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2017-21 help to buy scheme - megathread. All help to buy discussion here please

PedroDublin

Hello everyone, what do you think the purchase date mean on the new help to buy scheme? Contracts signed by buyers, contracts received, mortgage withdrawal, closing date..... I have seen different things on different news

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Michael D Not Higgins

BailMeOut wrote: »

does first time buyer mean first time buyer in Ireland or anywhere. I bought a home a long time ago in USA while living there so would I qualify?

Probably not, and not declaring it during the mortgage application could amount to tax fraud. There's some ambiguity on the definition of first time buyer but it always means worldwide.

For example, the mortgage lending rules consider a first time buyer as one who has not had a mortgage before. Therefore, if you bought a house outright or inherited without a mortgage, you still qualify.

The Revenue definition sometimes includes people who bought a house during a marriage which has subsequently dissolved and they have no legal interest in the house anymore.

This scheme says you're not a first time buyer if you have purchased a house before. I expect the Finance Bill will be more thorough in the definitions.

Itchap3

Here's a real example of how this system is not going to work.

A new development I'm familiar with in Dublin. Prices in the last phase (6 months ago) were 410-430 for a 3 bed house. A new phase launching this weekend and prices were just released today (conveniently). 3 beds now from 425-450. So you can forget about it being a scheme to help first time buyers. It's an incentive to developers to build more houses and increase supply. Nothing more. It'll help first time buyers get a house in the sense that it'll help them overcome the deposit requirements, however they won't be 20,000 better off as some seem to think.

awec

Itchap3 wrote: »

Here's a real example of how this system is not going to work.

A new development I'm familiar with in Dublin. Prices in the last phase (6 months ago) were 410-430 for a 3 bed house. A new phase launching this weekend and prices were just released today (conveniently). 3 beds now from 425-450. So you can forget about it being a scheme to help first time buyers. It's an incentive to developers to build more houses and increase supply. Nothing more. It'll help first time buyers get a house in the sense that it'll help them overcome the deposit requirements, however they won't be 20,000 better off as some seem to think.

Nobody thinks they will be 20 grand better off. That's not the point.

The point is exactly to get people over the deposit requirements and to make it more financially worthwhile for builders. Not to make people capable of affording houses they wouldn't otherwise able to afford.

Itchap3

I know of one person personally who signed contracts in May and getting keys next month who is now devastated as he had planned to use the money to furnish his house. I'm sure he's not the only one who had this idea.

68 lost souls

Itchap3 wrote: »

Here's a real example of how this system is not going to work.

A new development I'm familiar with in Dublin. Prices in the last phase (6 months ago) were 410-430 for a 3 bed house. A new phase launching this weekend and prices were just released today (conveniently). 3 beds now from 425-450. So you can forget about it being a scheme to help first time buyers. It's an incentive to developers to build more houses and increase supply. Nothing more. It'll help first time buyers get a house in the sense that it'll help them overcome the deposit requirements, however they won't be 20,000 better off as some seem to think.

That's not down to this that is just how new developments work.

Development we bought in was 332,500 for 3 bed in March in Phase 1 and Jumped to 360,000 in phase two in start of September

REFLINE1

Itchap3 wrote: »

Here's a real example of how this system is not going to work.

A new development I'm familiar with in Dublin. Prices in the last phase (6 months ago) were 410-430 for a 3 bed house. A new phase launching this weekend and prices were just released today (conveniently). 3 beds now from 425-450. So you can forget about it being a scheme to help first time buyers. It's an incentive to developers to build more houses and increase supply. Nothing more. It'll help first time buyers get a house in the sense that it'll help them overcome the deposit requirements, however they won't be 20,000 better off as some seem to think.

which development is this you refer to?

ted1

Itchap3 wrote: »

Here's a real example of how this system is not going to work.

A new development I'm familiar with in Dublin. Prices in the last phase (6 months ago) were 410-430 for a 3 bed house. A new phase launching this weekend and prices were just released today (conveniently). 3 beds now from 425-450. So you can forget about it being a scheme to help first time buyers. It's an incentive to developers to build more houses and increase supply. Nothing more. It'll help first time buyers get a house in the sense that it'll help them overcome the deposit requirements, however they won't be 20,000 better off as some seem to think.

That's how the system has always worked , the 2nd and 3rd phases always go up

Itchap3

Strange how they waited until today to announce pricing though.

