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Sligo and Environs Development Plan 2010 - 2016

Andy From Sligo

I see this SEDP plan is due to expire this year - do you think the restrictions on say what is allowed to be opened up and what can and cannot be sold at the Retail park at carraroe will be lifted on will the plan just carry on as it is?

http://www.sligococo.ie/Publications/PlanningPublications/SligoEnvironsDevelopmentPlan2010-2016/

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Andy From Sligo

Oh it looks like iit runs until November this year so maybe I am too premature in asking my question at this moment in time

Speedwell

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Oh it looks like iit runs until November this year so maybe I am too premature in asking my question at this moment in time

I used to work in commercial real estate. In terms of the timing of commercial real estate deals, your question is right on time.

prodsc

Speedwell wrote: »

I used to work in commercial real estate. In terms of the timing of commercial real estate deals, your question is right on time.

An election issue too?

Speedwell

prodsc wrote: »

An election issue too?

If you had ever worked in commercial real estate, and someone asked you that question, you would think very hard and long about the similarities between that field and the field of politics. One field is full of entitled, spoiled, badly-brought-up individuals who sell empty space to people who just need to run their businesses and lives without having to devote all of their time and money to their rents, who then ignore their customers for years at a time so they can chase profits until it's time to draw up a new contract. The other field typically involves office buildings.

maryishere

Dermot Bannon was on the Late Late show last night had some interesting points to make on urban planning. He correctly pointed out that locating supermarkets and such like "5 minutes" outside town centres destroyed town centres, "sucked life out of them" etc. He pointed out that towns which did not allow out of town shopping centres - like "Westport and Clonakilty" are doing relatively well, and are not spolied.

Sligo allowed numerous out of town centres to be built during the disastrous boom years. Many people, looking at the experience of towns in the UK etc, said it would destroy the town and it did.

When people can go off and park for free 5 or 10 minutes drive and shop in out of the way places like Lidl or Argos or Carraroe...thats 3 different car journeys for example...they are not going to pay €1.20 per hour to park in Sligo town. There needs to be cheaper car parking in Sligo town, and easily accessible from the inner relief road, or people - tourists and locals alike - will continue to bypass Sligo. There is less and less of a critical mass of shops in Sligo to attract shoppers. Rates and car parking charges should be increased on the out of town places.
From talking to people, its not fair that the town centre is saddled with high rates and high car parking charges. It has driven too many businesses out to 10 or 15 minutes drive from Sligo eg McDonalds. Too many units are empty in Sligo now. Carraroe was good farmland. It has been destroyed, concreted and tarmaced over...no soil soakage. The huge car parks are empty most of the time. No wonder, its so far from Sligo, and far from the bus/ train station, other amenities etc. Further out the road 2 different car dealerships I understand suffered flood damage. If the planners wanted to develop the hill in Carraroe, they should have kept the shops closer to Sligo and put car dealerships on the hill instead.

Dermot Bannon was right, he said architects / town planners should have been involved in the planning process.

rizzodun

maryishere wrote: »

Dermot Bannon was on the Late Late show last night had some interesting points to make on urban planning. He correctly pointed out that locating supermarkets and such like "5 minutes" outside town centres destroyed town centres, "sucked life out of them" etc. He pointed out that towns which did not allow out of town shopping centres - like "Westport and Clonakilty" are doing relatively well, and are not spolied.

Sligo allowed numerous out of town centres to be built during the disastrous boom years. Many people, looking at the experience of towns in the UK etc, said it would destroy the town and it did.

