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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

If the guards are that easily bought then its no wonder the kinahans will never be caught

not sure how the govt can say that payment is within LRA........

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

not sure how the govt can say that payment is within LRA........

Emperors new clothes. Same way they can say s&s are core duty, but still pay Asti who refuse to do it in schools that are open on the 7th.

acequion

worseforwear wrote: »

I agree, however I don't think teachers are doing themselves justice in this discussion. Much of the tone gives the impression that they would be content to sit back for as long as it takes despite the impact on students and the school in a wider context. Don't ask me to do cpark hours, don't ask me to do Sns , just let me teach my classes. Unfortunately the life of a school requires much more than this. Many teachers will no doubt give of there own time to make up lost tuition time, however this doesn't come across in the discussion.
Yes students are in school for 5 years but it's their one opportunity at 2nd level education, and teachers are getting paid during their 35-40 years, so I don't think this part of the argument stands up.

My view overall is that members have been very poorly advised by the ASTI leadership. It was presented as don't agree to lansdowne road and you won't have to do CPark.
Very few teachers were made fully aware of the consequences of the rejection. I.e. Loss of increments, still in fempi, loss of sns payments and loss of ward report benefits.
CID's were pushed from 2 years to 4 yrs
That certainly wasn't helping younger teachers.

I'm just a little sceptical of the leadership's motives

On your first point I would reply that this is not a thread about students,this is a thread about strike action.There are plenty of threads on this forum where the dedication of teachers and their commitment to their students is very apparent. However,with respect, I find the "ye're not thinking about the students" argument a bit tiresome, both from you and others.Call a spade a spade.There are always people inconvenienced by strikes,in this case it's the students and I think everybody regrets that.But it doesn't constitute a reason not to strike if the motive is very valid,as it is here.

Secondly I completely disagree with your second point. It was not presented as "don't agree to LRA and you won't have to do CP" All the facts,the consequences of a no to LRA were clearly put out there by the ASTI. Teachers aren't small children that need to be sat down and have everything explained word for word. If they are not engaged enough in their own working conditions and go off and vote [or not even bother to vote] without being fully aware, then the blame for not knowing what they were doing lies squarely with them. The ASTI is not a church preaching to its flock. All the issues are thoroughly debated with all the pros and cons before being put out to vote.

And as for your "I just want to teach my class" point,just what is wrong with that? Personally I don't want to do S&S and I'm not interested in the running of the school, I actually just want to teach my classes,which is what I signed up to many years ago.When my turn came for a post I turned it down,twice,regardless of the extra payment offered, because I wasn't interested. Yes a school needs to be run but leave that to those who are interested in that aspect of education and pay them accordingly. I have nothing but contempt for the Government's attempts to save a few bucks by forcing everything on the teacher in the name of "reform" Call it precisely what it is, a cheap shot.. And there have been too many cheap shots over the past 8 years,hence the demoralisation we are now witnessing and hence what you are reading on this thread. Too bad if you think it doesn't do us justice.It's the reality of where we're at.

Get Real

km79 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda-pay-dispute-new-pre-shift-payment-offered-1.2847581

gardai to be offered extra pay for the 15 minute period BEFORE they start their shift...........

Yeah but this 15 mins is either unpaid at the minute or they'd be made work those extra 15 mins. It isn't just free money before they even start.

A little bit further into the article: "It was not clear last night if the payment would be for work that was already done and unpaid, or for extra work that would have be carried out.
Sources said no payments would be made where no work was done"

And that's even if that happens. Alot being thrown about and alot of guesswork.

gaiscioch

I don't know what annoys me most about the Marian Finucane Show on Radio 1 30 minutes ago: that the show's producers clearly arranged an ambush of the ASTI by having all guests against the ASTI, or the fact that Kieran Christie (who came on the phone to "defend" our position) offered nothing but inarticulate waffle which refused to put the facts out there.