Michael D Not Higgins

Itchap3 wrote: »

Strange how they waited until today to announce pricing though.

Plenty of other developments in the last few months have also launched the pricing for their extended phases with higher prices. It's easy to point at the next development to announce prices and say, "see?"

bleary

Itchap3 wrote: »

I know of one person personally who signed contracts in May and getting keys next month who is now devastated as he had planned to use the money to furnish his house. I'm sure he's not the only one who had this idea.

He signed and agreed to buy a property before this was even flagged
He had no idea how much any scheme flagged in July would be worth
He had no idea what the conditions were
How is he devastated that some free money he was not aware of until yesterday is now not coming down the tracks.
Presumably he had some plan in May how he was going to furnish the house he agreed to buy?
I would have much more sympathy for someone who had bought a new property with a deposit greater than 20% , they are being penalised for fiscal responsibility.

P.S He needs to learn the real meaning of devastation.

garbo196

I am absolutely gutted with the outcome of yesterday. Myself and my girlfriend bought a house off the plans back in April. We signed the contracts in May on our side, and the builder's solicitors signed on their side on July 15th. We do not qualify for the tax rebate since the contracts were signed before 19th July. We missed out on this by 4 days.
What annoys me the most is the fact that we have only signed contracts, we have not bought a house, it is not ours, we have not drawn down any money, anything could happen between now and then.
It should vbe backdated to July 19th for those who have actually drawn down and bought a house and who the keys.

4 days short of getting 15k to furnish our first home.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an appeal for this? Should I contact any local TDs or anything? We both have been working full time for the last 4 years and have paid well enough tax. Its sickening. And I am sure we are not the only ones in this position,

[Deleted User]

garbo196 wrote: »

I am absolutely gutted with the outcome of yesterday. Myself and my girlfriend bought a house off the plans back in April. We signed the contracts in May on our side, and the builder's solicitors signed on their side on July 15th. We do not qualify for the tax rebate since the contracts were signed before 19th July. We missed out on this by 4 days.
What annoys me the most is the fact that we have only signed contracts, we have not bought a house, it is not ours, we have not drawn down any money, anything could happen between now and then.
It should vbe backdated to July 19th for those who have actually drawn down and bought a house and who the keys.

4 days short of getting 15k to furnish our first home.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an appeal for this? Should I contact any local TDs or anything? We both have been working full time for the last 4 years and have paid well enough tax. Its sickening. And I am sure we are not the only ones in this position,

Its sickening but they have to draw the line somewhere and it will always mean people are disappointed. Back date it to the start of June and people who singed in May will complain. Back date it to the start of the year and people who bought in December will complain etc.

Shedite27

garbo196 wrote: »

I am absolutely gutted with the outcome of yesterday. Myself and my girlfriend bought a house off the plans back in April. We signed the contracts in May on our side, and the builder's solicitors signed on their side on July 15th. We do not qualify for the tax rebate since the contracts were signed before 19th July. We missed out on this by 4 days.
What annoys me the most is the fact that we have only signed contracts, we have not bought a house, it is not ours, we have not drawn down any money, anything could happen between now and then.
It should vbe backdated to July 19th for those who have actually drawn down and bought a house and who the keys.

4 days short of getting 15k to furnish our first home.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an appeal for this? Should I contact any local TDs or anything? We both have been working full time for the last 4 years and have paid well enough tax. Its sickening. And I am sure we are not the only ones in this position,

You didn't have €15k yesterday, you don't have €15k today.

Lost nothing.

quadrifoglio verde

ted1 wrote: »

That's how the system has always worked , the 2nd and 3rd phases always go up

Except when there's to much supply.

Then you get it less than phase 1.

This is partly designed to help people circumvent central bank rules is it not?
What's to stop the central bank from altering the rules to take into account this new move from government?

AtomicHorror

Shedite27 wrote: »

You didn't have €15k yesterday, you don't have €15k today.

Lost nothing.

I think most of us who were on the line understand this fact, and even recognise that feeling disappointed is not rational. It does not make that feeling magically disappear, nor does it mean people shouldn't express it.

The announcement back in July was vague enough to give reasonable hope to plenty of people who would not ultimately benefit. When you've recently bought a house, money looms large in your life, perhaps even more so than it did in the challenging time before you bought. Lot of worry. You probably know this. When a chance at relief does not pan out, disappointment is entirely understandable. Give us a break.

