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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

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seenitall

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is this true? I've hung around with a lot of eastern European lads and visited it a bunch and there definitely seems to be a bit of resentment towards women in the dating scene particularly because women tend to take a materialistic outlook, on the flipside you read boards and you have Irish guys talking about how they like EE women because they are more traditional.

On the Latin/romance countries yeah there is probably a lot more sober approaching but according to my female friends from those regions the Anglo-sphere has far far less harassment and toleration for harassment.

In relation to the sober approaching thing, yeah it's not the Irish way but it seems hypocritical to complain about that while also reacting really negatively to aspects of PUA like day gaming etc
(And to be honest a lot of PUA is like a forced version of the Latin man "machismo" thing)

I dunno, RMD. In fairness Eastern Europe is vast and I don't know a lot about it, what I do know well is my little corner of it, and I can emphatically say materialistic is one thing that doesn't enter the equation there when talking about inter-gender relations, at least it wasn't during my formative years spent there. Communism was I think quite something for sapping everyone's ambition, materialistic or otherwise. So it did turn out to be a great equaliser, only in a sort of a perverse and mostly unhelpful manner (everyone with any personal enterprise or ambitions for wealth, either had to become a honcho in the CP, or had to head for the West, end of story). Maybe that's changed now.

As far as traditional roles, I don't agree with that either. Crèches were cheap, women worked outside of home in much greater proportions than they do in Ireland still, all these years later. I am not saying it is an amazing thing, though, most people were poor as church mice and there was only one type of yogurt to buy in the shop, if you get my meaning. Most consumer goods nonexistant or far out of reach. It is just funny how the two things you mentioned seem to be the very two things that I find were actually not issues with that life.

Yeah in fairness, when I was last in Spain on holiday, I did have a man proposition me in the street, out of nowhere, in a stone cold sober kind of way, so you may have a point with the Latino way. That kind of thing just doesn't happen here. (Or it hasn't to me.)

Here the potential harassers need their Dutch courage, methinks!

Edited to add: so maybe while men feel more free to make unwanted advances in some other countries than here, they also feel more free to make wanted ones, too. And as common sense tells us that there are far far greater numbers of nice and decent men in a society than there are of boorish pests, I would tentatively suggest that everyone still has it better overall in the first type.

RDM_83 again

Mainly thinking of Hungarians when I say that and to be fair there does seem to be a bit of gender gap in the looks department there which might play into it to (straight so can't say with any certainty but Hungarian women tend to be stunning while the men don't seem classically handsome). Also might be a bit of an age thing, somebody that's thirty will have grown up mainly with capitalism and rich German visitors.
Have you not seen the posts on here though lauding eastern european as more traditional though?
This being said I have sort of felt that the Irish are probably more similarly culturally to the polish and Baltic states than to southern English, Americans and Canadians despite the language difference.

In relation to your addition I can definitely see your point but isn't it very much the common trend of thinking that it doesn't matter that 90% of men are decent as the minority cause issues for a significant number of women?

I feel that maybe we highlight the obvious flaws in Ireland in relation to this while the truth is the vast majority of people get on grand, we still have a low divorce rate even after decades, we don't seem to have the cultural acceptance of mistresses/affairs that happens in southern europe.
Also the saying irish men aren't good at this sociak stuff is a bit weird considering that the stereotype (and all stereotypes have a grain of truth) is off irish lads abroad having much better luck with women while unless an Irish girl has some distinct look like red hair the same doesn't seem to apply at all

seenitall

Yeah, could be an age related thing. Things are changing in EE, that's for sure, and some of it is sadly not for the better

but that's for a different thread.

Ireland has a lot going for it. This drinking to get drunk culture is a bit of a bug bear of mine, but it is still a great little country to live in!

Mr Arrior

Scrolling through Instagram and seeing so many beautiful women and some with average looking guys. One was a model. Like if I was going out with some of them then it would genuinely feel like I won the lotto. Now I wouldn't drop out of society as I still want a woman to share my life with but **** it is so hard when ur trying for so long and literally have nothing to show for it. Like ATM, I feel like absolute **** after seeing those pics. It may not be right or healthy but it's how I feel.

mzungu

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Scrolling through Instagram and seeing so many beautiful women and some with average looking guys. One was a model. Like if I was going out with some of them then it would genuinely feel like I won the lotto. Now I wouldn't drop out of society as I still want a woman to share my life with but **** it is so hard when ur trying for so long and literally have nothing to show for it. Like ATM, I feel like absolute **** after seeing those pics. It may not be right or healthy but it's how I feel.

