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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

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spurious

student46 banned for two days for repeated trolling

Spiro66

student46 wrote: »

If we are not allowed in teachers cannot teach and cannot be paid. I would be more on your side if you stood up and said we are not working so don't want to be paid, But atm you just want to hurt students and not get any hurt for yourselves.
Also look for the PR disaster of saying you are in to teach so want pay but call the guards to remove the students you won't teach.

Student46. Can I make 2 points to you.
1 We will be available to teach on the 7th. Our employers are threatening to close the school. Please direct your anger at our employers.
2 80% of teachers voted to strike for the benefit of current young teachers which could include you or your friends in 4 short years time. Your welcome.

The_Valeyard

Spiro66 wrote: »

Student46. Can I make 2 points to you.
1 We will be available to teach on the 7th. Our employers are threatening to close the school. Please direct your anger at our employers.
2 80% of teachers voted to strike for the benefit of current young teachers which could include you or your friends in 4 short years time. Your welcome.

Ignore it. Not worth your time of energy responding.

from what I've heard something far, students by and far and very supportive Of The action and not simply for a day off.

coillsaille

man_no_plan wrote: »

You can say phoney h&s but anyone who has been in schools for any length of time knows that supervision is of paramount importance and the duty of care of a prudent parent is the standard.

Given the **** that happens when the school is well supervised , how would it be prudent to allow students to attend school when you know there will be no supervision.

I said phoney insurance precaution which is what is being given by BOMs to staff. I also happen to be someone who has been teaching in schools for a length of time - 20 years, so I'm fully aware that supervision is of paramount importance.
But that does not apply when the school is closed to students which is the situation under discussion.

Eintrachtrob

Anyone think a deal between ASTI/DES could be reached by Friday November 5th?

jayo76

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0006_2014.pdf

Link to Circular 0006/2014 where as an earlier post suggested it does indeed state in point number 18 that the option to opt out is irrevocable.

Furthermore in Appendix 1 in the declaration to be signed it states "I confirm
that I understand that my decision to opt-out of supervision and substitution duties will result in a reduction to my salary on an ongoing basis until retirement"

In light of this how can the Department seriously claim that even those who have opted out of the scheme are still technically bound by it and can have their pay docked? How many times can we put up with this government changing the goalposts? Do it for free for three years and then we will restore payments...... No sorry, sign up to LRA and those payments we previously promised unconditionally to restore we will give you....... Sorry, those of you who think you have permanently and irrevocably opted out of the agreement we were only joking with you, we can actually decide at any time that you are still part of the scheme too.

man_no_plan

jayo76 wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0006_2014.pdf

Link to Circular 0006/2014 where as an earlier post suggested it does indeed state in point number 18 that the option to opt out is irrevocable.

Furthermore in Appendix 1 in the declaration to be signed it states "I confirm
that I understand that my decision to opt-out of supervision and substitution duties will result in a reduction to my salary on an ongoing basis until retirement"

In light of this how can the Department seriously claim that even those who have opted out of the scheme are still technically bound by it and can have their pay docked? How many times can we put up with this government changing the goalposts? Do it for free for three years and then we will restore payments...... No sorry, sign up to LRA and those payments we previously promised unconditionally to restore we will give you....... Sorry, those of you who think you have permanently and irrevocably opted out of the agreement we were only joking with you, we can actually decide at any time that you are still part of the scheme too.

Its full of grey areas. Are you still paying not to do it or does that stop too? Would that make you no worse off than anyone else?

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/garda-set-to-be-offered-new-pay-deal-by-government-1.2843389

Could you give us the jist of the story rather than just a link. on some phones the full link title doesn't come up either. Also avoids the issue of paywalls, clickthrough traffic etc.
Ta
Mod

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Parents will be notified that BOM can no loner discharge their duties in relation to the H&S of the students.
The school is closed to students but is open as a place of work to teaching and non teaching staff

I'd agree with man no plans assessment of it too, it cannot be said that the school is open as a place of work for teachers as teachers won't be teaching. I know it was done in the past but the optics of that would be a disaster. At the moment I get the feeling that parents are somewhat sympathetic, if we start refusing entry to students but then go inside ourselves just to get paid then that's game over.

Although... Is that what we want? Stir up enough anger amongst parents so that the government might get a move on and do something. The longer people support a strike... The longer it goes on.

It'd be interesting alright if students and parents joined the teachers to protest outside the gates...