CT2

I've asked my bank this today, but any advice in the interim would be great.

Can you draw down a mortgage of 15% deposit plus the 5% from your Tax to make 80% this side of January 2017 as I plan to close next month.
or
Can you draw down a mortgage with 20% and then claim the tax back next year or would this put you over the 20% limit.
Could I borrow the 5% shortfall to achieve this for the new year.

The bank will give you a better interest if you have a LTV of 80%. But will you get this if its 15% in November and the 5% in the new year.

awec

CT2 wrote: »

I've asked my bank this today, but any advice in the interim would be great.

Can you draw down a mortgage of 15% deposit plus the 5% from your Tax to make 80% this side of January 2017 as I plan to close next month.
or
Can you draw down a mortgage with 20% and then claim the tax back next year or would this put you over the 20% limit.
Could I borrow the 5% shortfall to achieve this for the new year.

The bank will give you a better interest if you have a LTV of 80%. But will you get this if its 15% in November and the 5% in the new year.

My understanding would be you get a mortgage with 20% now and then claim back the money next year.

Konata

Does the money HAVE to go towards a deposit? We are limited by the 3.5 income multiplier and have saved hard to put together the money to make up the rest of the balance - right now we are looking at an 85% LTV. If we add on the money from the tax rebate we are going to be at 79% LTV - so then we wouldn't be entitled to the rebate?? So could we just keep the rebate for furnishing etc.?

Reading back over that, I'm also wondering is the limit 80% LTV BEFORE you take into account the tax rebate or AFTER? That would be the key question for us I think (as all would be fine if it is before the rebate is counted).

Shedite27

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I think most of us who were on the line understand this fact, and even recognise that feeling disappointed is not rational. It does not make that feeling magically disappear, nor does it mean people shouldn't express it.

The announcement back in July was vague enough to give reasonable hope to plenty of people who would not ultimately benefit. When you've recently bought a house, money looms large in your life, perhaps even more so than it did in the challenging time before you bought. Lot of worry. You probably know this. When a chance at relief does not pan out, disappointment is entirely understandable. Give us a break.

I wasn't attacking, I was trying to be a voice of reason. I'm a buyer of a new build in May that would have been eligible had I closed today.

I hope nobody bought expecting some money back.

Congrats to those that will get the money, who cares if you didn't get it. Yes I'd like €20k back in a rebate, but it wasn't money I was expecting. It's like being disappointed that you didn't win the lotto tonight.

AtomicHorror

Shedite27 wrote: »

I wasn't attacking, I was trying to be a voice of reason. I'm a buyer of a new build in May that would have been eligible had I closed today.

Fair enough, and if that's your meaning then no problem. Most people's initial reaction will not be so rational, so they might read your response and others here as dismissive.

Shedite27 wrote: »

Congrats to those that will get the money, who cares if you didn't get it. Yes I'd like €20k back in a rebate, but it wasn't money I was expecting. It's like being disappointed that you didn't win the lotto tonight.

I don't think these two things are alike at all, for many reasons. But your point was already clear enough. We have "lost" something we never had. That fact will help people in hindsight, but their initial reaction will tend to be disappointment.

ted1

garbo196 wrote: »

I am absolutely gutted with the outcome of yesterday. Myself and my girlfriend bought a house off the plans back in April. We signed the contracts in May on our side, and the builder's solicitors signed on their side on July 15th. We do not qualify for the tax rebate since the contracts were signed before 19th July. We missed out on this by 4 days.
What annoys me the most is the fact that we have only signed contracts, we have not bought a house, it is not ours, we have not drawn down any money, anything could happen between now and then.
It should vbe backdated to July 19th for those who have actually drawn down and bought a house and who the keys.

4 days short of getting 15k to furnish our first home.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an appeal for this? Should I contact any local TDs or anything? We both have been working full time for the last 4 years and have paid well enough tax. Its sickening. And I am sure we are not the only ones in this position,

If you have only signed the contract , are you sure that they have being filed? Call your builder ASAP..

For what it's worth I know people that had to pay 46k stamp duty 3 days before it was abolished

dzwx

Konata wrote: »

Does the money HAVE to go towards a deposit? We are limited by the 3.5 income multiplier and have saved hard to put together the money to make up the rest of the balance - right now we are looking at an 85% LTV. If we add on the money from the tax rebate we are going to be at 79% LTV - so then we wouldn't be entitled to the rebate?? So could we just keep the rebate for furnishing etc.?