It's probably easier said than done, but I would suggest using social media less as it can exacerbate any existing negative thoughts. Studies show that even when users are viewing their own friends feed, they tend to believe they have a better life than they do, but when they view the feeds of strangers, a higher number of people report feeling that others (strangers basically) were living a better life than they were (Chou & Edge 2012 - Link: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2011.0324).

Same goes for Instagram (in cases, even more so) where everything is image based, therefore every single shot is made to be picture perfect to portray the perfect lifestyle. It is all very contrived. This can have a negative effect on self-esteem if you are already feeling a bit down in the dumps, and incidentally if you have high self-esteem it can in cases reenforce that (Paramboukis et al. 2016). Link: http://file.scirp.org/pdf/SN_2016042814584244.pdf

Mr Arrior

Very true. Overuse if social media while not having a lot going on in your life, is not good.

PucaMama

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Scrolling through Instagram and seeing so many beautiful women and some with average looking guys. One was a model. Like if I was going out with some of them then it would genuinely feel like I won the lotto. Now I wouldn't drop out of society as I still want a woman to share my life with but **** it is so hard when ur trying for so long and literally have nothing to show for it. Like ATM, I feel like absolute **** after seeing those pics. It may not be right or healthy but it's how I feel.

they might look happy in those pics but who knows whats going on behind closed doors.

the 2 of them could hate eachother.

Mr Arrior

PucaMama wrote:

they might look happy in those pics but who knows whats going on behind closed doors.

PucaMama wrote:

the 2 of them could hate eachother.

Could be but they could easily be very loved up, that's what my brain is swaying towards ha

PucaMama

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Could be but they could easily be very loved up, that's what my brain is swaying towards ha

I had to tell myself before to stop comparing other peoples relationships to mine, if you pay attention to other people's facebooks too much it looks like they are having the time of their lives, you forget they only show the good things.

professore

py2006 wrote: »

There is a reason for the dutch courage. I was never the guy to walk up to a strange girl with a chat up line or whatever. But I have observed it a zillion times and I feel sorry for the guys. They are nervous.

I've seen guys get treated like sh1t, insulted, referred to as a creep etc or at the very least a dirty look. Its like they take it as an insult that somebody that isn't their type tries to speak them.

I even recall a situation were a girl thought I was coming on to her but I wasn't. I was sitting at a table next to her and I saw her jacket fall of chair. I picked it up and said, "sorry you jacket was on the floor" and handed it to her. I got a dirty look and I heard her whisper, "creep" to her friends.

Now I know you will get the overly drunk annoying guys too but its a difficult situation for most guys.

This is true. There is definitely a subset of Irish women who are downright cruel and bitchy, more so than foreign women I have met. The type that think every guy is trying to hit on them and sexually assault them. I was at a party recently in a pub and a band were playing, and I was dancing after a few pints, just nicely merry, not in the least drunk. There were people passing so I moved to allow them pass. Out of nowhere a "lady" tapped me on the shoulder and said "do you want to sit on my lap altogether you asshole".

I was totally disgusted with her. I hadn't even seen she was there. All she had to do was politely ask me to move. A few encounters with this type of woman will make you very cautious as a guy.

professore

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Scrolling through Instagram and seeing so many beautiful women and some with average looking guys. One was a model. Like if I was going out with some of them then it would genuinely feel like I won the lotto

I'm 45 and I see for a good while now looks are HUGELY overrated. A good personality is far more important and attractive. I just look at a really good looking woman and think high maintenance, entitled, full of herself, gold digger. Also will have men hitting on her all the time. Can you handle that? Not always true by any means, but often the case.

