personification of everything that should be ultra masculine and in control, is all based on some very terrible PUA understanding of the now outdated 1970s theory of what alpha actually means for wolf packs.

Thank you. Exactly. It's pure Bro Science(™). IMH it also seems to appeal more to a section of the culturally American mind. Certain sections of the culture took Nietzsche to their hearts(if not their minds). That fascism didn't take a bigger hold there was as much to do with that other American trend of rugged individualism. A culture like that with some of the least social protections in the west is more likely to see dog eat dog, alpha and beta as a thing. It also gives us that totally nuts "liberal/social justice" backlash to all that. Add in the interwebs and marketing and the extremes come to the fore and spread.

pwurple wrote: »

Is the MGTOW a replacement for the monks / nuns and other broken structures of old?

Could be alright and certainly a demographic of men and women with no interest in dating and mating had avenues to explore as a group. I would suggest too that many of them may well have been gay folks who had no other real option but the cloister and monk cell. For poorer women taking up holy orders was also a good option for education and a job and even wider respect in the community.

pwurple

Is the MGTOW a replacement for the monks / nuns and other broken structures of old?

I think society needs those who don't procreate at much as it needs those who do. It's a fascinating aspect of human civilisation, and has contributed vastly to knowledge being retained through history and wars, instead of us constantly reinventing the wheel. The main loss I see, is the loss of respect for structures like that... so those who may have feel inclined towards becoming a tibetan monk, (or the counterpart nuns) are ridiculed and pitied instead of honoured.

It's a pity the resultant emerging trend is currently selfishness and narcissism instead of building vast well-protected libraries and reservoirs of knowledge and learning, but maybe it will re-evolve after this period of transition into the post-religious era.

El_Duderino 09

maregal wrote:

What a lovely quote. Now you can frame it and hang it on your wall so you feel good about yourself. In the real world, male suicide rates are significantly higher than female as they fail to reach the impossibly high standards set by Irish women.

You went from calling John Candy a fat slob to complaining about the impossibly high standards set by women. Is it possible that it's you who has the unrealistic standards?

El_Duderino 09

maregal wrote:

A guy at work was telling us about a date he went on with a girl recently and how he paid for dinner. I laughed at him for being a sucker. ... No need for him to buy dinner. She has plenty of willing betas to do that.

Sounds like he was used to stroke her ego. Similar to when a someone pretends to be interested n a relationship and all they want is a 'pump and dump'. It happens, unfortunately.

maregal wrote:

You can't deny nature. The beta provides the girl with material goods while the alpha satisfies her sexually and passes on his genes.

That's a really unfortunate way to look at life. If a fella goes around thinking in those terms, how does he feel around men he considers alphas? No wonder these fellas don't have decent jobs if they go around kowtowing to the alphas all around them.

Ironically monogram is designed to balance that equation -the very thing the MGTOW lads are shunning.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

Posts by serial rereg and replies deleted.

eeguy

Mister Vain wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how guys are so open about that too. Even on telly, whenever those programmes about prostitution are on, you'll see guys admitting to using escorts for the exact same reason. They're sick of approaching women in bars and clubs.

I would have thought prostitution played well in the MGTOW camp.

No rejection, guaranteed to get laid and mostly cheaper than a night out clubbing.

Mister Vain

Rory28 wrote: »

One of them is off asking women out full stop. He uses escort sites and seems happy as a result.

I'm always amazed at how guys are so open about that too. Even on telly, whenever those programmes about prostitution are on, you'll see guys admitting to using escorts for the exact same reason. They're sick of approaching women in bars and clubs.

Mr Arrior

My age group would be early 20's and I was wondering if Coriander905 would ur age group be similar and if not would you agree that your methods may not be as effective with this age? Genuinely asking.

py2006

PucaMama wrote: »

The same goes for men. Men have to have more than looks. A fact hard to grasp by those who believe that women all want the same thing from men.

In fairness to him, a lot of women think that being female is enough for them to be wanted. Without personalty and decency forget it.

But I am talking about the younger club going girls/guys. I never liked that situation. Unless you have it in the looks department (as far as they are concerned) forget it.

eeguy

Mr Arrior wrote: »

It all sounds great but I struggle to find things to say being the biggest problem. I already am of the mindset of getting to know them. If ya struggle early they won't stick around long.

That's a confidence thing.
You have plenty to say, it's just not at the forefront of your head when you need it.

Don't worry about saying stupid stuff. Just make a joke out if when you realise you said something stupid

Personally, I'm not interesting, but I do interesting things to keep myself occupied at the weekends. Activities and holidays and stuff, so I just talk about that.