I dunno, I can see where student46`s sentiment is coming from... At least they're taking an interest in their education. I thought student protest was dead, so if she's just as willing to fight for her right to education, as teachers are to fight for fair play, then good on her. Sure, we could say that she's misguided, but how often do we hear people telling us to get real etc?

coillsaille

Apparently the minister confirmed on Morning Ireland that we won't be paid from Nov 7th if schools are closed. It took some pressing from the interviewer before he eventually confirmed it. Didn't hear it myself but so I was told.

evolving_doors

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Anyone think a deal between ASTI/DES could be reached by Friday November 5th?

I say not a hope, no matter what proposals (if any) are put forward then they'd have to ballot. Why would the dept be so quick to do this outside LR, they'll deal with the gardai 1st before even considering teachers.
The dept are on for saving a pretty penny when pay is deducted too, see above post. Avg 600 P/w for 10,000 odd teachers = €6million .(if the schools are indeed closed!)

Peppa Pig

man_no_plan wrote: »

your teachers will see you right once this is sorted. You know that and I know that.

How will that happen? Say the school is closed for 3 or 4 weeks,how do expect a LC/JC student to make that time up?

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

On November 7th, it is not teachers who are shutting the doors on you, it is essentially the government reneging on a deal they made with us.

You will have no right to be in the school on that day.

Do you believe teachers have the right to be in the school that day. available for work, if it is closed?

As a separate issue, could someone give me a brief overview as to why the TUI are happy to teach and do S&S, but not the ASTI? Surely it affects all teachers equally. It's something I am struggling to get my head around.

MrJones1973

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Anyone think a deal between ASTI/DES could be reached by Friday November 5th?

Anything could happen. politically its a long time

km79

Peppa Pig wrote: »

How will that happen? Say the school is closed for 3 or 4 weeks,how do expect a LC/JC student to make that time up?

Do you believe teachers have the right to be in the school that day. available for work, if it is closed?

As a separate issue, could someone give me a brief overview as to why the TUI are happy to teach and do S&S, but not the ASTI? Surely it affects all teachers equally. It's something I am struggling to get my head around.

Asti consists of ONLY secondary teachers
TUI consists of secondary teachers AND 3rd level
All TUI members cited together on LRA. S and s does not affect many of them
So it affect all TEACHERS equally but not all unions

MrJones1973

Peppa Pig wrote: »

How will that happen? Say the school is closed for 3 or 4 weeks,how do expect a LC/JC student to make that time up?

Do you believe teachers have the right to be in the school that day. available for work, if it is closed?

As a separate issue, could someone give me a brief overview as to why the TUI are happy to teach and do S&S, but not the ASTI? Surely it affects all teachers equally. It's something I am struggling to get my head around.

Its a complicated situation and it hinges on where you think s and s fits in with your contract? Is it a core duty as boot boy Bruton says? New teachers have it written in contract I hear. This has to go to court and there be dragons!

jayo76

man_no_plan wrote: »

Its full of grey areas. Are you still paying not to do it or does that stop too? Would that make you no worse off than anyone else?

I believe I am still paying to not do it, havent had any word to say different to this. And as the agreement I signed as outlined says these deductions will continue until retirement how could my deduction have been stopped? It is so full of grey areas that it is a joke. I do believe this is reasonably clearcut i signed up to and so did the Government an irrevocable deduction that continues until retirement.

jayo76

Peppa Pig wrote: »

As a separate issue, could someone give me a brief overview as to why the TUI are happy to teach and do S&S, but not the ASTI? Surely it affects all teachers equally. It's something I am struggling to get my head around.

TUI are continuing to do S and S because they are being paid to continue to do it, ASTI are not happy to continue doing it as they are not being paid to do it. That simple really. If the Government paid S and S to ASTI members as they promised to do under Haddington Road this would be a non issue.

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Its a complicated situation and it hinges on where you think s and s fits in with your contract? Is it a core duty as boot boy Bruton says? New teachers have it written in contract I hear. This has to go to court and there be dragons!

Sorry to rain on your parade Mr.White but its written into the contract of all teachers retrospectively unless you could buy yourself out of it. That was the HRA which both unions, reluctantly, accepted.

You're right though, a lot could happen very quickly on this. As for averting action in November if a deal is cobbled together the standing committee could suspend industrial action pending a vote, it doesn't require a vote in advance.

Inspector Coptoor

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Do you believe teachers have the right to be in the school that day. available for work, if it is closed?
.

It's not a question of belief.
I have a right to Access my place of work.
We haven't made the decision to close the school.
The board of management has.
This is because the government have broken the terms of the HRA.
3 years of working up to 2 hours a week for free ends now.

This can be solved very easily.
Honor the "agreement".

