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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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deiseindublin

I'm sure some TUI voters only voted yes to ensure they got the s&s payment, doesn't seem fair then if it's seperated for ASTI.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm sure some TUI voters only voted yes to ensure they got the s&s payment, doesn't seem fair then if it's seperated for ASTI.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1019/825172-teachers-strike-asti/

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

Well it would limit the school closure to strike days only for a start and to be fair the ASTI shouldn't have to do it unpaid.

I think it would buy time if nothing else

deiseindublin

I'm really wondering how valid is the TUI ballot if we're voting on apples and oranges. Maybe TUI would have held firm and rejected LRA if they could have done so and still gotten their €796.

I'm grasping at straws, would just love to see any way of overturning the result.

amacca

Gebgbegb wrote: »

On the contrary, people will be dumbed down rather than wise up. Newer teachers coming through will just think of it as 'part of the job' when asked.

probably true, unfortunately

but eventually I suppose the increasing time commitments and workload will have an effect particularly as age also takes its toll

coillsaille

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm sure some TUI voters only voted yes to ensure they got the s&s payment, doesn't seem fair then if it's seperated for ASTI.

I suppose in fairness deise that it's worth remembering that the SnS payments were part of HRA and never had anything to do with LRA, until the DES connected the two things as we approached the end of HRA.
So if they finally honoured their part of the previous agreement I don't see why TUI would see it as affecting their decision to sign up to the current agreement.

km79

coillsaille wrote: »

I suppose in fairness deise that it's worth remembering that the SnS payments were part of HRA and never had anything to do with LRA, until the DES connected the two things as we approached the end of HRA.
So if they finally honoured their part of the previous agreement I don't see why TUI would see it as affecting their decision to sign up to the current agreement.

Very true actually

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

Very true actually

Who gives a flying ****about the TUI. They always cave in first. They will no doubt.benefit if we get anything. If department cave on s and s you press advantage. Stick knife further in. GOD knows they did it to us enough times.

deiseindublin

I take offense to that Mrwhite1970. I'm TUI, I'm not impressed with their Yes to LRA, I voted No, as did every other TUI member that I know. I'm totally behind the ASTI but at the end of the day TUI were told that they wouldn't get S&S if they voted No, most members didn't have the balls to vote No and see what happened but if LRA and S&S are not separated, then TUI should be looking for a reballot, or at least that's what I'd like to see.

MrJones1973

deiseindublin wrote: »

I take offense to that Mrwhite1970. I'm TUI, I'm not impressed with their Yes to LRA, I voted No, as did every other TUI member that I know. I'm totally behind the ASTI but at the end of the day TUI were told that they wouldn't get S&S if they voted No, most members didn't have the balls to vote No and see what happened but if LRA and S&S are not separated, then TUI should be looking for a reballot, or at least that's what I'd like to see.

No personal offence meant but it begs question why are you in TUI ??. You are free to join ASTI. You must know tui worse than asti for cave ins

deiseindublin

ASTI don't have negotiating rights in my school.

Millem

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

No personal offence meant but it begs question why are you in TUI ??. You are free to join ASTI. You must know tui worse than asti for cave ins

Mr white a Tui member can not switch unions now as there is a dispute on.

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

ASTI don't have negotiating rights in my school.

And they never will until at least one teacher joins, then a second......

MrJones1973

deiseindublin wrote: »

ASTI don't have negotiating rights in my school.

As far as I'm aware you can still join. I once enquiries about joining TUI in a reverse circumstance . You are still entitled to labour laws no matter what union you are in or none . If your school is like mine You can't count on staff members to press management. Once staff can hide behind a ballot they become militant at least for a while

r93kaey5p2izun

No. I ha e been rejected from membership of ASTI based on my school. Believe me, I have tried to join a number of times over the years.

Darwin

The thing I don't get is TUI members emphatically rejected the LRA on the "first go":

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/tui-members-emphatically-reject-lansdowne-road-agreement-.7652.html

Everyone I know (third level) voted no on the "second go", and in my wife's school same thing too, despite
the best efforts of the TUI executive to convince us otherwise (our local TUI branch was advising on a no vote).
One begins to wonder if the count was rigged.

deiseindublin

I really wonder at the result of the ballot Darwin. Doesn't make sense to me how such an emphatic NO can change to a two-thirds Yes.

joebloggs32

Darwin wrote: »

The thing I don't get is TUI members emphatically rejected the LRA on the "first go":

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/tui-members-emphatically-reject-lansdowne-road-agreement-.7652.html

Everyone I know (third level) voted no on the "second go", and in my wife's school same thing too, despite
the best efforts of the TUI executive to convince us otherwise (our local TUI branch was advising on a no vote).
One begins to wonder if the count was rigged.

