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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

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PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

This "just be yourself" meme really needs to die along with the "girls go for funny guys" one.
John Candy is one of my favourite comedians of all time. But would he have gotten any action in a nightclub? No, cos he was a fat slob.

You are an incredibly negative person. Stop insulting people who don't meet your standards in appearance.

eviltwin

maregal wrote: »

This "just be yourself" meme really needs to die along with the "girls go for funny guys" one.
John Candy is one of my favourite comedians of all time. But would he have gotten any action in a nightclub? No, cos he was a fat slob.

And yet there are many overweight men who are in relationships. So much for that theory.....

maregal

PucaMama wrote: »

You are an incredibly negative person. Stop insulting people who don't meet your standards in appearance.

Pardon me, did I not sugar coat it enough for you? Can we please have an honest discussion without all the fake niceties BS. The vast majority of people do not find overweight people attractive. John Candy was a funny guy - I'd love to a have a pint and a laugh with him. Would girls want to have sex with him? More than likely no.

PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

Pardon me, did I not sugar coat it enough for you? Can we please have an honest discussion without all the fake niceties BS. The vast majority of people do not find overweight people attractive. John Candy was a funny guy - I'd love to a have a pint and a laugh with him. Would girls want to have sex with him? More than likely no.

No there's no need to sugarcoat just like there's no need for you to be going on like this. Stop insulting people who are overweight. It's not your place. It's none of you business. You do realise there's more to life than sex?

maregal

There you have it lads. You can all crawl out of your basements now and get the most beautiful women in the world. We have found the solution to all your problems.

PucaMama

Vanity and being materialistic are the most unattractive qualities in a person

mzungu

maregal wrote: »

A guy at work was telling us about a date he went on with a girl recently and how he paid for dinner. I laughed at him for being a sucker. All because society tells him to pay due to some outdated idea of chivalry At the end of the night, he walked her home to her place, leaned in for the kiss but only got a hug. Absolute cringefest. She didn't reply to any of his calls or messages for a week afterwards so he did some digging. Turns out she already has a "friend with benefits" who visits her home when she gets in the mood. No need for him to buy dinner. She has plenty of willing betas to do that.

You can't deny nature. The beta provides the girl with material goods while the alpha satisfies her sexually and passes on his genes.

Except it is not nature. Dr David Mech, the scientist who originally coined the phrases "Alpha" and "Beta" for wolves in the 1970s has stated that the view of the alpha he took back then was incorrect, mainly because there are usually two alphas in the pack, the male and female. In fact, the terminology these days just calls them "parents" and the terms "alpha" and "beta" have been consigned to the dustbin.

This is a section from his website:

Dr David Mech wrote:

Outmoded notion of the alpha wolf

The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species," written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book's info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female." In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the "dominant breeder" can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a "subordinate breeder."

Link: http://www.davemech.org/news.html

Video for you here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

Therefore, despite the common misconception of the (so called) alpha male being the head honcho (usually propagated within the manosphere), he does NOT have his pick of the lady-wolves , he is the Dad in the pack, that is his role. In fact, researchers have observed individualised relationships between wolves, one year the alpha female will mate with the alpha male, but the next year she then mates with his brother. So he does not have control over breeding, far from it.

It is also accepted that the (so called) alpha male has NO dominance over the (so called) alpha female. In fact, it is quite the opposite as it is he who often submits to her when an altercation between them occurs.

So, this idea that the (so called) alpha male is the all encompassing personification of everything that should be ultra masculine and in control, is all based on some very terrible PUA understanding of the now outdated 1970s theory of what alpha actually means for wolf packs.

maregal

PucaMama wrote: »

Vanity and being materialistic are the most unattractive qualities in a person

What a lovely quote. Now you can frame it and hang it on your wall so you feel good about yourself. In the real world, male suicide rates are significantly higher than female as they fail to reach the impossibly high standards set by Irish women.

PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

What a lovely quote. Now you can frame it and hang it on your wall so you feel good about yourself. In the real world, male suicide rates are significantly higher than female as they fail to reach the impossibly high standards set by Irish women.

You are taking the piss now. Men are committing suicide for many reasons. None of which are the fault of Irish women. How would you feel if I blamed every dead Irish woman in Irish men.

eeguy

maregal wrote: »

Pardon me, did I not sugar coat it enough for you? Can we please have an honest discussion without all the fake niceties BS. The vast majority of people do not find overweight people attractive. John Candy was a funny guy - I'd love to a have a pint and a laugh with him. Would girls want to have sex with him? More than likely no.