Give me funny, kind, mentally stable and intelligent any day. There are extremes of looks that would matter to me but we are talking extremes.

rahmalec

My advice,

Try to find a sociable hobby. Something you're interested in that involves joining groups, etc. For example, mountaineering, music, circus stuff, volunteering in various ways, etc. Something that will get you out of the house and get meeting new people with similar interests.

Perhaps nothing will come of it but most relationships I've seen stem from a friend of a friend, or having met at "band camp" type of thing. I've never really seen serious relationships start by a hookup in a bar without previously knowing the person.

Just find something you like, go and meet other like-minded folks, don't worry about the hooking up bit. Make some new friends. Ye might end up heading out one night after a day out, some might bring some of their other friends that you don't know and something may happen.

Augme

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Scrolling through Instagram and seeing so many beautiful women and some with average looking guys. One was a model. Like if I was going out with some of them then it would genuinely feel like I won the lotto. Now I wouldn't drop out of society as I still want a woman to share my life with but **** it is so hard when ur trying for so long and literally have nothing to show for it. Like ATM, I feel like absolute **** after seeing those pics. It may not be right or healthy but it's how I feel.

Stop focusing so much on looks. It's a waste of time and also quite insulting to them. I'd have zero time for someone who was only dating me for my looks rather than my personality.

maregal

professore wrote: »

This is true. There is definitely a subset of Irish women who are downright cruel and bitchy, more so than foreign women I have met. The type that think every guy is trying to hit on them and sexually assault them.

I blame the single-sex school system for this. Mixed schools are becoming more common in Ireland but growing up boys and girls went to separate schools because of the Catholic church. Therefore the only time boys and girls socialized was at discos i.e. highly sexualized occasions. We never got to talk to girls in normal situations. They were distant exotic creatures that needed to be protected from boys. Girls become stuck up because of too many sexual advances from unwanted males at these discos and now we have the situation today where every male that chats to them wants to have sex with them, in their eyes. Why would you bother? I'll never get into a relationship but for the other guys out there, try your luck with a foreign girl who will appreciate you.

Mr Arrior

I'm not just going off looks though. I know a lot of women that are gorgeous and have fantastic personalities as well. I'm thinking of those types of women.

whaleofaday

maregal wrote: »

The women are then willing to settle with a beta, provided he has a good income, a flashy car and spacious house. She will begrudgingly partake in sex with the beta for the first year or two of marriage until the children have arrived. She will then divorce the beta, taking the house while collecting monthly child support payments in the process. She no longer needs the beta as she has a steady income. This is a tough pill to swallow but we've seen the same story play out countless times before.

This bears no resemblance to my experience of separation or that of several of my friends. I don't know any woman who has purposefully set out to money grab. Frankly, any woman would have to be pretty damn stupid to think that marrying someone and having kids with them was a fast track to riches. It's more likely that women with kids who choose to end marriage end up close to the poverty line. For most, divorce is more like a fairy tale gone horribly, painfully wrong than some kind of paranoid plot to bleed a poor unsuspecting man dry.

And what about men who walk out on their families? Their career is often intact and they have the freedom to live as they please whilst the woman is left raising the kids. I know of one man who did just that. Left his wife and 4 kids to manage without him. Where does that fit in with your theory?

I completely understand the desire to take time out of dating. I've done it myself for the past 6 years. Yep, 6 years! But I realised I was making poor choices, had never taken the time to get to know myself and my passions before embarking on a series of disastrous romances and desperately needed to learn how to relate to the world in a more self aware and healthy way.

But at no point did I decide all men are out to get me, or that my inability to form a successful relationship was anything but a failing of my own self. That would just be another way to hide from my own mistakes and then I would have learned nothing!

ETA: Oops! The thread's moved on a bit!

tomofson

This is my sort of thread me and a friend were only talking about something very similar tonight, another thing I notice when a female is murdered it is bigged up to be a crime against humanity of some sort by the media of course. Yet when a man is murdered in anyway under any circumstances its no big deal just another male on male murder. The female jail is also a lot cushier than the mans jail in fact I wouldn't even call it a prison, so female murderers get a better time in prison than male petty thieves.