When people can go off and park for free 5 or 10 minutes drive and shop in out of the way places like Lidl or Argos or Carraroe...thats 3 different car journeys for example...they are not going to pay €1.20 per hour to park in Sligo town. There needs to be cheaper car parking in Sligo town, and easily accessible from the inner relief road, or people - tourists and locals alike - will continue to bypass Sligo. There is less and less of a critical mass of shops in Sligo to attract shoppers. Rates and car parking charges should be increased on the out of town places.
From talking to people, its not fair that the town centre is saddled with high rates and high car parking charges. It has driven too many businesses out to 10 or 15 minutes drive from Sligo eg McDonalds. Too many units are empty in Sligo now. Carraroe was good farmland. It has been destroyed, concreted and tarmaced over...no soil soakage. The huge car parks are empty most of the time. No wonder, its so far from Sligo, and far from the bus/ train station, other amenities etc. Further out the road 2 different car dealerships I understand suffered flood damage. If the planners wanted to develop the hill in Carraroe, they should have kept the shops closer to Sligo and put car dealerships on the hill instead.

Dermot Bannon was right, he said architects / town planners should have been involved in the planning process.

I've lost count of the amount of times you've posted the exact same thing over and over again in this forum.... anything else to add perhaps?

easkey

maryishere wrote: »

Dermot Bannon was on the Late Late show last night had some interesting points to make on urban planning. He correctly pointed out that locating supermarkets and such like "5 minutes" outside town centres destroyed town centres, "sucked life out of them" etc. He pointed out that towns which did not allow out of town shopping centres - like "Westport and Clonakilty" are doing relatively well, and are not spolied.

Sligo allowed numerous out of town centres to be built during the disastrous boom years. Many people, looking at the experience of towns in the UK etc, said it would destroy the town and it did.

When people can go off and park for free 5 or 10 minutes drive and shop in out of the way places like Lidl or Argos or Carraroe...thats 3 different car journeys for example...they are not going to pay €1.20 per hour to park in Sligo town. There needs to be cheaper car parking in Sligo town, and easily accessible from the inner relief road, or people - tourists and locals alike - will continue to bypass Sligo. There is less and less of a critical mass of shops in Sligo to attract shoppers. Rates and car parking charges should be increased on the out of town places.
From talking to people, its not fair that the town centre is saddled with high rates and high car parking charges. It has driven too many businesses out to 10 or 15 minutes drive from Sligo eg McDonalds. Too many units are empty in Sligo now. Carraroe was good farmland. It has been destroyed, concreted and tarmaced over...no soil soakage. The huge car parks are empty most of the time. No wonder, its so far from Sligo, and far from the bus/ train station, other amenities etc. Further out the road 2 different car dealerships I understand suffered flood damage. If the planners wanted to develop the hill in Carraroe, they should have kept the shops closer to Sligo and put car dealerships on the hill instead.

Dermot Bannon was right, he said architects / town planners should have been involved in the planning process.

Spoken just like a proud member(LOBBYIST) for
Sligo Chamber of Commerce!!!!!

LETS KEEP THE CARTEL GOING :mad::mad:

overshoot

easkey wrote: »

Spoken just like a proud member(LOBBYIST) for Sligo Chamber of Commerce!!!!!

LETS KEEP THE CARTEL GOING :mad::mad:

so your saying Carraroe or Clevragh retail parks are success stories for the town and move everything out?

easkey

overshoot wrote: »

so your saying Carraroe or Clevragh retail parks are success stories for the town and move everything out?

I think if they were given a chance and allowed to grow
YES especially Carraroe.
On every occasion Sligo blocked progress.
All anyone ever heard was eg…..
New multi-storey shopping centre in the centre of Sligo (Treasure Holdings) :rolleyes::rolleyes:
And we must never forget that Fantastic TOILET in the “CITY Centre”

Not to mention Yankee candles in Homestore;)

overshoot

do you really have to use gigantic letters? from what you have highlighted it actually just makes your point appear to take issue with who runs it not sustainable development.

maryishere

easkey wrote: »

Spoken just like a proud member(LOBBYIST) for
Sligo Chamber of Commerce!!!!!

I have nothing to do with Sligo Chamber of Commerce and know little of their activities. I simply pointed out that Dermot Bannon (and people trained like him in urban design etc) made interesting points on how out of town shopping centres suck life out of towns, and they were proved correct. As he said, look at relatively successful towns like Westport and Clonakilty. Seeing as you do not like his message, I suppose you will attack him too.

