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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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oppenheimer1

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I must have missed the part when our teachers ran the country off the economic cliff....
Oh wait, we didn't.

We were asked to tighten our belts and take the pain "for the national good", and we did.

We cannot stand idly by as our colleagues are subjected to 20% les pay for doing the same work.

I'm afraid you did a couple of years ago. Instead of allowing cuts across the board, you threw the newly qualified teachers under the bus to protect yourselves.

Solidarity, me arse.

acequion

Folks, don't waste your energies engaging with this individual. This is precisely the sort of misinformed ignorant bull shyte which will be hurled at us from anyone who just wants to have a go,the typical "I hate teachers,just because" brigade. We don't have to justify our actions to them.

So let's keep the heads down and get on with what we have the do. The ignore button is very handy here,it won't always be so easy.

Benicetomonty

kerryguy78 wrote: »

Anyway shouldn't public service workers salaries be a reflection of performance because some public servants aren't worth minimum wage

Different argument for another day. If you dont accept that the vast vast majority of teachers (as in any profession) are competent, work hard and are deserving of a fair wage, esp with a job that I believe to be of significance, then I think youre being incredibly unfair.

kerryguy78

tayto lover wrote: »

How do you explain the TD's getting their wage restored by 5K then?
I'll wait for your answer.

Totally and utterly disgraceful I totally agree with you.

kerryguy78

Benicetomonty wrote: »

THEY broke an agreement (Haddington Rd), not us. How can you expect any intelligent union to sign up to an agreement when the other party have shown themselves to be unwilling to honour a prior agreement?! Ridiculous.

Anyway shouldn't public service workers salaries be a reflection of performance because some public servants aren't worth minimum wage

km79

Checks posting history .........After Hours regular......adds to ignore list

tayto lover

kerryguy78 wrote: »

You are right ye didn't but when yer employer is broke ye have to suffer, yer colleagues are getting 20% less because ye were getting over hyped salaries for less than 8 months work!!!!

How do you explain the TD's getting their wage restored by 5K then?
I'll wait for your answer.

kerryguy78

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I must have missed the part when our teachers ran the country off the economic cliff....
Oh wait, we didn't.

We were asked to tighten our belts and take the pain "for the national good", and we did.

We cannot stand idly by as our colleagues are subjected to 20% les pay for doing the same work.

You are right ye didn't but when yer employer is broke ye have to suffer, yer colleagues are getting 20% less because ye were getting over hyped salaries for less than 8 months work!!!!

Benicetomonty

kerryguy78 wrote: »

So there is a few quid back in the coffers so let's all jump on the wagon and grab grab grab, this country will never change as long as there is unions holding the country to ransom

THEY broke an agreement (Haddington Rd), not us. How can you expect any intelligent union to sign up to an agreement when the other party have shown themselves to be unwilling to honour a prior agreement?! Ridiculous.

Inspector Coptoor

kerryguy78 wrote: »

So there is a few quid back in the coffers so let's all jump on the wagon and grab grab grab, this country will never change as long as there is unions holding the country to ransom

I must have missed the part when our teachers ran the country off the economic cliff....
Oh wait, we didn't.

We were asked to tighten our belts and take the pain "for the national good", and we did.

We cannot stand idly by as our colleagues are subjected to 20% les pay for doing the same work.

tayto lover

kerryguy78 wrote: »

So there is a few quid back in the coffers so let's all jump on the wagon and grab grab grab, this country will never change as long as there is unions holding the country to ransom

I could tell you a few scary stories about working in places where there were no unions.
Be careful of what you wish for.

kerryguy78

So there is a few quid back in the coffers so let's all jump on the wagon and grab grab grab, this country will never change as long as there is unions holding the country to ransom

Benicetomonty

Nice soundbite from Ed Byrne on the news, indicating how there was zero mention of any restoration in the LRA before the original rejection from teacher's unions. Will just have to use their imagination like they did a few months ago!

km79

Can't be accused of not standing with LPTs now
Expect a lot of whingeing when the reality of thi hits home in pre Xmas pay
I actually think this may speed up acceptance of any deal that will be offered .....

coillsaille

Good move to lay out that many strike days. Not so sure about holding off on the SnS withdrawal until Nov 7th, seems a bit generous but that's the decision so we'll go with it.

dg647

Great news. Well done ASTI.

chocoholic999

I wasn't expecting them to announce seven days of strike. Well done to ASTI

wolfyboy555

7 days strike and withdrawal from S and S from Nov 7th. First strike day Oct 27th.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1014/823944-asti/

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

The Irish Times said

Ah yes, I can see where you went wrong.

evolving_doors

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Surely we should be getting paid for S and S if they want us to do it until suitable replacements can be found. Otherwise we are mugs if we continue to do it.

That would be too straightforward.

Iused2likebusts

Surely we should be getting paid for S and S if they want us to do it until suitable replacements can be found. Otherwise we are mugs if we continue to do it.

political analyst

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-leaders-plead-for-solution-as-row-threatens-school-closures-425723.html

As well as the threat of school closures if ASTI’s 18,000 members stop doing supervision and substitution before plans to hire replacement staff are finalised, which could take seven weeks, strike days are also likely in an effort to get all teachers hired after 2011 on equal pay with longer- serving colleagues.

The Irish Times said it would take 3 weeks at most to get external personnel fro S&S vetted. Why does the Examiner say it will be longer than that?