Well to balance your spurious accusations against the integrity of the vote, almost everyone I know in my branch voted for it.

deiseindublin

Are you 2nd level joebloggs32? I've literallly not met one person that voted Yes in my (second level) circle.

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

That would solve that problem
But then the TUI...........and all the other issues

TUI signing up to LR had other concessions. They took the deal.
S&S pay is part of Haddington Road! What happened that agreement?

Darwin

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Well to balance your spurious accusations against the integrity of the vote, almost everyone I know in my branch voted for it.

Out of interest, what swung them from saying no to yes? Also, do you not find it strange that their ASTI colleagues kept their original point of view (i.e. no)? It makes no sense to me.

joebloggs32

Darwin wrote: »

Out of interest, what swung them from saying no to yes? Also, do you not find it strange that their ASTI colleagues kept their original point of view (i.e. no)? It makes no sense to me.

It was mostly in the grounds of protecting younger teachers through the ward report. Also that the TUI would be fighting for pay parity, which has been been improved.
I remember some members at a meeting saying the department wouldn't follow through on the threats, but guess what, they have.
Funnily enough this week in my school two ASTI members both told me how they voted this month. Each one voted no!

coillsaille

There are people in the ASTI who voted to accept LRA. There are people in the TUI who voted to reject. In each union a majority decided otherwise.
Regarding the Ward report being denied to ASTI members, well that's just crying out for one single court case to prove such discrimination is illegal.

joebloggs32

coillsaille wrote: »

There are people in the ASTI who voted to accept LRA. There are people in the TUI who voted to reject. In each union a majority decided otherwise.
Regarding the Ward report being denied to ASTI members, well that's just crying out for one single court case to prove such discrimination is illegal.

That's true for sure. How often do we hear of motoring offences being thrown out the courts due to a cock up in legislation. They surely haven't all their ducks perfectly lined up on this.

deiseindublin

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I remember some members at a meeting saying the department wouldn't follow through on the threats, but guess what, they have.

I don't think they would have if INTO and TUI had held it together, but we'll never know now

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Funnily enough this week in my school two ASTI members both told me how they voted this month. Each one voted no!

Nothing funny about that really, makes total sense, everybody in my staff room knows where I stand and if they did vote Yes to LRA probably wouldn't be running up to tell me.

MrJones1973

Millem wrote: »

Mr white a Tui member can not switch unions now as there is a dispute on.

I knew that but nothing to stop her from doing it last six months but perhaps unaware you could do it. Personally I will leave asti if we back out of a serious fight. Meaning no serious concessions achieved

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

There are people in the ASTI who voted to accept LRA. There are people in the TUI who voted to reject. In each union a majority decided otherwise.
Regarding the Ward report being denied to ASTI members, well that's just crying out for one single court case to prove such discrimination is illegal.

Why doesn't the ASTI encourage some of its members to take such a case? What has the ASTI got to lose? Doesn't the ASTI have lots of money, given the dues that its members pay?

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Why doesn't the ASTI encourage some of its members to take such a case? What has the ASTI got to lose? Doesn't the ASTI have lots of money, given the dues that its members pay?

I don't actually know if any ASTI member has been denied a CID due to this petty and spiteful move from the DES. Perhaps it will be at the end of this academic year before it has any effect, if it even stands that test of time. Or maybe others here know if it has actually already caused a CID refusal?

implausible

coillsaille wrote:

There are people in the ASTI who voted to accept LRA. There are people in the TUI who voted to reject. In each union a majority decided otherwise. Regarding the Ward report being denied to ASTI members, well that's just crying out for one single court case to prove such discrimination is illegal.

The Ward report is funny. The Protection of Employees Act gave us the four year CID, it came from EU legislation and is binding.

The Ward report afaik is a set of recommendations that were agreed and adopted by the Govt under HRA, so it's dodgy as to whether it's legally binding.

If the argument for not doing CP hours is because the agreement they came under is expired, then the same can be said for the Ward report and the Govt can now say that Ward comes under Lansdowne Road.

That's a take on it anyway. Someone who is more informed might have a different take on it.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Who gives a flying ****about the TUI. They always cave in first. They will no doubt.benefit if we get anything. If department cave on s and s you press advantage. Stick knife further in. GOD knows they did it to us enough times.

Many TUI members voted No; they just didn't constitute the majority of TUI membership. Furthermore, those who voted Yes may have honestly believed that it was the best deal that could be obtained. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there is no moral problem with TUI and INTO members also getting concessions that the ASTI might obtain (not to mention the constitutional aspect of course, i.e. the principle of equality).