Andy From Sligo

maryishere wrote: »

I have nothing to do with Sligo Chamber of Commerce and know little of their activities. I simply pointed out that Dermot Bannon (and people trained like him in urban design etc) made interesting points on how out of town shopping centres suck life out of towns, and they were proved correct. As he said, look at relatively successful towns like Westport and Clonakilty. Seeing as you do not like his message, I suppose you will attack him too.

I watch Room to Improve quite regularly, and quite regularly he makes a wrong call on something and has had to swallow his words - so I wouldnt always listen to these so called 'experts' all the time ... id rather like a 'suck it and see' philosophy sometimes (and I dont mean that in a sexual way lol :eek:) - what doesnt work for one/some towns might work for others - but if your not willing to try all avenues and ideas you will never find out what works and what doesnt. but I dont think Sligo is that daring especially as the people that run it wants every thing to exist in the town centre with poor access roads, poor parking spaces, poor delivery areas and pokey little streets that still have traffic going down them still and not pedestrianised - what features out of that lot is gonna entice people to shop in the town centre?

- so yeah the way it is at the moment, in Sligo it is indeed better to open up shops out of town where there is better access, space to park (& Free!) pull up, load your car , walk where the only traffic is for the car park and nice wide pavements and everything what you want is all close together.

In other words feck the town centre altogether unless your gonna flatten it and put in better roads and pavements and parking close to the shops and a nice big pedestrianised area.... and move everything up to the retail parks lol

maryishere

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I wouldnt always listen to these so called 'experts' all the time

I would listen to so called experts at least some of the time...they cannot all be wrong and all, after studying examples for years, would conclude that out of town shopping centres destroy towns. A lose lose for everyone, looking at examples in England etc. You just have to look at Sligo to see the mess out of town centres like Cleveragh, Duncans island and Carraroe have not worked, but also destroyed the town centre.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

what doesnt work for one/some towns might work for others

"might". The experiment failed in Sligo. Out of town shopping centres were not allowed in Westport and Clonakilty and they are better off for it.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

especially as the people that run it wants every thing to exist in the town centre

If that was the case why did they allow Cleveragh, Duncans island, and Carraroe, to name but three, and if you want to visit lidl or dunnes groceries they also necessitate 4th or 5th car journey?

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

with poor access roads,

I agree access roads to all of the out of town centres in Sligo are poor. They out of town centres are also inaccessable to those on foot or who arrive in Sligo by bus or train. Not very environmentally friendly having out of town centres.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

In other words feck the town centre altogether unless your gonna flatten it and put in better roads and pavements and parking close to the shops

I agree there needs to be better parking close to the shops, and cheaper parking, much cheaper. They should charge rates on out of town centres and leave Sligo free ( or at least cheaper), to encourage "one stop shopping" and build up a critical mass in Sligo again. This will help the environment too, and help the tourist industry. Not everyone has a car you know. There are many empty units in the out of town centres, I bet there will be more in years to come but they can either be demolished or else used for light manufacturing, wholesale, bulky goods etc.
Its interesting to debate it anyway. Pity there was not more open debate before the out of town centres were built in all different directions.

Bebo stunnah

Just a few things though Mary; Sligo doesn't have any out of town shopping centres. Duncans Island, Cleaveragh and Carraroe are all retail parks All of which already sell bulky goods which is part of the planning permissions for allowing to operate there. There was nowhere in the town for a retail park to be built to accomodate the stores. You might be able to look now at vacant sites but back when they were constructed there was very little place to build one.
The Carraroe retail park is the busiest of them, but that is solely because of the food outlets, the park itself is very sparsely occupied which is evident by all the empty parking spaces. which means that they arent that big of a factor on the demise of the town.

Another thing to question in town is are the car parks in town empty? From my experience it doesn't look like they are. And if they were surely now would be the time to sort out the towns awful parking problem by levelling the existing car parks and putting up multistories? One of my absolute peevs about this town is the drivers. Complete and utter w@nkers. Too lazy to walk anywhere (everywhere in the town centre is a 5 min walk) and thinking they're an exception, which gives rise to parking on footpaths, parking on double yellow lines, stopping in yellow boxes, parking on hatching (tesco car park), breaking the lights. These all have to be sorted out.