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im not sure what your point is ? Not all management these days are Asti. But even if they are they carry out their jobs. They don't really do s and s. They organize it. Nothing will Change that. NAPD is a bastard child of the department. Same for JMB. Neither reconises the other as family but they are family

coillsaille had a scenario in which LC students would be there 3 days a week and JC students 2 days a week under management supervision but those managers, i.e. principals and deputy principals, who are ASTI members would still have to adhere to the directive ordering withdrawal from S&S like all other members. That's my point.

acequion

Lord TSC wrote: »

This was a great post. Lads and lasses, the sad fact is that there's already a massive amount of people who don't like teachers; "overpaid, too many holidays, blah blah". You're never going to win these people round to understanding the issues teachers face, you're never going to win the PR battle. The people who hate teachers already hate teachers.

At some point, ye need to accept this and realise, as the bus drivers did, as the Luas drivers did...the first priority should be about making conditions the best they can be for the teachers. Not caring about what other people think. I say this as someone who trained as a teacher and ultimately had to abandon the profession because there was more focus on maintaining good PR than there was on fighting for the rights of the NQT; as someone who watched 90% of the people I trained with either leave the country or leave the profession. Intelligent people with new ideas, who joined the profession cause they wanted to teach...these are the people ye should be grabbing hold of and holding on tightly to.

Forget public perception. Teachers have the real power. If schools strike, the country shuts down. It's time to use that power to improve conditions for teachers, which in turn will improve conditions for students as well (the industry needs the best and brightest, not to be chasing them away to other jobs/countries). Stop fighting the PR battle. It's the wrong one to be fighting.

Thank you so much for that excellent post.It's people like you who should be on six one and in the national media telling the public the real story. That we are chasing away the very kind of people we need to educate the young. But I don't think that will hit home until,like with the nurses,there is a shortage of teachers. Right now we're in over supply which is one reason for the shoddy treatment.

Completely agree that our first priority should be the working conditions. You need happy,motivated, decently paid teachers for a good education system. The current situation where so many teachers feel embittered, resentful,powerless, overwhelmed and exhausted cannot continue as it will ultimately take its toll on everybody, to the detriment of education. So we have to be single minded in our campaign and stop worrying about what people think of us.

I personally couldn't care less what the ignorant think, those who hate teachers just for the sake of it, or what the arrogant think, the Michael O Leary's, Ediie Hobbs of this world who like to keep workers "in their place" as it ensures elitism. But I do care what decent people think and I want them to know the real truth and the real facts so good PR from our union is important. But even without it we still must do whatever we have to.

Thank you again.

acequion

clunked wrote: »

Your last sentence there is offensive.

Would be inclined to agree but the poster does have a point. We need strong, articulate people to get the facts out there and to clear up the misinformation.Up to now that PR presence has simply not been there, hence the sheer amount of rubbish that gets reported.

coillsaille

The media inaccuracies continue. Now according to the RTE news website, the withdrawal of SnS is in support of LPTs.

mirrorwall14

I'm so proud of the ASTI and I wish I was out there with you. The very best of luck.

For me what I'd like the TUI to have held out for:

1. 5 PT Meetings a year. 4 staff meetings (one per term). 4 thirty minute subject meetings (one per term) and no other croke park hours. They are the ones that help run the school. The others are not necessary in my opinion and have helped create the level of anger currently being seen.

2. Proper restoration of NQT pay. Even if it was over several years, it should have put everyone back on exactly the same scale by the end of it

3. S and S should be optional AND paid. Bringing it in and not allowing the opt out (and financially penalising people to take it) has created a huge level of backlash against it. In addition the increase in the number of hours you have to be available for has made it exhausting.

4. The Junior Cycle needs proper CPD. The day we had last year was an absolute joke and I've heard that this years will be too. There are no syllabi for most subjects so we have no idea what we have agreed to. I'm not a huge fan of the one internal one external assessment but I can live with it

km79

Richard Bruton reckons we have breached LRA by holding the ballot .
Am one problem there Minister ...........

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

Much and all as I agree with most of what you say,Mrwhite, I feel that you're being a tad OTT here and I have often seen you being conciliatory on other issues.

Up to now we have actually acted in a way that is beyond reproach. We've honoured all commitments and taken the proper channels.So waiting a few weeks to ensure that all angles are covered won't do us any harm here. Granted the media hate us and personally there's no love lost as far as i'm concerned but at the end of the day we're teachers, not bus drivers for all I agree with their stance. We're in a caring profession so we do need to show good faith. After that let the war break out!

Caring profession get walked over because of the media perception of what it means to be caring. Is a literacy initiative without books caring? Is a dumbed down JC caring? Lets see what happens -NOV 7th is notice enough anything later is BS.

Lord TSC

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Disputes are not about PR. Teachers worry too much about media. Bus worker's hit hard quickly . You delay you allow department to get its act together. Typical teachers afraid of their shadow! Maximum pain brings results. We ain't going on a picnic . The media hate us. Accept that. You will lose the little public support we have quickly. Its about maximum pissing your employer off asap

This was a great post. Lads and lasses, the sad fact is that there's already a massive amount of people who don't like teachers; "overpaid, too many holidays, blah blah". You're never going to win these people round to understanding the issues teachers face, you're never going to win the PR battle. The people who hate teachers already hate teachers.

At some point, ye need to accept this and realise, as the bus drivers did, as the Luas drivers did...the first priority should be about making conditions the best they can be for the teachers. Not caring about what other people think. I say this as someone who trained as a teacher and ultimately had to abandon the profession because there was more focus on maintaining good PR than there was on fighting for the rights of the NQT; as someone who watched 90% of the people I trained with either leave the country or leave the profession. Intelligent people with new ideas, who joined the profession cause they wanted to teach...these are the people ye should be grabbing hold of and holding on tightly to.

Forget public perception. Teachers have the real power. If schools strike, the country shuts down. It's time to use that power to improve conditions for teachers, which in turn will improve conditions for students as well (the industry needs the best and brightest, not to be chasing them away to other jobs/countries). Stop fighting the PR battle. It's the wrong one to be fighting.