We need a straight-talker who is sharp enough to destroy the nonsense spouted by Labour's Kieran McDonnell, the TUI's Gerard Craughwell, Eddie Molloy and the two female contributors. This misplaced "niceness" by Christie is infuriating. Pound them with repeating the same facts. Show conviction in us, in our cause.

Oh and they can spare us this patronising raiméis about teaching being a "noble" profession when they all want to make it as yellow pack as it is in England (one of them even praised teaching in the North where she said with envy that no allowances are paid to teachers).

clunked

gaiscioch wrote: »

I don't know what annoys me most about the Marian Finucane Show on Radio 1 30 minutes ago: that the show's producers clearly arranged an ambush of the ASTI by having all guests against the ASTI, or the fact that Kieran Christie (who came on the phone to "defend" our position) offered nothing but inarticulate waffle which refused to put the facts out there.

We need a straight-talker who is sharp enough to destroy the nonsense spouted by Labour's Kieran McDonnell, the TUI's Gerard Craughwell, Eddie Molloy and the two female contributors. This misplaced "niceness" by Christie is infuriating. Pound them with repeating the same facts. Show conviction in us, in our cause.

Oh and they can spare us this patronising raiméis about teaching being a "noble" profession when they all want to make it as yellow pack as it is in England (one of them even praised teaching in the North where she said with envy that no allowances are paid to teachers).

If Eddie Molloy was such a good business consultant he wouldn't need the fee from Marian FinuncaneðŸ˜¡

judeboy101

gaiscioch wrote: »

I don't know what annoys me most about the Marian Finucane Show on Radio 1 30 minutes ago: that the show's producers clearly arranged an ambush of the ASTI by having all guests against the ASTI, or the fact that Kieran Christie (who came on the phone to "defend" our position) offered nothing but inarticulate waffle which refused to put the facts out there.

We need a straight-talker who is sharp enough to destroy the nonsense spouted by Labour's Kieran McDonnell, the TUI's Gerard Craughwell, Eddie Molloy and the two female contributors. This misplaced "niceness" by Christie is infuriating. Pound them with repeating the same facts. Show conviction in us, in our cause.

Oh and they can spare us this patronising raiméis about teaching being a "noble" profession when they all want to make it as yellow pack as it is in England (one of them even praised teaching in the North where she said with envy that no allowances are paid to teachers).

Haven't seen a worse ambush since beal na mblath

Mardy Bum

judeboy101 wrote: »

gaiscioch wrote: »

I don't know what annoys me most about the Marian Finucane Show on Radio 1 30 minutes ago: that the show's producers clearly arranged an ambush of the ASTI by having all guests against the ASTI, or the fact that Kieran Christie (who came on the phone to "defend" our position) offered nothing but inarticulate waffle which refused to put the facts out there.

We need a straight-talker who is sharp enough to destroy the nonsense spouted by Labour's Kieran McDonnell, the TUI's Gerard Craughwell, Eddie Molloy and the two female contributors. This misplaced "niceness" by Christie is infuriating. Pound them with repeating the same facts. Show conviction in us, in our cause.

Oh and they can spare us this patronising raim is about teaching being a "noble" profession when they all want to make it as yellow pack as it is in England (one of them even praised teaching in the North where she said with envy that no allowances are paid to teachers).

Haven't seen a worse ambush since beal na mblath

Very ironic it was on MF's show considering her own ludicrous wage. TUI leaders are Labour circa 2011-2016 and hopefully will see a vast exit of members by the end of this dispute.

MrJones1973

You will win some media lose some media. I'm more concerned about the planning of action at standing committee. One wonders why legal advice on s and s was not obtained before this action commenced ?-I doubt any advice can be certain but I get impression nobody thought of it. They must have known boot boy Bruton would not pay us. I'm sure he has legal advice too.
Assuming advice is at least 50/50 let's go to court

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You will win some media lose some media. I'm more concerned about the planning of action at standing committee. One wonders why legal advice on s and s was not obtained before this action commenced ?-I doubt any advice can be certain but I get impression nobody thought of it. They must have known boot boy Bruton would not pay us. I'm sure he has legal advice too.
Assuming advice is at least 50/50 let's go to court

We will never win the public over but we need our mouthpieces to stick to simple well thought out facts and to avoid getting dragged into circular arguments by the Helen Lovejoy brigade.