The experiment failed in Sligo. Out of town shopping centres were not allowed in Westport and Clonakilty and they are better off for it.

You can't compare either of those towns to Sligo, it has about 4 times the population size of both of them! Another thing is the Tesco in Westport is far from being town centre.

Andy From Sligo

Thing is what you have to ask and what should be sorted out about the car parking in the town centre is: What is staff car parking and what is shoppers car parking? - they have sort of 'morphed' into each other which is not good and really need sorting out.

If people visit the town in their cars to do shopping they want a car parking space - they dont want to be greeted with cars that are parked their all day taking up spaces from shop & office workers taking up car parking spaces that should be left clear for shoppers.

And also the Hospital car park should be kept clear for patients and visitors to the Hospital. Not by hospital workers and certainly not by shoppers who park at the hospital and walk down the mall.

again, one of those issues not thought out properly, mainly I suppose because a lot of shop premises do not have a separate staff car park, or sufficient spaces for staff!

Andy From Sligo

my wife come up with a good Idea - for those who drive to work and if their place of employment dont offer parking for staff , let people who work in the shops in sligo , park up in the (empty nearly all the time) carraroe Retail Park car park and lay on a shuttle bus backwards and forwards from the retail park to the Town centre just for the workers. Thus it would keep more parking spaces for shoppers and visitors to Sligo next to the shops.

Bebo stunnah

You'll find that the carparks that offer 'All Day Parking' (3 euro I think) would be where the people who work in town park.
With the hospital car park, the people who should have priority are the people to work there! The only other people who would be using parking spots are visitors and people attending outpatient appointments. Although you'll find people tend to park at the lay down area for up to an hour at a time!

The idea of using the carpark in Carraroe would be a great idea. They used somehting similar during the Fleadh when the town was inaccessible. It would be a great alternative if they ever went ahead with converting current carparks to multistories. But getting Sligo drivers to wilfully park out there would be something of a miracle. Didn't they also drop the bus route out to Carraroe a while back?

maryishere

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

Just a few things though Mary; Sligo doesn't have any out of town shopping centres. Duncans Island, Cleaveragh and Carraroe are all retail parks

Out of town scattered shopping locations so, call them what you want to. As someone else pointed out, Argos in other towns like Enniskillen and Castlebar etc are within walking distance of the town centre. In Sligo it is not. God help any visitor to Sligo trying to find it. None of the franchised fast food outlets (McD, Supermacs, KFC etc) are even within walking distance of the town, cinema, public transport etc. In wet and windy weather I doubt many people would even walk from town to lidl or aldi either

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

The Carraroe retail park is the busiest of them, but that is solely because of the food outlets, the park itself is very sparsely occupied which is evident by all the empty parking spaces.

I agree Carraroe is not a great success but if it was relocated closer to Sligo , and properly designed, then Sligo could have a critical mass of shops/ food outlets etc to cater for everyone, locals and visitors alike.

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

Another thing to question in town is are the car parks in town empty? From my experience it doesn't look like they are.

Correct I think. All the more reason to build cheap and plentiful car and coach parking in town. At the moment many tourists and coaches bypass Sligo.

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

And if they were surely now would be the time to sort out the towns awful parking problem by levelling the existing car parks and putting up multistories?

I like your thinking, but the only problem with that is that multistories cost a lot of money, I would imagine. The council have little or no money. I think it was the medium / long term plan. Dunnes I believe had planning permission for a huge multistorey new shop building inc multistorey car park where they are, but the downturn came and it never got built. However there are a lot of sites / unused empty old buildings which could and should be levelled near the town centre, to make car parks for cars. This would be cheaper than multistories. It would be a step in the right direction to make these available for parking at e.g. €2 per day or €1 for 2 hours. It could be self financing. Increased business in Sligo will help the Council / everyone in the medium term.
If and when the economy ever improved a lot then these car parks could be developed in to multistory parks and/or shops.
Sligo needs to attract more tourists, more visitors, and to make it easier and more pleasureable for everyone to visit. At the moment, think of people who live half way between Sligo and Carrick, or Sligo and Ballina - where do they shop for an afternoon eg groceries / clothes shop / coffee shop / fast food? Sligo needs to attract these people. It is not at the moment.

