political analyst wrote: » I just can't imagine that garda , nurses and junior civil servants would resent teachers being let off the CP hours because they, unlike teachers, are allowed to do productive work in those extra hours.
maude6868 wrote: » I have 5 children and one income, mine, a teacher's income and we all know what that amounts to. I have one child in University and because of my massive income, a virtual gross income, I'm not entitled to maintenance grant. If it happens that I won't be paid for a while can I apply to Social Welfare for benefits and a Christmas bonus. The Government seem very keen to look after those who can't support themselves. What they take away from me with one hand they will have to pay back with the other. I have paid taxes all my life so am I not just as entitled as those who never contribute. Sorry for the off point rant.
mirrorwall14 wrote: » 6x3 PTM = 18 HRS 3 X 2 STAFF MEETINGS = 6HRS 6X1 SUBJECT PLANNING =6HRS 6HRS PRE PLANNING IN SEPT = 6HRS OPEN NIGHT = 3 HRS GRADUATION/AWARDS/END OF YEAR = 3 HOURS 1 HOUR LEFT You are not counting correctly, The three staff meetings are half in half out so do not count for 6hrs. Similarly the same applies to some of the PT meetings. Our school doesn't get 3hrs for graduation. Other schools I know of don't get recognition for open night. In many schools, including my own, 6hrs pre planning is not done prior to the start of school. They create at least three extra evenings for us and those 6hrs (as well as the other hours from prior agreements and the one hour over) often include ridiculous speakers in one particularly memorable we had someone spent an hour 'teaching' us about a computer system but unable to answer our questions about the system, to the point the Principal ended up having to step in and answer them.
judeboy101 wrote: » Thats nothing compared to the time we had to sit in a circle and pass a stuffed toy around whilst telling each other about 3 +ive and 3 -ive things about our partner (I died a little inside that day)
Eintrachtrob wrote: » Hi all Experienced secondary teacher here. I notice the conversation on the Croke Park hours. For me, at least, these hours are the bigger picture once the LPT issue is resolved, which, in the end, it will be. As an ASTI school steward who strongly opposed voting for Croke Park (way back in 2010), I remember strongly believing that if you vote for these hours, we'll never get rid of them. The reasoning behind the hours is this: A whole plethora of QUANGOs came about during the Bertie years (which were naturally kept during the financial crisis) whose job it is to tell us how to teach, watch us, inspect us, etc. . . and extra hours were required outside the normal school term time for this to occur. The CP hours were sold to us on the basis of "wear the green jersey", but they saved nothing financially. My point is this: restoring terms and conditions of employment is as important as pay, and it's time the unions made that clear by calling for an end to CP hours.
Eintrachtrob wrote: » Well the Gardaí were effectively offered an end to their Croke Park hours by being offered the opportunity to do them in 15 minute periods before/after work. . which they rejected. I take your point though. In areas like health, money is saved. In education & policing they are a complete waste of time which generate for bad will than they're worth.
mirrorwall14 wrote: » Wow. That's particularly brutal. For me to be honest the worst is the repetitive ones, I can't count how many AFL speakers we have had over the last few years and I honestly want to stick my hand up and go, have you anything new? Or subject specific? If not why the hell are you here?
Gebgbegb wrote: » I've seen this one so often I feel like i'm stuck on a merrygoround.Attachment not found. I think the best learning comes form our colleagues. I'm probably going off topic a bit, but just in reference to the CP hours I'm surprised that the TUI accepted them. Not so much the secondary section but the Third level TUI as (to my knowledge) they had to up the lecturing hours which brought tonnes of prep/correcting work with it. Anyone on 3rd level here who can clarify how the CP works out for them?
political analyst wrote: » But the difference is that the lecturers are, in the extra hours, doing more of the work they usually do. That cannot be as bad as being stuck in pointless meetings. Why doesn't the ASTI say to the Department, "Reduce the obligation on teachers to simply being in the school in the extra hours instead of being in the same room and let meetings with inspectors take place in those hours and you might get a deal with us"?
Mardy Bum wrote: » TUI have tried this and got a small concession for subject planning rather than sitting in whole school meetings arguing I think.
man_no_plan wrote: » Ah here this waste of time unproductive work thing is nonsense. Doing necessary work when students should be in classes is unproductive. 6x3 PTM = 18 HRS 3 X 2 STAFF MEETINGS = 6HRS 6X1 SUBJECT PLANNING =6HRS 6HRS PRE PLANNING IN SEPT = 6HRS OPEN NIGHT = 3 HRS GRADUATION/AWARDS/END OF YEAR = 3 HOURS 1 HOUR LEFT Any teacher you talk yo says you need more time to plan. I don't think three hours per subject per year is excessive. I don't think one staff meeting per term is excessive (in fact we are committed to a half in half out meeting anyway) Part of the Sept meeting would be initial subject dept planning/ catching up/ updates on changes etc. Where is the room for locking 50 teachers in a room with an 'expert'?? This rhetoric about 'detention' and professionalism being undermined is wearing a bit thin. I guarantee that if policies and procedures aren't created by teachers they will not work and they will be resisted, how do you do this? I guarantee that if staff aren't 'consulted' or 'informed' they won't be happy, when do we do that? For too often the influence in schools has been held by a small cohort at the expense of the collective knowledge of the staff. You still need managers and leaders and all of that but the best asset in any school is the teaching staff. Pushing them into the machine without listening to them or letting them be part of tweaking and improving would be madness. What the CP hours have done is offered an equal role in their contribution to school life outside of their teaching. Some people nay not have taken that opportunity or may be too blinded by the bitterness of having these hours foisted on us. I know all about childcare too and everything else that goes with it. I also know that my calculations above would be more appropriate to a school with maybe 7-800 students. After we accept these hours for what they are we can see a value in them. We didn't mind giving 12 hours for money in 2004. All that's different here is that we didn't get the money. As the whole PS is doing extra hours these hours will be addressed on a PS wide basis. We will have to be paid for them or they will have to go in time admittedly. I'd sooner use them to make a school that's better run and easier to work in than to listen to a 'behaviour management' expert tell me how to solve the behaviour that could be addressed ifvwe took the time to think and talk about it.