Why would John Candy be out looking for the ride in a nightclub?
He had a wife for 15 years till he died.
Also I'm sure he'd have no trouble getting a beautiful 35-45 year old woman.

How did Michael Douglas get Catherine Zeta jones? Not for the money.
The one who plays Bones is married to the guy who plays Rickety Cricket in Always Sunny.

I can go on...

intheclouds

maregal wrote: »

What a lovely quote. Now you can frame it and hang it on your wall so you feel good about yourself. In the real world, male suicide rates are significantly higher than female as they fail to reach the impossibly high standards set by Irish women.

Irish women are responsible for male suicides now?

All male suicides or just Irish ones?

It's grand and easy just blaming someone else on everything. Lazy. Ignorant. Incorrect. Immature. But easy.

PucaMama

intheclouds wrote: »

Irish women are responsible for male suicides now?

All male suicides or just Irish ones?

It's grand and easy just blaming someone else on everything. Lazy. Ignorant. Incorrect. Immature. But easy.

And hurtful when you know an Irish man (or men) who have committed suicide. What a ****ty thing to say.

Blacktie.

Everyone wants to be the victim. MGOTW. SJW. Tumbler feminists. All just blaming each other.

maregal

PucaMama wrote: »

And hurtful when you know an Irish man (or men) who have committed suicide. What a ****ty thing to say.

Amazingly you've found a way to make male suicide all about you. Well done.

eviltwin

maregal wrote: »

What a lovely quote. Now you can frame it and hang it on your wall so you feel good about yourself. In the real world, male suicide rates are significantly higher than female as they fail to reach the impossibly high standards set by Irish women.

What are you on about? I know a lot of men, not one is an alpha and yet most are in long term relationships. What you are describing is completely removed from reality.

Does this opinion of women extend to your mother, sisters?

intheclouds

PucaMama wrote: »

And hurtful when you know an Irish man (or men) who have committed suicide. What a ****ty thing to say.

It's coming from someone who's approach to life is "The wimmins are mean and don't like me so I hate the wimmins".

Frankly, not really an approach that shows any kind of intelligent thought or self reflection. There's one born every minute as the saying goes.

intheclouds

maregal wrote: »

Amazingly you've found a way to make male suicide all about you. Well done.

Better than making it all about the mean wimmins.

PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

Amazingly you've found a way to make male suicide all about you. Well done.

Come back to me when you lose someone to suicide then hear how it's your fault because of your gender. Your ridiculous complex about women is getting out of control.

eviltwin

maregal wrote: »

Amazingly you've found a way to make male suicide all about you. Well done.

Engage your brain a little and you'll realise that any suicide affects a range of people not just the deceased.

Eric Cartman

Blacktie. wrote: »

Everyone wants to be the victim. MGOTW. SJW. Tumbler feminists. All just blaming each other.

they're all just knee-jerk reaction groups that choose to blame loads of people for their own internal failings.

the problem with the feminist movement is that it does nothing about building up the self esteem of the women that follow it, it just lets them play the victim and tells them its all mens fault that they haven't gone anywhere in life / aren't considering themselves 'attractive' etc…

the PUA movement tries to build mens confidence on a false foundation , exacerbating the absurd notion that being successful with women is how you measure yourself against everything, rather than natural confidence its all a sham built on sand leaving lads still self loathing on the inside , blaming women for all their problems while presenting a crappy asshole exterior and playing a massive numbers game to pull to prove themselves.

the MGTOW movement unlike the PUA movement yet very like feminism just buys into the idea that 'all women are awful' and tells them to give up and swill around in their bath of low self esteem and no confidence. Similar to feminism its a dangerous cycle as the more you get into it, the harder it is to see that not all women are awful and you'll just end up writing off half the planet before you start.

anyone into any of this craic, do yourself a favour , look in the mirror and say "it's my fault i'm unhappy" then work on improving yourself, now by that I don't mean looks, plastic surgery etc…. when you have confidence that stuff will matter less, if you don't like your weight, join a gym, if you hate your job, take a course, up skill, apply for a new job.

and before you reply 'but that won't work wahhhh' , just god damn try , you'd be surprised how often things work out when you actually want them to. Life is about building yourself as a person, build how you want and try achieve, even the slightest success will build confidence and eventually the money, women, cars, men, whatever you want will become more achievable.

Billy86

maregal wrote: »

This "just be yourself" meme really needs to die along with the "girls go for funny guys" one.
John Candy is one of my favourite comedians of all time. But would he have gotten any action in a nightclub? No, cos he was a fat slob.