They coerce us into these "agreements" and then don't adhere to the Ts &Cs themselves.

man_no_plan

jayo76 wrote: »

I believe I am still paying to not do it, havent had any word to say different to this. And as the agreement I signed as outlined says these deductions will continue until retirement how could my deduction have been stopped? It is so full of grey areas that it is a joke. I do believe this is reasonably clearcut i signed up to and so did the Government an irrevocable deduction that continues until retirement.

Unfortunately its not a choice I could have made at the time. Presumably the continued deduction is as a result of the payment going on the scale point so that you would in effect be getting paid less for not doing the s/s. As for the situation now I don't know.

I think the point we are missing here in a bigger scale is that FEMPI is the law and part if FEMPI is the collective agreements. If you're not in then your pay is cut. If you are in then it would be paid.

I think that the s/s is a sideshow. The real issue here was CP hours. The ASTI sold its members a pup in May. They said pull out of Croke Park hours its as simple as that. But its not that simple as we see. Whether there was an agreement or not is both important and not important. Its important to know and to note that it was agreed but its equally important to know that you're in FEMPI or you're in the LRA and there's no provision to be half in or half out.

The position on S/S in the HRA is

As the above annualised payments are in the nature of a pensionable allowance (and are not amenable to current “buy-out” arrangements), the following arrangements shall apply:
‐ A gross additional payment equivalent to the 2011 lower payment rate paid for supervision and substitution will be included in the common basic scale for teachers. This will be included in two moieties with half included in the school year 2016/17 and the second half included in the school year 2017/18.
Such payments to be considered in any future pay negotiation arrangements in respect of teachers. The duties continue to be performed indefinitely. Full document HERE

My own view is this

The ASTI have had changes at the top and were keen to toughen their stance.
The JC was rejected in spite of it meeting all of the stated concerns before talks which was seen as a show of strength
Teachers are annoyed with Croke Park hours - Poor leadership, im not just talking about the union leadership, i'm talking about active members influencing inactive members, gave the impression that rejection of th eCrokp Park Hours was a simple act of voting no.
The DES warned that the S/S wouln't be paid if the union was not covered by the LRA - the union didn't believe it, DES called the bluff and didn't pay
The strike action over LPT's as they're called was pandering to a young element that didn't feel well served by the union. This however has now been overshadowed by the S/S row and the closed schools. Now ASTI say they want a timeline to pay equalisation. That is far from what was said at the time of teh vote. Nuacht Says that the vote is because the DES didnt restore the common basic scale before the end of August - the cats and dogs knew this wasn't happening. The impression here is that it is full restoration or bust. This could never have been the case.
Now we are here, looking at a serious industrial dispute and people are dirtying their pants because they were poorly informed about the consequences of their vote.

The reasons for the action and the concerns are very valid and laudable but I think, as I thought in May, that the ASTI have been foolhardy and have led members up the garden path on this one.

Right now ASTI teachers could be getting paid for S/S and increments, the LPT's could be getting the increments and the improved pay from the TUI INTO deal.

Maybe the action will get the pay commission moving more quickly, maybe there will be a definite timeline put in place after this but that is not what members voted for. S/S paid will come back, CP hours will come back, ?new JC will be accepted, all things the ASTI membership rejected. for that the ASTI leadership should be held to account because they had to know that this would end in compromise but they made it look like they were going to change the whole thing in one go.

I hope that when it's all over the two unions can get working together. The JC dispute was the most effective campaign by the teacher unions in recent times because they had a clear strategy and vision and well constructed arguments with a clear strategy and a clear message on what was the bottom line. The bottom line on these current issues keeps moving.

scout353

coillsaille wrote: »

Which is what any decent BOM that values a good relationship with staff should do. To close the school to staff on the pretext of a phoney insurance related precaution is an insult to the staff and is facilitating wage docking.

BOM's are being advised by the JMB that failure to follow their advice could leave them exposed in the event of an action.

My issue is that the JMB are now just a mouthpiece for the DES/Government

scout353

The DES has just issued a circular on the Withdrawal from S&S on Nov 7

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0071_2016.pdf

They are requiring a teacher to sign a declaration that they are available for work including S&S.

Furthermore they are telling those who have opted out that this requirement no longer applies to them!!!

5. In circumstances where a school is not in a position to open for students as a result
of the withdrawal of teachers from their duties relating to S&S, teachers who have
not confirmed their availability for the full range of duties including S&S duties (i.e.
who have not submitted a completed and signed form to the Principal of their
school) will not be paid for the duration of the closure.

6. All staff other than teachers in the school will remain on payroll in the event of the
school not being in a position to open for students due to a withdrawal of teachers
from S&S duties.