MrJones1973

Some of us get paid nov 7 others don't. Bad bad Leroy Brown bad

2011abc

Seriously that Sunday morning talk radio whether RTE or Today FM is quasi fascist !

amacca

It was hilariously one sided and biased. Christie does himself or the teachers no favours with his overly long preambles followed by emming and aaing at times but several times during the interview he wasn't allowed finish an answer and instead was cut off and talked over...it seemed entirely planned the way he was cut in two sometimes mid sentence

revolting stuff from rte in a way.

Its beyond me why Christie etc can't separate the two issues of substitution/supervision and pay "equalisation" for the small cohort of teachers that joined since 2011 never mind pay restoration.....if he's trying to wind the clock down he doesn't need to he's got valid issues and concerns and very reasonable counter arguments to most of the guff/hearsay and handwringing marions spanish inquisition could come up with.

its also beyond me why the simple point that closures on monday are entirely due to govt side behaving dishonourably and reneging on a prior agreement (seeing as marion doest like them being called their names and seems to think it will be less confusing to call separate agreements the same name)........make the point that asti fulfilled the terms to HRA govt has not..they continued to work ss for free (thus leaving govt lots and lots of time to find a solution) until eventually they had no choice but to withdraw.....after all whats the point of an agreement if both sides don't honour it

the only merit I can see in him being so meek and mild is that at least it highlights to the intelligent listener the one sided/biased way the issue was dealt with on the program

Its also rich (and I mean that literally as well) to have Marion wading in with the holier than thou stuff considering the hundreds of thousands she's paid to cough, splutter and whine her way through a Sunday morning.

acequion

Missed that programme, forgot to put back clocks! How soon can I get it on podcast? Leaving the country tomorrow for a few days so can I get it today?

I despise the Irish media and also Bruton. Love the "boot boy Bruton" nickname,:pac:
But we do need tough,articulate speakers to represent us in the one sided media circus. Kieran is far too nice.

mirrorwall14

acequion wrote: »

Missed that programme, forgot to put back clocks! How soon can I get it on podcast? Leaving the country tomorrow for a few days so can I get it today?

I despise the Irish media and also Bruton. Love the "boot boy Bruton" nickname,:pac:
But we do need tough,articulate speakers to represent us in the one sided media circus. Kieran is far too nice.

Don't do it. You'll just end up seriously annoyed

clunked

More like rancher boy Bruton.

2011abc

acequion wrote: »

Missed that programme, forgot to put back clocks! How soon can I get it on podcast? Leaving the country tomorrow for a few days so can I get it today?

I despise the Irish media and also Bruton. Love the "boot boy Bruton" nickname,:pac:
But we do need tough,articulate speakers to represent us in the one sided media circus. Kieran is far too nice.

I heard he's well able to growl when needed .Right man in right place at right time hopefully .

deiseindublin

Why did Christie simply not say that government reneged on HRA money promised so they're stopping unpaid S&S? It's down to DES to offer the payment and schools can stay open.

I think it was a tactical error to have 2 different formats for LPT'S and S&S issue. Nobody seems to understand and thinks teachers not teaching from the 7th. I'm sick of explaining the difference.

tayto lover

ASTI have a few very bad speakers.
Not only do they fail to explain the problems in simple language to the public, they also reflect badly on their members.

acequion

2011abc wrote: »

I heard he's well able to growl when needed .Right man in right place at right time hopefully .

Oh I do have faith in him! I feel he has our back unlike his predecessor. But I just wish he were a better public speaker.

km79

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1030/827988-garda-strike-talks/

Guards to be offered "substantial package" to avert strike
Considering they are asking for a16.5% pay increase will be interesting to see what they are offered

acequion

tayto lover wrote: »

ASTI have a few very bad speakers.
Not only do they fail to explain the problems in simple language to the public, they also reflect badly on their members.