Men are more creative by nature and contribute more to society yet are treated like second class citizens, I'm all for equality and it should be equal but this is not EQUALITY...

whaleofaday

tomofson wrote: »

This is my sort of thread me and a friend were only talking about something very similar tonight, another thing I notice when a female is murdered it is bigged up to be a crime against humanity of some sort by the media of course. Yet when a man is murdered in anyway under any circumstances its no big deal just another male on male murder. The female jail is also a lot cushier than the mans jail in fact I wouldn't even call it a prison, so female murderers get a better time in prison than male petty thieves.

Men are more creative by nature and contribute more to society yet are treated like second class citizens, I'm all for equality and it should be equal but this is not EQUALITY...

I just can't get my head around your thought process here. I've never seen any murder described as anything less than an atrocity, regardless of gender.

Can you explain what you mean about how womens' prisons are "cushier" than mens? Could it be to do with overcrowding or the simple fact that there are more males in the prison population than females? I'm genuinely curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that "men are more creative by nature and contribute more to society"...care to expand?

El_Duderino 09

Is MGTOW a way to describe all men who choose not to get involved in relationships or is it a subset of men who don't want relationships specifically reasons to do with how the dating/marriage game is rigged against men?

When did we stop using 'bachelor' to describe someone who didn't want to get married and all that jazz?

Also, are MGTOW lads dropping out of society altogether or just dropping out of the romantic relationships side of society?

El_Duderino 09

Icemancometh wrote:

How often do you think men hear their gender being blamed for women's bad time in life?

That's a really interesting point. It's related to the point I keep seeing on this thread that 'society hates white men'. I'm a white man and I go through my day without ever feeling hatred the world around me.

If I ever heard a woman blaming men for having a bad time in life, I'd think 2 things:
1. daft bint thinks thinks she can blame other people because she's not having a good time --personal responsibility, or
2. She is correct in her case and she's surrounded by sh1t fellas - the kind of sad stories you hear about women who keep getting in to abusive relationships.

In either case I don't take a bit of responsibility for other people's wild perceptions or wild life experiences.

Some fellas seem to be very easily upset by some silly accusations and take it as a personal criticism. Delicate souls.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is MGTOW a way to describe all men who choose not to get involved in relationships or is it a subset of men who don't want relationships specifically reasons to do with how the dating/marriage game is rigged against men?

When did we stop using 'bachelor' to describe someone who didn't want to get married and all that jazz?

Also, are MGTOW lads dropping out of society altogether or just dropping out of the romantic relationships side of society?

there seems to be 2 camps. one more libertarian, build up assets like property and live cheap so you can focus on things like travel or other hobbies. and second embrace a low cost lifestyle that means only having to have a minimum wage or gig work life.
I wouldnt worry though its not a threat to feminism, Ill raise an eyebrow when you take mgtow courses in Trinity :pac: . the way I look at it is that its a very small tip of a big iceberg where men cant get out of the gig or minimum wage economy so they are out of the game whether they choose or not.

cantdecide

whaleofaday wrote: »

For most, divorce is more like a fairy tale gone horribly, painfully wrong

I definitely agree with your whole post, particularly this. However,

whaleofaday wrote: »

I don't know any woman who has purposefully set out to money grab.

At this time, I have someone quite close to me who kind of going through an amalgamation of these two points- the fairy tale ends and it descends into a money grab. No one knew the marriage was in trouble and now the stories that have been coming out would curl your toes. Sheer audacity.

Colser

cantdecide wrote:

At this time, I have someone quite close to me who kind of going through an amalgamation of these two points- the fairy tale ends and it descends into a money grab. No one knew the marriage was in trouble and now the stories that have been coming out would curl your toes. Sheer audacity.

Are you hearing both sides of the story in the break ?

intheclouds

cantdecide wrote: »

At this time, I have someone quite close to me who kind of going through an amalgamation of these two points- the fairy tale ends and it descends into a money grab. No one knew the marriage was in trouble and now the stories that have been coming out would curl your toes. Sheer audacity.

It tends to depend on who has the money to grab I think. A female friend of mine was fleeced by the courts with her lazy ex claiming and being granted spousal support plus half the property that she owned and he'd never paid a penny towards.

So yes, divorce can descend into money grabbing, from either side.

cantdecide

Colser wrote: »

Are you hearing both sides of the story in the break ?

