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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

There is some argument as to whether or not it would be a lockout.

It would be for non-members /tui as from what I can gather the jmb have not issued any declaration letter (to be signed by tui/non-union) for the 7th only for the strike days.

Eintrachtrob

judeboy101 wrote: »

S&s are part of contract so by not doing it you are in breach if contract therefore no pay. Those who opt out and tui/non union is the only grey area, but if you signed up for s&s and don't do it on 7th you are not getting paid even I gov broke deal first, they hold purse strings and by time a test case would make it to court, we'd all be paupers.

Part of contract. . . Wouldn't be so sure about that one.

Remember S&S was done for years on the good will of teachers, many of whom signed a contract with no reference to S&S. It was just something that was done. I don't have access to the contract I signed many years ago. Nevertheless I don;t remember reading about S&S.

S&S is part of industrial agreement. It's in the HRA which has been extended to the LRA. ASTI have rejected LRA but were still prepared to do S&S unpaid for 9 weeks to the mid term whilst the DES paid other teachers.

In the end the DES have brought this on themselves.
Only they can resolve it.

Eintrachtrob

paddybarry wrote: »

Haddington Road made S and S part of core duties. Fact that we are withdrawing S and S from Monday 7th, means that they can deduct us pay as we are not fulfilling our contract of employment. Showing up for work makes no difference.

Haddington Road is an industrial agreement.

It is not a contractual agreement.

coillsaille

judeboy101 wrote: »

I think jmb are putting massive pressure on principals and chairmans to ensure a lockout, they really don't want teachers in school as that would highlight the govs unwillingness to pay for s&s. They will use "insurance" and health&safety based on the fact that a few students always turn up for school even on days it is closed as a reason they can't 'risk' opening even to teachers only.

Our BOM has decided on a lockout we just found out. The reason given is exactly as above.

clunked

Some rather disgraceful articles from the dept mouthpiece, I mean the Irish Times this morning. Honestly for a paper that prides itself on its integrity I'm glad that I have long ceased to pay for any of its copy

Icsics

Lockout here too....

Inspector Coptoor

No lock out in our place.

Only closed to students

evolving_doors

But what can a school do, Allow pupils in and then put them at risk/have an accident when there's no S&S?
It's just a closure on health and safety grounds... not a deliberate lockout.

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But what can a school do, Allow pupils in and then put them at risk/have an accident when there's no S&S?
It's just a closure on health and safety grounds... not a deliberate lockout.

No question of allowing students in and there never was. Parents and students can be informed that the school is closed to students. That should have no bearing on whether the school is open for staff. We often had planning days where it was staff only and the school was closed to students.
But now BOMs, under JMB advice/instructions, are saying they can't take the "risk" of even a single student turning up and getting injured so the school has to be locked up. It's a feeble excuse. First of all surely the school is absolved of any liability if parents were informed not to send students in. Secondly all it would take is a BOM member hanging around that morning to turn away any students in the highly unlikely event that some showed up.
No, as far as I can see it's a lockout. It will strengthen the DES's hand in not paying us if they can say we weren't in school which is why the JMB is pushing this.

downthemiddle

For people seeking clarification

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0070_2016.pdf

student46

If teachers are going to be there to teach class but not due S+S can I go in to their classes and leave the school grounds for lunch or if a teacher is sick?

If teachers are there why can't I go to class? My LC is important and if teachers are saying they should be paid cause they are in the school to be able to teach why can't I go to class, I will leave the grounds for lunch break so they won't have to cover S+S.

I plan to go to school on Thrusday and will go to my classes unless the school is locked. If the teachers are there I will be in class.

coillsaille

downthemiddle wrote: »

For people seeking clarification

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0070_2016.pdf

That's just about the strike days. Doesn't give any clarification on the week of Nov 7th.

downthemiddle

coillsaille wrote: »

That's just about the strike days. Doesn't give any clarification on the week of Nov 7th.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1025/826653-asti-teachers-strike/

The President of the Teachers' Union of Ireland, meanwhile, has said that if schools close on Thursday, then TUI members expect to be paid.
Joanne Irwin said that should schools remain open when ASTI members begin strike action, then TUI members will be available for work.
However, speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Ms Irwin said that members would be reluctant to pass a picket.
She said that there over 200 schools where teachers are all TUI members, so these will remain open.
There are also over 200 schools where teachers are members of both the TUI and the ASTI, a decision on whether these schools will remain open on Thursday is expected to be known by this evening.
She added that no TUI member would undertake the work of an ASTI colleague.
"We are not on strike. This is a strike by our ASTI colleagues so because we're not on strike our members will be getting paid on Thursday. We are available for work and will go to work if the schools are open.
"If you are a member of TUI we are saying that it is normal trade union practice in relation to any industrial disputes, that you would not undertake the work of a colleague who is in dispute."
Ms Irwin said that the TUI expected the public pay commission to address differential pay scales and this has been written into an agreement made between the TUI and the Department of Education.
She said that should the public pay commission fail to address this, then the TUI has a mandate to take action.
Meanwhile, the Department of Education has issued instructions to schools as to how to record staff absences on the seven ASTI strike days.
Schools have been advised that attendance or otherwise on those days of all staff employed by the school should be recorded.
The Department's online payroll system has a special category for absence due to "strike in school".

political analyst

Carl O'Brien wrote in today's Irish Times that some ASTI members feel that they were left in the dark over the fact that withdrawal from supervision cover would lead to indefinite school closures.

scout353

political analyst wrote: »

Carl O'Brien wrote in today's Irish Times that some ASTI members feel that they were left in the dark over the fact that withdrawal from supervision cover would lead to indefinite school closures.

