acequion wrote: » Pigs really are flying tonight. The above emboldened is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard. Senior managers taking "massive" pay cuts! As if!! Such a wild statement absolutely has to be backed up with concrete evidence so could we have it please!
griffzinho wrote: » If there is any example of how one is wasting their time on this forum it is this post.http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-responds-to-government-announcement-on-new-teachers-pay/ "The ASTI today said it is campaigning for the full restoration of new teachers’ pay" It is restoration. Give it up. Anyway I'm out again. Will respond if anyone can tell me where the money is going to come from for all these 'pay claims' That information I would be very interested in. Quantify it though please. As for everyone celebrating going on strike I hope you fully realise the consequences of holding our Government to ransom. I am in the 20% minority that voted for no industrial action so maybe I am wrong. I certainly don't feel that way, but maybe I am. Time will tell.
oppenheimer1 wrote: » Yes, the managers in an office I used to work for took 66% pay cut. Junior staff had to take 20%. Wasn't uncommon during the recession. In many companies during the recession 2008-2011 you had directors not taking wages so they would have cash to pay wages to their staff.
Gebgbegb wrote: » holding our Government to ransom.... Where'd TD's find the money for their pay rises?
amacca wrote: » Its interesting the way you pick and choose who/what you will respond to.
acequion wrote: » Don't waste your time,amacca. The arrogance there is breathtaking.
griffzinho wrote: » I read your post. Here is the information you require quantified by the TUI.http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Pay%20Parity%20Breakthrough%20QA%20FINAL%2026Sept.pdf Scroll to page 5 please. I don't think increments (which are currently 'paused' for ASTI) are included but I welcome correction.
acequion wrote: » You'd have to wonder though what will the resolution be. Will we end up in that goddamned Landsdowne Road? I hear Bruton on six one harping on about flexibility on the CP hours.Having done this first term without those awful hours there is just no way I ever want to see them back! I'm an older teacher, still full of enthusiasm and motivation but find the job is full enough as is.And then there's the new JC. Personally I'm ok with a new course but not with CBAs and SLARs. So there are many battles and the DES have already made it clear to the ASTI negotiators that they want everything resolved this time in one settlement. So what will that settlement look like?
oppenheimer1 wrote: » I really hope you're not a teacher, or indeed let within an asses roar of a classroom.
feardeas wrote: » Things seem to have escalated. On here at any rate. To start I'm one of the minority as I've said before but for some life might be too short to read through posts. Just a few crumbs: That nonsense of equating salary to the months we work. We get paid an annual salary. The vast majority of us work hard and we get paid that salary, assuming we are in such positions, over the twelve months. The holidays are undeniably good but the CAO was there for everyone and begrudgery is far from an appealing trait. The banks, developers etc were all part of this great efficient private sector that we have. They are the ones who landed us in the mess we were in. Also when it comes to efficiency try ringing the likes of Vodafone/BOI after you have pressed God knows how many numbers. You can not teach by pressing numbers. That kind of nonsense will be plentiful. I thought teaching was easy until I took my first class in my Dip year back in 03. I got some land, now years later I can forget what it was like but let me tell anyone that the difference between teaching and being a pupil is night and day. I go to a GP from time to time, I have the experience of being a patient. I bring my car to a mechanic, I go to get my hair cut. Doing all those things gives me experience of being dealt with in that field it does not make me qualified or able to be a doctor/mechanic/barber. Having being a pupil or indeed being the parent of pupils does not qualify one to teach. I did not sell anyone out. We accepted Croke Park because it protected us from future cuts. Most assumed that the protection would extend to new entrants. Anyway that line is now redundant because this strike is for those. Now as far as the situation is concerned. I voted against both because I do not believe the resources exist to establish full parity or to restore wages in one go. If they did the government would have managed more than a fiver in the budget. That was my reasoning. I fail to see where a solution might be found unless some timeframe can be agreed for restoration but that surely would have to be dependent on economic events and nobody knows what Brexit will bring. I am also fearful of the money that will be lost in salary. It looks like at least two days from most cheques in November and indeed December. I don't mean to be churlish but that is the reality of my context. I won't be on the breadline but a week's wages is a week's wages. The nice people I owe my mortgage and car loan to won't knock a week off the bill. While I'm not sure how it can be resolved I'm sure it will be. The decision to go out for 7 days makes it a certainty. Every IR dispute is solved eventually. The more strident members of the union know that also. The leadership do. This is what they have been building towards for years. They have the mandate, they have taken the decision. It will be implemented. This is a high stakes game, many of us, myself included, have not been involved in a prolonged dispute before. From looking at comments on the VFT forum on facebook it seems as if there is euphoria among quite a few teachers that this has happened. It's a bit like the garden parties that were being held as WW1 broke out. The stakes, as I said are high. The leadership have a mandate, helped by their recommendation. They were well within their rights. I think they now have an awesome responsibility in working towards a resolution that will address the legitimate concerns while at the same time seeking to ensure that morale and collegiality will not be too badly damaged. I hope they are able for the task, I don't agree with it but for all our sake and our students I hope they are.