IMHO because of likely increased oil prices in 10/20 years times, it would be prudent to have shopping / parking facilities located within walking distance of rail and bus links. Now the facilities scattered around Sligo can only really be, and are, accessed by some motorists who know their way around Sligo.

I am not sure I would agree with you the idea of using the carpark in Carraroe as a park'ride would be a great idea. It will only work if the town centre got viable again and built up a critical mass of shops - hopefully in years to come. It may have worked during the fleadh due to the volume of people / critical mass accessing the town centre. If people are in a hurry they would prefer to scoot in the inner relief road and park close to the shops, in the same amount of time they would have gone to Carraroe, parked, walked to the bus stop and be waiting for the bus etc. I think you said the bus service from Carraroe retail park to Sligo was discontinued / stopped, so that says a lot.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thing is what you have to ask and what should be sorted out about the car parking in the town centre is: What is staff car parking and what is shoppers car parking? - they have sort of 'morphed' into each other which is not good and really need sorting out.

Good point Andy. To sort out that problem, how about building cheaper or free car parking for shop workers, slightly further from the shops that their customers would use.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero

Andy From Sligo wrote:

And also the Hospital car park should be kept clear for patients and visitors to the Hospital. Not by hospital workers and certainly not by shoppers who park at the hospital and walk down the mall.

There is a very large staff car park at the hospital, in addition to the public/visitors car park.

Andy From Sligo

Freddie Mercurys Bolero wrote: »

There is a very large staff car park at the hospital, in addition to the public/visitors car park.

Ok in that case , do we know why a lot of time when attending an appointment say like an out patients appointment or to visit someone in hospital its difficult to get a space a lot of the time in the public car park at the hospital? - who is using the spaces or is it the issue that the present car park(s) is not big enough? - or is it that some people are parking there who has no dealing with the hospital?

Andy From Sligo

Can I re-drag up this old thread if its OK because the Sligo and Environs SEDP 2010–2016 runs out in November and I dont know who's responsible for the block on what goods can and cannot be sold up at Carraroe Retail Park.

Is it Chamber of commerce?, Is is Sligo County Council? is it an Bord Plenola? or who to contact if I and others want to object on this Ban and hope to make sure that now this plan is coming to the end that it will not just be renewed for another x- amount of years?

rizzodun

Draft plan here, consultation closes on 30th November

http://www.sligococo.ie/text/Services/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/DraftSligoCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/

Andy From Sligo

rizzodun wrote: »

Draft plan here, consultation closes on 30th November

http://www.sligococo.ie/text/Services/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/DraftSligoCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/

brilliant thanks for the link, will have a read of that

For Forks Sake

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

brilliant thanks for the link, will have a read of that

58 Pages of a retail strategy document http://www.sligococo.ie/text/media/SligoCountyCouncil2015/Services/Planning/Downloads/SCDP20172023/DraftCDP%202017-2023_RetailStrategy.pdf here, I've not read it yet, but I'm not holding out much hope for anything groundbreaking

Andy From Sligo

For Forks Sake wrote: »

58 Pages of a retail strategy document http://www.sligococo.ie/text/media/SligoCountyCouncil2015/Services/Planning/Downloads/SCDP20172023/DraftCDP%202017-2023_RetailStrategy.pdf here, I've not read it yet, but I'm not holding out much hope for anything groundbreaking

I will be honest, I dont fancy reading anywhere near 58 pages! :eek:

I am just going to try to pick out the certain bits (important to me) which is, is the ban lifted as to what and what cannot be sold at the out of town retail parks (IE grocery's etc..) such as up at the carraroe retail park ... wish me luck!

moleyv

Andy From Sligo wrote:

I am just going to try to pick out the certain bits (important to me) which is, is the ban lifted as to what and what cannot be sold at the out of town retail parks (IE grocery's etc..) such as up at the carraroe retail park ... wish me luck!