Yet if I brought up say darts player Kim Huybruchts girlfriend, or comedian Johnny Vegas' wife (both below) you'd be the very first to whinge and moan that "it's all about the money".

I've already brought up my dramatically improved luck with women during my 20s with no real change to my looks or income and you chose to completely ignore it because it didn't Molly coddle your deeply flawed and frankly unhealthy worldview, I believe there might be a new Roosh V article out there from the last few days for you to lap up if that's what you're after.

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tpN4XjWcesanDUKxdfK1n-MbwXpaSr-KYXSurUN161P8QfvVAWPnYwIcVnNX5H1CmDXX7bNUUrnZ=w1600-h1200-no

Billy86

maregal wrote: »

Amazingly you've found a way to make male suicide all about you. Well done.

No, that was you. Male suicides are simply because all women are such big meanies.

You were complaining about people having a go earlier, but you're happy to have a go at anyone and everyone yourself. Grow up. Don't "be a man" - just an adult, or something resembling it. The world owes you nothing, it owes men nothing and it owes women nothing, and until you learn to live either this rather than expecting to be spoon fed and hugged and kissed and told how lovely and wonderful you are just for being alive and would you like two sugars or three in your coffee tomorrow morning that the world will surely bring to you to make sure you're all happy with life, it's going to give you nothing. Your frustrations are a product of your own negative, self pitying outlook that you've done nothing but reaffirm through this entire thread.

You want coffee? Get the f*ck up and make it yourself.

jocmilt

Goodshape wrote: »

it's a vastly male dominated society. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise

Of course it's a male dominated society. That's because men are bigger, stronger, faster and generally better at almost everything even traditional female jobs. The only thing we can't do is have a baby and if we could you know we would do that better too

The Black Oil

LLMMLL wrote: »

Someone mentioned rape culture and consent classes in university earlier. There are no consent classes in irish universities. If men are dropping out of society because of imaginary classes then they've a lot of issues.

Most people I know haven't even heard of rape culture. The issue here is people searching for articles on rape culture so they can get angry about it. Just be like everyone else and ignore it.

It's difficult to ignore when it's used as part of the narrative sell by the more bonkers end of feminism. OK, so maybe some people get annoyed because they browse for it. However, most of the irritation, I suspect, is that click bait stuff is shaping mainstream discourse and if we're not careful this nonsense will end up informing public policy and what's taught in schools.

PucaMama

Coriander905 wrote: »

I don't believe all women want me, but the fact of the matter is if a woman wants to get into my trousers she needs to be more than a pretty face, there has to be something about her. These are just facts, if that makes me arrogant then so be it.

The same goes for men. Men have to have more than looks. A fact hard to grasp by those who believe that women all want the same thing from men.

eeguy

Mr Arrior wrote: »

It all sounds great but I struggle to find things to say being the biggest problem. I already am of the mindset of getting to know them. If ya struggle early they won't stick around long.

That's a confidence thing.
You have plenty to say, it's just not at the forefront of your head when you need it.

Don't worry about saying stupid stuff. Just make a joke out if when you realise you said something stupid

Personally, I'm not interesting, but I do interesting things to keep myself occupied at the weekends. Activities and holidays and stuff, so I just talk about that.

py2006

PucaMama wrote: »

The same goes for men. Men have to have more than looks. A fact hard to grasp by those who believe that women all want the same thing from men.

In fairness to him, a lot of women think that being female is enough for them to be wanted. Without personalty and decency forget it.

But I am talking about the younger club going girls/guys. I never liked that situation. Unless you have it in the looks department (as far as they are concerned) forget it.

Mr Arrior

My age group would be early 20's and I was wondering if Coriander905 would ur age group be similar and if not would you agree that your methods may not be as effective with this age? Genuinely asking.

Mister Vain

Rory28 wrote: »

One of them is off asking women out full stop. He uses escort sites and seems happy as a result.

I'm always amazed at how guys are so open about that too. Even on telly, whenever those programmes about prostitution are on, you'll see guys admitting to using escorts for the exact same reason. They're sick of approaching women in bars and clubs.

eeguy

Mister Vain wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how guys are so open about that too. Even on telly, whenever those programmes about prostitution are on, you'll see guys admitting to using escorts for the exact same reason. They're sick of approaching women in bars and clubs.

I would have thought prostitution played well in the MGTOW camp.

No rejection, guaranteed to get laid and mostly cheaper than a night out clubbing.