Reading back over that, I'm also wondering is the limit 80% LTV BEFORE you take into account the tax rebate or AFTER? That would be the key question for us I think (as all would be fine if it is before the rebate is counted).

We are in similar situation, we have a nice strong deposit but we are limited badly by LTI rule (commision based jobs).
Does it mean that scheme won't be any good at all?

mick_ire

The 80% LTV is a load of BS. Penalising responsible savers. The banks are the ones benefiting as they charge customers a higher interest rate for higher LTV. This is encouraging people to save the bare deposit. I guess that is no shock given that the government have a vested interest in the banks :-O

cronos

mick_ire wrote: »

The 80% LTV is a load of BS. Penalising responsible savers. The banks are the ones benefiting as they charge customers a higher interest rate for higher LTV. This is encouraging people to save the bare deposit. I guess that is no shock given that the government have a vested interest in the banks :-O

Indeed but what's to stop you going with the 80 percent LTV? Then just overpaying the rest immediately?

mick_ire

cronos wrote: »

Indeed but what's to stop you going with the 80 percent LTV? Then just overpaying the rest immediately?

I would assume the higher interest rate would have to be paid on the rest of the mortgage, even though you would be less that the 80% if you overpay immediately? I'd say any benefit would be negligible.

brian2614

brian2614 wrote: »

This is my situation...

I bought my 1st house this year,new build @ €150K(obviously I don't live in Dublin) paid my deposit of €15K and signed after the 19 of July I think(waiting on solicitor to get back to me)

Is it from the moment you sign and get the keys in your hand or when the morgagte is drawn down

Am I entitled to this???

Thanks in advance

Got a fone call from my solicitor this evening to say I am entitled to the rebate... Just.I signed on the 19th!!!

I thought I signed earlier but was hoping I didn't.For once I am getting something off this <snip > government.

December2012

garbo196 wrote: »

I am absolutely gutted with the outcome of yesterday. Myself and my girlfriend bought a house off the plans back in April. We signed the contracts in May on our side, and the builder's solicitors signed on their side on July 15th. We do not qualify for the tax rebate since the contracts were signed before 19th July. We missed out on this by 4 days.
What annoys me the most is the fact that we have only signed contracts, we have not bought a house, it is not ours, we have not drawn down any money, anything could happen between now and then.
It should vbe backdated to July 19th for those who have actually drawn down and bought a house and who the keys.

4 days short of getting 15k to furnish our first home.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an appeal for this? Should I contact any local TDs or anything? We both have been working full time for the last 4 years and have paid well enough tax. Its sickening. And I am sure we are not the only ones in this position,

Why not ask the builders if the date on the contract can be amended? It's no loss to them so it may be suitable.

Michael D Not Higgins

Konata wrote: »

Does the money HAVE to go towards a deposit? We are limited by the 3.5 income multiplier and have saved hard to put together the money to make up the rest of the balance - right now we are looking at an 85% LTV. If we add on the money from the tax rebate we are going to be at 79% LTV - so then we wouldn't be entitled to the rebate?? So could we just keep the rebate for furnishing etc.?

Reading back over that, I'm also wondering is the limit 80% LTV BEFORE you take into account the tax rebate or AFTER? That would be the key question for us I think (as all would be fine if it is before the rebate is counted).

Yes the money has to go on the deposit and it has to be less than 20% deposit including the rebate. If you're buying this year before the scheme is launched you can buy up to 20% with your own money and get the 5% back when it launches.

If you buy next year, you can have a max deposit of 15% with the max rebate of 5%.

Shelga

Shedite27 wrote: »

There's enough people who stayed in Ireland, went through job cuts, wage freezes, rent hikes and tax increases that need to be helped out first. This does that.

We'll get around to your welcome home invite any day now.

No need to be such a smug martyr, all I'm saying is there are people like me and my friends who really want to come home and feel no incentive to do so, thought you would have wanted more of us to pay tax.

Yes the tax subsidy suggestion for returning emigrants was daft, wouldn't have affected most people anyway who are medium earners.

Shelga

And I'm not saying I want special treatment, just not to be at a significant disadvantage compared to other first time buyers.