The public will understand what they want to understand.

The strike is because of pay inequality. ASTI members don't accept a three tier pay scale in the one profession and want everyone on the same terms.

The S&S issue is because the Government did not stick to their side of the bargain though ASTI members did.And because the Gov reneged and didn't pay the monies due from September, ASTI members are withdrawing that free labour [of three years] from 7th November.

So very simple really. Can't see how on earth even the worst public speaker could reflect badly on a group of workers fighting for a principle.

Unless of course the whole issue is fudged and spun by a biased media!

tayto lover

acequion wrote: »

The public will understand what they want to understand.

The strike is because of pay inequality. ASTI members don't accept a three tier pay scale in the one profession and want everyone on the same terms.

The S&S issue is because the Government did not stick to their side of the bargain though ASTI members did.And because the Gov reneged and didn't pay the monies due from September, ASTI members are withdrawing that free labour [of three years] from 7th November.

So very simple really. Can't see how on earth even the worst public speaker could reflect badly on a group of workers fighting for a principle.

Unless of course the whole issue is fudged and spun by a biased media!

I know the story BUT the general public do not. My point was that the ASTI leaders are not putting it CLEARLY across.

acequion

I've just listened to MF. An ambush is right. Impossible to reason with such a hostile audience. And that is probably where KC went wrong,he actually tried to reason with them and was fed to the wolves as aresult. But for all that I don't think he did too badly.

But this is Ireland,folks,where people will patronise about a "noble" profession out of one side of their mouth and damn you for daring to defy the SQ out of the other.

One thing I would ask about though.One of them said that we have the "weakest evaluation system" of the OECD countries. What does that mean and where is he getting that from? I'd like to look into that.

clunked

acequion wrote: »

I've just listened to MF. An ambush is right. Impossible to reason with such a hostile audience. And that is probably where KC went wrong,he actually tried to reason with them and was fed to the wolves as aresult. But for all that I don't think he did too badly.

But this is Ireland,folks,where people will patronise about a "noble" profession out of one side of their mouth and damn you for daring to defy the SQ out of the other.

One thing I would ask about though.One of them said that we have the "weakest evaluation system" of the OECD countries. What does that mean and where is he getting that from? I'd like to look into that.

Complaints@rte.ie is our friend here.

MrJones1973

Again I say you will tie yourselves in Knots worrying about the media. For What? They will condemn you for being in or out of Partnership deals. Does Carl O'Brien actually have any background in Education? (Irish Times) . They will tell you property is great just before it crashes. The Ind now owned by Denis o'Brien with his own agenda, Irish times obsessed with abortion while ignoring lack of movement on new maternity hospital.

They condemn teachers (Elaine o Byrne SBP) for Croke park as it did screw NQTs while completely ignoring context of time and redundancy threat. I wanted to call their bluff on redundancy but in the end Croke park and its bastard child HR passed. But I wont condemn my colleagues for giving in during extraordinary times. If we had gone on strike you can bet all their Education lackeys-O byrne ,Mooney etc would have condemned that as well?
So please dont worry about media- if this battle is to be won it will be won by annoying the Government
To annoy the Government you must annoy the public

I have never spoken more truth than I have done above. Trying to stamp out media bias is impossible. Its like putting g out a bush fire with a bucket of water. Occasional squelching but you wont win. You win against Government not media

worseforwear

Everybody should calm down and enjoy another week off:)

MrJones1973

Teachers/Lecturers on IT payroll or Ind payroll very very suspect.

You toe line or Papa smurf not going to pay you baby!

Brian Mooney,Elaine O byrne, Colm 'six jobs' O rourke etc

mirrorwall14

Garda rejected. Great for the Asti

TheDriver

And the Gardaí had some interesting proposals on the table.