I have. I'm all about the grey area. Most of the stories are coming from the kids. The biggest challenge has been trying to stop him blaming himself but trust me, she's a monster and she's been breaking him down for years. The financial expectations were only the tip of the iceberg.

intheclouds wrote: »

So yes, divorce can descend into money grabbing, from either side.

Defo

Dr Jakub

whaleofaday wrote: »

I just can't get my head around your thought process here. I've never seen any murder described as anything less than an atrocity, regardless of gender.

Can you explain what you mean about how womens' prisons are "cushier" than mens? Could it be to do with overcrowding or the simple fact that there are more males in the prison population than females? I'm genuinely curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that "men are more creative by nature and contribute more to society"...care to expand?

There are suggestions that women should not go to prison, no matter what the crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/01/why-we-should-close-womens-prisons-and-treat-their-crimes-more-fairly

So much for equality.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote:

there seems to be 2 camps. one more libertarian, build up assets like property and live cheap so you can focus on things like travel or other hobbies. and second embrace a low cost lifestyle that means only having to have a minimum wage or gig work life. I wouldnt worry though its not a threat to feminism, Ill raise an eyebrow when you take mgtow courses in Trinity . the way I look at it is that its a very small tip of a big iceberg where men cant get out of the gig or minimum wage economy so they are out of the game whether they choose or not.

So the financial side is important and it seems to be about what you do with your free time. Surely the problem the men experience with minimum wage and not having as much money as they want, is very similar to the problems experienced by women? Could it be a problem with expectations? Do a lot of men buy into the American dream of earning millions and owning a big house with a pool and a Hummer and a harem of beautiful women?

Does there have to be an anti-dating aspect to be MGTOW? I ask because I know a couple of lads who were out of the whole scene of relationships with women. One was bored by relationships with women and the other was more cynical about dating etc. They are both in relationships now (the first has since come out as gay and the other is married). Were they MGTOW?

whaleofaday

intheclouds wrote: »

So yes, divorce can descend into money grabbing, from either side.

A friend of mine went through a divorce, it was fairly straight forward, no kids involved yet he began to receive letters asking for details of his pension etc. When he spoke to his ex she knew nothing about it, it was her solicitor who was initiating the request. Made me wonder how many solicitors are pushing divorcing couples into asking for more money. They certainly have a vested interest in dragging out negotiations, that's for sure.

Dr Jakub wrote: »

There are suggestions that women should not go to prison, no matter what the crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/01/why-we-should-close-womens-prisons-and-treat-their-crimes-more-fairly

So much for equality.

That's one article though. Who are you blaming for this? Women? Or the policy makers? I happen to think that prison is probably overused for both men and women, but that's another thread! If you are angry about this then why not get involved in politics in some way to put your own views across? Research the topic yourself and get passionate about it. Find out about prisons in Ireland and see whether they differ for males and females. Whining about "so much for equality" isn't going to help anyone.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So the financial side is important and it seems to be about what you do with your free time. Surely the problem the men experience with minimum wage and not having as much money as they want, is very similar to the problems experienced by women? Could it be a problem with expectations? Do a lot of men buy into the American dream of earning millions and owning a big house with a pool and a Hummer and a harem of beautiful women?

Does there have to be an anti-dating aspect to be MGTOW? I ask because I know a couple of lads who were out of the whole scene of relationships with women. One was bored by relationships with women and the other was more cynical about dating etc. They are both in relationships now (the first has since come out as gay and the other is married). Were they MGTOW?

men are providers right? back when the US had an industrial economy a man working in a car plant or similar could have a house in the burbs , wife and family. that option isnt open to them now. So I dont think its expectations its just not possible - maybe they will all vote Trump and MAGA :pac:

Colser

silverharp wrote:

men are providers right? back when the US had an industrial economy a man working in a car plant or similar could have a house in the burbs , wife and family. that option isnt open to them now. So I dont think its expectations its just not possible

Times have changed in general.Most women work now where as in my mother's day very few did (outside the home).Most families had one car,one holiday.no takeaways,seldom went to restaurants.shopped less,Christmas was one main toy,no phones,no TV package eat. It's not a man versus woman scenario but a change in lifestyle imo.