recedite wrote: » Not even close.
expectationlost wrote: » I may generally support similar things he supports but I hate to think that the money (earned through a business based on tax avoidance) and the wishes of one man has so much influence over a government and a nation through his other (at one time secret) grants and the lobbying for the use of citizens assemblies.
aloyisious wrote: » Would you rather that the CA did not exist at all?
Labour bill aims to clamp down on rogue crisis pregnancy agencies operating in Ireland The issue of these clinics operating in Ireland was highlighted in an undercover report last month.
can we also ensure that organisations who use the term “institute” offer programmes of study and research is peer reviewed, like in other countries. We don’t want charlatans setting up private lobbying clubs and classing themselves as educational institutions.
Absolam wrote: » No? Can you explain why you imagine a random sample of individuals represents the people in any way similarly to the individuals chosen by the people as their representatives? Other than the fact that the word represent is used differently when describing both, obviously.
Absolam wrote: » attempting to limit the meaning of the word institute, maybe not so much.
Cabaal wrote: » http://www.thejournal.ie/rogue-abortion-clinics-ireland-3033842-Oct2016/ Fully support this move Also, while they are at it, perhaps they should deal with misleading name used by Lolek Ltd and other name used by Youth Defense? First comment is spot on
expectationlost wrote: » probably yes, Im a little more sympathetic to it then many, I think there is a place of deliberative democracy discussions but the way they've created here has been just too controlled from the top.
aloyisious wrote: » You think the way the names of the people randomly picked by a polling company has been controlled by the powers that be (whomever they are) to ensure they are selected to suit a purpose other than the CA was publicly set up to do, that the CA is a rigged assembly? I see the Polling Co also picked out 99 other persons as stand-ins in case any of the original 99 drop out or are de-selected.https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZ7sr-6ufPAhUHK8AKHbjzCSMQFggvMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fpolling-firm-to-choose-members-of-citizens-assembly-1.2749600&usg=AFQjCNGExUJ3YXYY48mspDTK9htzKOzKyw
recedite wrote: » They are two different ways of representing the public. The former method is used in selecting a jury, and is less open to corruption. The latter is used in selecting politicians. Career politicians are then targeted by lobbyists, whom they often serve instead of the public. Its only towards the end of their career that they feel cocky enough to give two fingers to the electorate. Barroso is a topical example of this.
expectationlost wrote: » it would been great had they done this while they were in government
robindch wrote: » The usage of many words is restricted - David Quinn has simply found one which isn't restricted in Ireland, purely so that he can sound like the high-falutin' well-respected academic institution he so dreadfully wishes that he and his dinner-party friends could be.
expectationlost wrote: » I didn't sugest any particular part of it was rigged (although I think the selection process isn't perfect), I said its a controlled process in favour of the government I think just as most people think that its delaying tactic by the them.
Absolam wrote: » I have a sneaking suspicion the reasoning goes a little further than kudos at dinner parties,
Absolam wrote: » but still, it's not unreasonable that there are Institutes which neither offer programmes of study or research, is it?
robindch wrote: » There are plenty of people running around with doctorates which they bought from diploma mills. Doesn't make them PhD-level people any more than calling yourself and your dinner-party friends an "institute" makes you an institute of learning.
robindch wrote: » Not sure if you had time to read my post. I'm saying that David Quinn and the other five or six people who make up the totality of the world's Ionanists are better thought of as a dinner party rant which has got a little out of hand.
Absolam wrote: » And... is anyone trying to make out that these particular Institutes are institutes of learning? Don't the Iona Institute style themselves as an advocacy group, an Institute for religion and society?
Ionanist wrote: The Iona Institute promotes the place of marriage and religion in society. Out starting point in debates about the family is that children deserve the love of their own mother and father whenever possible. We believe in publicily-funded denominational schools. We also promote freedom of conscience and religion.
aloyisious wrote: » So what you mean is it's the way the CA report can be controlled after the CA fulfils it's task and hands one to the Govt rather than the assembly process itself? Does your opinion include whatever ground rules within which the CA has to work, any limitations on what the CA can recommend in the report? Do you think there is any chance (pun) the other ministers you referred to are willing and aware partners in this Govt duplicity?
EK: There are not just six options. There are at least six options that could be considered. I am not going into that because it is not my remit. This is a function of the Citizens' Assembly.
robindch wrote: » Ah, I see we've joined the Absolam merry-go-round You might not have had time to read or understand my last few posts on the topic which provide an answer to your queries. Nonetheless, it does need to be said that David Quinn and his grim, gray and cheerless dinner-party friends describes their curious outfit, not really in terms of what it is - a CRO-registered company named Lolek Limited, registered here in Ireland and which also happens to be a registered charity. No, little of that, and certainly not balanced by its own pious description of itself terms of what it believes. This is perhaps, after all, appropriate to a company whose main business is in the selling not of products or services, but of the sale of beliefs.In the second (misspelled) sentence of this pious declaration, one can't help but hear the faintest echo of Animal Farm and the changes wrought by the pigs to the Seven Commandments, and wonder whether this unhappy echo might be related to any of the personal circumstances of the people involved in drafting it. In any case, the term "Institute" appears almost as an afterthought to Quinn's self-inflated, weighty deliberations. Who can tell for sure, but perhaps he enjoys the sound of the term as it rolls off the tongue. And who am I to dispute that it is a weighty-sounding word, redolent of the corridors of academe, marmalade and toast over tea at ten, perhaps a whiff or two of pipe-smoke and the unmistakable sense of people dressed in brown tweed, or perhaps orange, or some admixture of the two.
Ionanists wrote: We believe in publicily-funded denominational schools. We also promote freedom of conscience and religion.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Denominational schooling is the opposite of freedom of conscience and religion. It is enforced conformity to enforced (outward) belief. Getting the taxpayer to fund these abuses just makes it worse.
aloyisious wrote: » Does what you wrote above mean you believe that the Iona Institute is not there to advance society in general, that it's purpose has absolutely nothing to do with societal advancement? How can an institute styling itself as an advocacy group for society fulfil that role if it does NOT assist the society it is a part of to advance in knowledge?
aloyisious wrote: » Just seen this in today's online issue of the Irish Times...... An honest gent.http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/citizens-assembly-member-replaced-over-role-with-pro-choice-group-1.2838626
Independent TD Mattie McGrath said the incident raised a number of issues around the process used to select members of the assembly.