How can teachers not realise this.

Surely it was the intention (as in all industrial actions) to cause disruption so as to highlight their case.

Teachers will be available for work on Monday 7th Nov - they are not available for S&S. Surely this is similar to the Gardai last week going to work but not working the Pulse system.

However, the DES is now using the JMB and other bodies to force the issue by locking out teachers on the grounds of health & safety. By doing this the DES can then try(?) to stop paying teachers from the Monday.

What I can't understand is that the DES is willing to pay outsiders to the do the work that they have refused to pay teachers to do.

It just seems to me that ASTI had the balls to stand up and be counted by rejecting LRA and the Gov is going to great lengths to ensure that they pay dearly for that rejection (as was their right by the way)

NufcNavan

political analyst wrote: »

Carl O'Brien wrote in today's Irish Times that some ASTI members feel that they were left in the dark over the fact that withdrawal from supervision cover would lead to indefinite school closures.

If true then some teachers need to jump into reality.

km79

Asti need to come out with FACTS on what WILL happen soon
But of an information vacuum at the moment .........

Eintrachtrob

km79 wrote: »

Asti need to come out with FACTS on what WILL happen soon
But of an information vacuum at the moment .........

The ones we need clarification from are the DES.

ASTI have been more than clear - 7 strike dates announced. No S&S from 7th Nov. Can't ask for more clearer than that.

Eintrachtrob

Like another poster, I too am in on Monday 7th with the staff, although the students will not be in.

The Principal & the BoM are unsure of whether we get paid for this date.

I'm not really sure how this is going to work out.

km79

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

The ones we need clarification from are the DES.

ASTI have been more than clear - 7 strike dates announced. No S&S from 7th Nov. Can't ask for more clearer than that.

Have they sought legal advice on what will happen in the event if DES not paying staff ?
Are we likely not to be paid ?
They can provide lots more info than currently

Spiro66

student46 wrote: »

If teachers are going to be there to teach class but not due S+S can I go in to their classes and leave the school grounds for lunch or if a teacher is sick?

If teachers are there why can't I go to class? My LC is important and if teachers are saying they should be paid cause they are in the school to be able to teach why can't I go to class, I will leave the grounds for lunch break so they won't have to cover S+S.

I plan to go to school on Thrusday and will go to my classes unless the school is locked. If the teachers are there I will be in class.

Your point is valid however no teacher will stop you attending class. Boards of management, the teachers employers may prevent you attending school. Be assured that when the dispute ends your teachers will do whatever it takes to help you with your studies.

Eintrachtrob

km79 wrote: »

Have they sought legal advice on what will happen in the event if DES not paying staff ?
Are we likely not to be paid ?
They can provide lots more info than currently

They cannot provide information without it being fully correct.

I'd be highly surprised if they haven't been in contact with lawyers at this stage.

km79

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

They cannot provide information without it being fully correct.

I'd be highly surprised if they haven't been in contact with lawyers at this stage.

If they have why can't they say ?
They like the govt have had PLENTY of time to prepare for this
It's time to inform their members so we can plan out financial affairs accordingly

acequion

Well at my recent branch meeting they told us that it would be illegal for the Gov to not pay us if schools have to close due to no SnS. Im not well up on the legal ramifications but surely that would make sense? Where is this idea of not being paid coming from?

MacGyver007

In a letter to stewards issued this afternoon, ASTI members have been told to show up for work on November 7.

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/School_Steward_Information_Notice.pdf

student46

Me and our fellow students plan to go to school, if teachers are there and the school open we will go in.

km79

MacGyver007 wrote: »

ASTI members have been told to show up for work on November 7, whatever happens.

http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/School_Steward_Information_Notice.pdf

So we WONT be paid and they are CURRENTLY seeking legal advice
Sure no rush with it !!!!! Are they still seeking legal advice on challenging FEMPI too
WORRYING

evolving_doors

student46 wrote: »

Me and our fellow students plan to go to school, if teachers are there and the school open we will go in.

That's if either teacher or student gets past the locked gates!

And, if you do go in and you have an accident when there is no supervision do you think all parents in the country would be willing to sign a waiver beforehand for any claims towards the school?

For a school to decide to let you in with no supervision, they might as well as be handing you a flamethrower and telling you to have a good time. It wont happen unless there is adequate supervision. I dunno maybe the dept will be able to hire a bunch of strangers to come in (without the cooperation of the school!).

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

So we WONT be paid and they are CURRENTLY seeking legal advice
Sure no rush with it !!!!! Are they still seeking legal advice on challenging FEMPI too
WORRYING

I think this can only be tested out in the courts though (and we know how long that'd take!).

coillsaille

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

They cannot provide information without it being fully correct.

I'd be highly surprised if they haven't been in contact with lawyers at this stage.

I spoke to an SC member today. The pay docking issue is been looked at by lawyers alright.
They're trying to get a meeting held to come up with a response to the threatened pay docking but because of ongoing talks with DES and the strike day it will be Friday before that happens. They hope to get some guidance out to members before close of school that day. So I was told anyway.