griffzinho wrote: » Very poor. Particularly from a mod. Quantify the figures please. * How much will/would the TD's pay rise cost the state? * How much would a potential unraveling of the LRA cost the state? The two figures are strikingly incomparable. TD's giving themselves a raise is an entirely different issue. It is totally wrong.Stop dragging me back in again with completely obscure/rubbish posts. G'night.
oppenheimer1 wrote: » Its a bit of whataboutery and I do think politicians should lead by example when it comes to pay restraint however: There are 158 TD's, and there are no increments. There are 88,184 teachers, each of whom get an increase in annual wages of approx €1300 per year for the first 10 years of their career.
oppenheimer1 wrote: » I just want to correct you on a few points. It was not the bank bailout that led to the crash and all the cuts that had to be faced. What actually happened was the government decided to oncrease welfare and public sector wages on the back of tax receipts from the construction industry. When the construction bubble collapsed, The government found a 20bn hole in its annual finances and found no one was willing to lend to it at an affordable rate. This is kind of off topic, but its important that we all understand how we got here - previous lack of wage restraint on a very narrow tax base. Peoples attitude to teachers is coloured by the system we all went through. Speak to an older person about school and they'll tell you about the madman that used to beat the ****e out of children. Speak to a younger person and they'll be able to tell you of a few useless teachers they encountered -and how these people managed to get away doing so little for so long. I don't think its all begrudgery, but a frustration with a system that very much tolerates poor performance and has always done so. If the unions offered easy removal of poorly performing teachers in exchange for parity I would bet it would get a sympathetic hearing from the public. I have to disagree on your point on CP as well. The union voted for it and the measures undertaken in it weren't really challenged in HR. Protecting yourself at the expense of someone else is the definition of selling out - existing teachers sold out their future colleagues. The opportunity for a single scale was there at the time but that would have meant pay cuts. I do agree that the states finances aren't robust enough to make the award and the LRA is probably the only show in town. The government will have to take on the union here as the cost of LRA falling apart would throw the public finances into chaos. I've a feeling this is one thats going to run for a while.
griffzinho wrote: » Oppenheimer. You are wasting your time here as most posters won't acknowledge the fact that the taxpayer (us) cannot afford to pay the entire public sector the full restoration amounts that are being sought. The LRA will come crashing down if the Govt gives in to ASTI. Same with the Gardai. Everyone is conscious that pay discrimination is wrong (even Bruton/Govt,etc) but restoration has to be at an affordable rate. We are only just coming out of a major recession and barring FDI inspired growth, the real economy is still fragile. The two x €1,000 increases for NQT's agreed by TUI and INTO are reasonable and affordable and coupled with increments (approx €1,500), and LRA benefits such as the S&S substitution payments (approx €1,500) and the €1,000 addition for all LRA teachers amounts to nearly €6,000 throughout the duration of LRA. That is a nearly 20% rise in pay during the LRA for a post 2011/2012 teacher during the lifetime of this agreement. That (for me) is a reasonable start. If anyone cares to quantify in hard figures where the money will come from to pay for immediate restoration then I would be more than interested. As for holding the Govt to ransom by this striking madness I am actually ashamed and bewildered. We are all citizens of this country and it's long term financial stability is in all our best interests. If anyone wants to argue this point, please do not respond without hard figures as to where the money will come from. Kieran Christie certainly couldn't do it on Newstalk today. His interview was an embarrassment.