Eintrachtrob wrote: Organisations like JMB and others may suggest ideas, but really they all follow DES policy.
Eintrachtrob wrote: » One thing you should realise is that the Dept control the JMB and the NAPD, and groups like the NPC for that matter. I'm pretty sure they fund all these organisations to keep them under their control. Remember when the ASTI rejected Croke Park/Haddington Road for a second time. The NAPD head was given the first headline with interview on RTE six one news that same day. . . to slam the teachers. Teaching/Education in Ireland is centrally controlled from Marlborough St. Organisations like JMB and others may suggest ideas, but really they all follow DES policy.
mirrorwall14 wrote: » Our school doesn't get 3hrs for graduation. Other schools I know of don't get recognition for open night. In many schools, including my own, 6hrs pre planning is not done prior to the start of school. They create at least three extra evenings for us and those 6hrs (as well as the other hours from prior agreements and the one hour over) often include ridiculous speakers
planning and development work on other than a whole-school basis
Eintrachtrob wrote: » The reasoning behind the hours is this: A whole plethora of QUANGOs came about during the Bertie years (which were naturally kept during the financial crisis) whose job it is to tell us how to teach, watch us, inspect us, etc. . . and extra hours were required outside the normal school term time for this to occur.
Eintrachtrob wrote: » One thing you should realise is that the Dept control the JMB and the NAPD, and groups like the NPC for that matter. .
Gebgbegb wrote: Well I would have thought that too until last week when the NPC and the JMB poured cold water on the governments assumption that the schools/parents would pick up the slack for organising the S&S!
feardeas wrote: » In a way this suits the dept. If schools are closed from Nov 7th then the pressure to resolve will be huge. This is all strategy and politicians and senior civil servants eat and drink strategy. Once FG can keep the independents on side and don't mind FF talking out of both sides of their mouth then they're OK. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that judges thing Shane Ross wants along with something for disabilities, thoroughly deserved, and the OPW RE flooding all appear to keep the IA on side. FF are cute, they realise there's nearly 300k other public servants that don't want to be made eeghits of. Hence the talking out of both sides. At the end of the day this is politics and we're dealing with what passes for professionals in this country.
Eintrachtrob wrote: » On the 7th November and S&S: It seems to me that Bruton is getting off scot free on this one. He has known since early July that a vote on this issue was likely. That vote was announed to take place on Sept 3. Why aren't the media asking him about the amount of time he has had since then to arrange alternatives? Bruton has already stated that he will pay the teachers, if the ASTI drop their opposition to the 33 CP hours (in other words, enter the Lansdowne Road Agreement without a ballot). An offer rightly rejected by the ASTI. Yet these new external, no experienced & unvetted supervisors are not to be asked to do Croke Park. Even more interesting is this: In January 2014 the DES issued a circular (0006/2014) in which it states that "A gross additional payment of €1,592 will be included in the Common Basic Scale for teachers in two moieties - half in the school year 2016/17, and half in the school year 2017/18". There was no reference to any future "agreement" like the LRA. This was the DES "delivering" on their promise in the Haddington Road Agreement. What happened? The LRA was invented and the DES reneged on this promise and changed the goalposts by linking S&S payment to CP hours, where the reality is that they are completely independent. Conclusion: No deal with the DES is worth the paper it's written on. So the DES want 76 hours (43 S&S hours, 33 CP hours) from teachers for a payment, in 2016/17, of €796. This works out at €10.47 per hour [I'm linking CP here with S&S, just like the DES] Yet currently on the DES there is an advert seeking external supervisors stating a "payment of €38.36 per day (based on two hours supervision minimum)" is available. That is, the DES is prepared to pay these unqualified, unvetted & no experienced people a rate of up to €19.18 per hour - nearly TWICE what they are prepared to offer us. €10.47 per hour for the professional teachers. €19.18 per hour for the "have-a-go hero" Joe Bloggs. This is what we're up against folks.
Gebgbegb wrote: » Maybe that's just the long and short of it. It's not a question of entering the Lansdowne road agreement, or not. It's a question of 'when?'. Obviously after a reballot of ASTI teachers. But then what's going to be tweeked differently for everyone to save face? My guess, it will be: /re-jkigging of CP hours /Payment of S&S (probably kick it out to next year to say the Dept. saved money this year! /More concrete timeline for restoration of pay for new entrants. So, the when... well thursday is going ahead next week regardless. Come back in December with a week of no school. Dept. will fail spectacularly in recruiting folk for S&S. ASTI go back to work the following week as a 'substantive' agreement will be on the table, and a call-off suspension of a strike pending ballot outcome.