7. The ASTI directive instructs members to withdraw from the Supervision and
Substitution Scheme as comprehended by the terms of Circular letters 0006/2014
and 0042/2014. The effect of this is that the ‘opt-out’ provided for under the scheme
will not apply to ASTI members who are subject to their directive.

Now let's see where the ASTI legal advice is!!!!!!

maude6868

scout353 wrote: »

The DES has just issued a circular on the Withdrawal from S&S on Nov 7

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0071_2016.pdf

They are requiring a teacher to sign a declaration that they are available for work including S&S.

Furthermore they are telling those who have opted out that this requirement no longer applies to them!!!

5. In circumstances where a school is not in a position to open for students as a result
of the withdrawal of teachers from their duties relating to S&S, teachers who have
not confirmed their availability for the full range of duties including S&S duties (i.e.
who have not submitted a completed and signed form to the Principal of their
school) will not be paid for the duration of the closure.

6. All staff other than teachers in the school will remain on payroll in the event of the
school not being in a position to open for students due to a withdrawal of teachers
from S&S duties.

7. The ASTI directive instructs members to withdraw from the Supervision and
Substitution Scheme as comprehended by the terms of Circular letters 0006/2014
and 0042/2014. The effect of this is that the ‘opt-out’ provided for under the scheme
will not apply to ASTI members who are subject to their directive.

Now let's see where the ASTI legal advice is!!!!!!

So when should we expect a refund of the 'opt-out' money we have paid since not signing the LRA. With no teacher doing supervision how can one cohort still pay not to do supervision which they now tell us is an irrelevant agreement anyway. The opt-out form we signed stated it was irrevocable and continued until retirement. Now, as usual, the Government move the posts and tell us the opt-out no longer applies. Legal eagles need to sort this quickly because it should be a no brainer. This is what I have been asking since May and never got an answer so they knew this was coming. When I asked the ASTI in the summer they told me that the Dept have not indicated that they would withdraw payment.

maude6868

The DES issued this in their circular today

7. The ASTI directive instructs members to withdraw from the Supervision and
Substitution Scheme as comprehended by the terms of Circular letters 0006/2014
and 0042/2014. The effect of this is that the ‘opt-out’ provided for under the scheme
will not apply to ASTI members who are subject to their directive.

Yet in their circular re Haddington Road when we signed the form to opt out, they stated

'The opt-out is irrevocable and having so opted, a teacher may not subsequently opt back
in to the requirement to carry out supervision and substitution duties'.

This 'irrevocable' opt-out now suddenly no longer applies. I hate being made a fool of because fool I'm not.

judeboy101

maude6868 wrote: »

The DES issued this in their circular today

7. The ASTI directive instructs members to withdraw from the Supervision and
Substitution Scheme as comprehended by the terms of Circular letters 0006/2014
and 0042/2014. The effect of this is that the ‘opt-out’ provided for under the scheme
will not apply to ASTI members who are subject to their directive.

Yet in their circular re Haddington Road when we signed the form to opt out, they stated

'The opt-out is irrevocable and having so opted, a teacher may not subsequently opt back
in to the requirement to carry out supervision and substitution duties'.

This 'irrevocable' opt-out now suddenly no longer applies. I hate being made a fool of because fool I'm not.

This is the text book definition of Kafkaesque

Mardy Bum

I hope all ASTI members hold strong and don't start signing that sheet on the quiet.

solerina

I must admit I have an issue driving the entire journey to work on Nov 7th only to finding myself locked out and with no way of proving I even turned up....whatever about losing a days pay, but having to fork out for diesel too...our BOM is closing the school if things remain as they are. Hopefully things will change before then.

judeboy101

solerina wrote: »

I must admit I have an issue driving the entire journey to work on Nov 7th only to finding myself locked out and with no way of proving I even turned up....whatever about losing a days pay, but having to fork out for diesel too...our BOM is closing the school if things remain as they are. Hopefully things will change before then.

A quick selfie at the locked gates and posted to school twitter or facebook or emailed to principal should suffice, also cc minister education taoiseach media outlets and the parens assoc.

JellieBabie

man_no_plan wrote: »

Right now ASTI teachers could be getting paid for S/S and increments, the LPT's could be getting the increments and the improved pay from the TUI INTO deal.

LPTs could be getting improved pay yes but not equal pay. It is still not equal under the TUI deal. I think this is something we should have a very hard line on - otherwise we are supporting the idea that people can be paid differently on arbitrary grounds.

Eintrachtrob

Are the DES basically telling ASTI members who opted out of S&S that the opt out no longer applies because the opt ins have opted out?

PS - Keep giving us free money.