km79 wrote: » stopped reading posts here early last night as it became infected with the After Hours teacher bashing brigade. Having thought about it more I think SC have been VERY smart in this. One strike day before break and the s and s directive not kicking in till first day after is smart. It shows we are serious but at the same time there is likely to be talks over the mud term and the threat of with drawal of s and s first day back will help focus minds at said meetings . Now it's the 7 days of proposes strikes imo where they have been very smart. Obviously this is a big threat to the govt BUT I also feel they are putting a bit of pressure on the membership too! If they come back with a "deal" it is likely to be more readily accepted by members not wanting to lose a week's wages before Xmas.............so minds are focussed now on all sides. This brings me to my final point ..........what kind of a deal do we expect or accept? It. ant just be LRA lite.....but it won't be too far from it or the govt risk opening the floodgates . in my opinion any deal MUST include 1. Proper pay equalisation for LPTs 2. Provision for payment of S and S 3. No attempt to bring back CP hours some movement on POR would also be desirable I don't think any reduction in pension levy (pay restoration ) is realistic tbh I'll be honest I don't and never have had a massive problem with s and s . In my opinion the supervision aspect of it anyway is something that I do voluntarily every day as I like to have a wander and a chat with the students at one of the breaks. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think it really is a basic requirement of a teacher .......the subbing of course is a diff story but as someone involved in extra curricular I also understand the demands on. schools from this pov. So if we even got the 800 a year I'd see it as a bonus . Again not a popular opinion I suppose. Now the CP hours are a diff story. They are my "red line issue" . They serve NO PURPOSEThey don't save money . They are demoralising. I will not sign up to any agreement they form part of. what do ye think ?
joebloggs32 wrote: » If you (Asti) do make any deal, point 2 is already covered. Point 3 was dealt with in the budget. Posts will start to return next September and extra DPs for larger schools. Croke park hours will never be fully scrapped, but could eventually be further modified or reduced. However point 1 will be the problem. I cant see them really going much further than the INTO/TUI deal at present. At best will be promise to continue restoration after the LRA expires. All the while you guys still have the problem of the junior cycle dispute going on.
km79 wrote: » LRA lite with lots of promises to be honoured in 12/24 months time ........just like before Would not vote for that
coillsaille wrote: » That's it exactly. How can we accept promises when the DES has proven it doesn't keep them. The SnS payments were promised under HRA and nowhere in that agreement was there any mention of those payments being contingent on us accepting the next agreement. So on the one hand, it's very hard to see how the inferior pay scales can be scrapped immediately but on the other hand how can the union sell a deal to it's members that is based on promises to scrap them. That's going to be the key issue in resolving this dispute. The other issues are much easier to sort out. Re SnS we were quite happy to keep doing it as long as we got the HRA payments. So all they have to do is give us what was agreed. With CP hours I think most members would accept 5 PTMs per year and one staff meeting per term but that's it.( Subject meetings were always something that took place informally in my school, often as a working lunch, before the CPA and should continue that way.) If the DES can be reasonable enough to accept that then that issue is easily resolved. But the LPT issue is the difficult one and in my opinion it wouldn't be so if the DES hadn't shown that they can't be trusted to keep promises.
jayo76 wrote: » Also I really dont want us to enter an agreement which prevents any industrial action and hence an acceptance of Junior Cert. I would love a reform of Junior Cert curriculum in my subject but and I will not outline them here i have major concerns about the reforms as they stand.
shopper2011 wrote: » Lansdown Road Agreement (LRA) expires in 2018. A mere 14 months it will be 2018. I can see this industrial dispute dragging on till then. It will be cheaper for the gov to pay supervisors rather than throw out the LRA. The union collective of INTO/ASTI/TUI and dept of ed&sci, Finace and public expenditure will be inevitably entering discussions sometime in advance of this LRA ending. I predict nothing exceptional coming out of this induatrial action and the normal course of talks taking place in advance of one agreement ending and beginning of a new one in 2018. The ASTI may well claim some form of success in 2018, however this is untrue as long as they remain outside the collective.