Without reading it, retail warehouses should only sell bulky goods. It is set out in the retail planning guidelines 2012. These will always take precedence over a development plan or retail strategy. There are some grey areas, but groceries isn't one. There have been exceptions, zoning would have to allow it and it would need a new planning permission.

I don't know Sligo, so can't comment on individual sites; just the thread title caught my attention.

overshoot

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wish me luck!

nope!
your "suck it and see" policy has been tried many times and crippled town centres. This isnt just an Irish thing, let alone a sligo coco thing. Sligo has many problems but not having a supermarket at Carraroe is not one of them.
Once planning has been granted for something it cannot be undone (providing they build it) and then the valve is impossible to turn off

Andy From Sligo

overshoot wrote: »

nope!
your "suck it and see" policy has been tried many times and crippled town centres. This isnt just an Irish thing, let alone a sligo coco thing. Sligo has many problems but not having a supermarket at Carraroe is not one of them.
Once planning has been granted for something it cannot be undone (providing they build it) and then the valve is impossible to turn off

in the nicest possible way - i wish people could see beyond their Chrystal balls and stop 'guessing' what would/might happen:)

No-one could predict what it could do to Sligo Town centre could end up like unless it really happened - the existing shops in the town would just have to come up with some clever ideas to draw people back in again (thats if it ever got to that point in the first place)

I know I have read about it in papers but I have also seen other places in Ireland and UK with out of town retail parks and the Town centre being just as busy as usual ... no, in fact personally it was years ago since I last read in the papers of a town becoming a ghost town because of a new retail park opening up. But if anyone finds a recent news story of this happening I would be intrigued to see it/read about it.

overshoot

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

in the nicest possible way - i wish people could see beyond their Chrystal balls and stop 'guessing' what would/might happen:)

with all due respect you are the one doing that... the counter argument is based on countless typologies throughout the globe... there is NO guessing.
perhaps crippled was an exaggeration but it will drastically affect the town that is sligo. With retail parks it creates times zones of operation. Rather than thrive throughout the day and night parts will only activate for a few hours. This dead time is great for removing the passive surveillance that allows criminal activity and anti-social behaviour to thrive. It removes the footfall from the area and the opportunistic customers from the local shops, so they close as their market contracts. Its why every shopping centre needs its anchor tenant.

Then again... why am I bothering? You have stated you wont be bothering to even read the actual policy your objecting to. How can you actually write a well argued submission without doing so? Nevermind that your argument is 'I passed through a few towns here and there and they were ok'. Anyway, id expect Lidl should soon have planning just off the N15 wont that be easy enough access for you?

Andy From Sligo

overshoot wrote: »

with all due respect you are the one doing that... the counter argument is based on countless typologies throughout the globe... there is NO guessing.
perhaps crippled was an exaggeration but it will drastically affect the town that is sligo. With retail parks it creates times zones of operation. Rather than thrive throughout the day and night parts will only activate for a few hours. This dead time is great for removing the passive surveillance that allows criminal activity and anti-social behaviour to thrive. It removes the footfall from the area and the opportunistic customers from the local shops, so they close as their market contracts. Its why every shopping centre needs its anchor tenant.

Then again... why am I bothering? You have stated you wont be bothering to even read the actual policy your objecting to. How can you actually write a well argued submission without doing so? Nevermind that your argument is 'I passed through a few towns here and there and they were ok'. Anyway, id expect Lidl should soon have planning just off the N15 wont that be easy enough access for you?

Hope you didnt take my post personally to heart - I wasnt referring to you about crystal balls and predicting future before it happens I was just generalising / generalising all people that shoot something down before its even gone ahead even though I quoted your post it nothing personal, I assure you