RAILWAY PRESERVATION

flyingsnail wrote: »

I think people need to realise and accept this, you are never going to run a railway here based on enthusiasts, to make money you need to sell to the public. The simple fact is that without money you are going nowhere, so commercial facts have to take precedent over what enthusiasts want.

However, if you're not going for an authentic recreation why bother at all? Left to their own devices, as the Clonakilty Model Railway Village and the Blennerville people were, and this is the outcome.

BLEN%2Bold%2Bstation.jpg

Blennerville Station prior to restoration. The old platform was still in situ as were all the mile posts in as far as Tralee. All now gone.

BLEN%2Bnew%2Bstation.jpg

The 'new' Blennerville station with standard gauge height platform topped off with CIE/Euro cobble is a travesty.

BLEN%2B2.jpg

As for the outsized carriages with their domestic door handles and ghastly interiors.

The carriages dwarfed poor old 5T as lampooned on this rare postcard.

Why not go the full hog, tar over the trackbed and put a theme park type road train on it.

that was suggested recently!

contrast with the following . Shut since the 1930s, original coaches sourced and rebuilt, ditto original station, suitable locos sourced and a replica of original loco being built

^^ There is a huge following in England (remember the whole Little Trains of Wales thing was kicked off by English, not Welsh 'cranks')
For anyone not au fait with the whole thing over there, full size main line steam locos are being crowd-funded and built from scratch in the 21st century, as far as I know this doesn't happen in any other country.

whisky_galore wrote: »

^^ There is a huge following in England (remember the whole Little Trains of Wales thing was kicked off by English, not Welsh 'cranks')
For anyone not au fait with the whole thing over there, full size main line steam locos are being crowd-funded and built from scratch in the 21st century, as far as I know this doesn't happen in any other country.

Agreed, but there is huge interest in Irish railways in the UK too - as evidenced by the formation of the Irish Traction Group - and this has never been properly tapped into. Operations like Blennerville have put a lot of people off getting involved in Ireland.

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

savagethegoat wrote: »

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

Because people didn't care and didn't value it enough. I think they don't even miss it.

I doubt if any of the inhabitants kicked up a fuss when it closed, or wrote letters to the paper, their TD or councillor.
Now if it was planning permission, or the state of the roads it would be a different matter.

savagethegoat wrote: »

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

Zero enthusiast involvement. It's been proven time and again that to stand a chance of success it must be enthusiast driven not an AnCO/FAS scheme.

well it wasn't zero,and still isn't , but not enough enthusiast input and too much influence by people who know nothing about railways.

savagethegoat wrote: »

well it wasn't zero,and still isn't , but not enough enthusiast input and too much influence by people who know nothing about railways.

Crossed wires - I was talking about the original project. The reason that the current one will not succeed is that local vested interests will not let them in - same as the first time.

[Deleted User]

I don't think rural Ireland has the population density or interest to maintain many preserved rail lines. I imagine it takes a lot of time and money to keep them going.

I don't think we have as great an attachment to railways as in more densely populated countries.

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Crossed wires - I was talking about the original project. The reason that the current one will not succeed is that local vested interests will not let them in - same as the first time.

that's it exactly. The people who failed the first time around haven't gone away as they say

hurricanemk1c

savagethegoat wrote: »

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

To preserve - to keep alive or in existence; make lasting.

Hmm, so a 1949 steam loco, a 1952 ESB loco and a 1958 Bord na Mona loco in service isn't preservation? In reality, industrial railways were a real mixture of purpose built, rebuilt and knocked together stock.

If we are going "whole hog" and re-creating exactly what happened 20-50-100 years ago, I would expect the Bluebell to refurbish the Mark 1 and 2 stock they have to get rid of the modern lighting, ETH cabling, only run stock that actually ran over that route, one era (so no BR Standards running beside Victorian stock in Victorian colours) - the list goes on and on. The aim of all railways is to make money, and that regularly involves historical sacrifice (such as Thomas events).

As has been said, the main market isn't die hard rivet counters but ordinary folk who want a train ride. The number of people who don't know BnM have a railway system is amazing and they learn something. Isn't that more worthwhile that pandering to every miniscule historical accuracy?

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

To preserve - to keep alive or in existence; make lasting.

Hmm, so a 1949 steam loco, a 1952 ESB loco and a 1958 Bord na Mona loco in service isn't preservation? In reality, industrial railways were a real mixture of purpose built, rebuilt and knocked together stock.

If we are going "whole hog" and re-creating exactly what happened 20-50-100 years ago, I would expect the Bluebell to refurbish the Mark 1 and 2 stock they have to get rid of the modern lighting, ETH cabling, only run stock that actually ran over that route, one era (so no BR Standards running beside Victorian stock in Victorian colours) - the list goes on and on. The aim of all railways is to make money, and that regularly involves historical sacrifice (such as Thomas events).

As has been said, the main market isn't die hard rivet counters but ordinary folk who want a train ride. The number of people who don't know BnM have a railway system is amazing and they learn something. Isn't that more worthwhile that pandering to every miniscule historical accuracy?

Okay. you're clearly put out that I called Stradbally 'a plaything' but that's clearly what it is. That said, I'm not trying to take away from it or the activities of its working members.

However, your nonsense about the Bluebell is just that. Most preserved railways across the water take their heritage very seriously, understand that the general public don't have the same level of interest but realise that they are needed to pay for their operation. They cater for them without ignoring their historic equipment which, in the case of most enthusiasts, is the reason they get involved in the first place.

A few pictures of the doomed Great Southern Railway Preservation Society project.

During 1987/88 the society's working members were totally committed to recovering sleepers from the Mallow Beet Factory sidings - a dangerous, futile task as the sleepers ended up on the Fenit line. The Steam crane in the picture is now 'displayed' inthe station car park at Mallow.

On the 14th May, 1989 CIE removed most of the society's rolling stock from Mallow to Rathpeacon with no prior consultation. Within a few weeks the stock was fit for scrap which it duly was within a couple of years.

Mallow shed was demolished to make way for the new car park at the station. The end.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think rural Ireland has the population density or interest to maintain many preserved rail lines. I imagine it takes a lot of time and money to keep them going.

I don't think we have as great an attachment to railways as in more densely populated countries.

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

I suspect part of the reason for the English being so good at this is the part they played inventing railways and the steam locomotive and exporting that idea over pretty much the entire world. Call it some sort of national pride.

Over here, railways would have been seen as a foreign imposition of an elite, a legitimate target during the so-called Troubles and a drain on ratepayers or these days the taxpayer.

During 1989 the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust acquired two original Tralee & Dingle carriages from a yard in Callan, Co.Kilkenny. These had been purchased from Ennis on closure of the West Clare and hauled by road to Callan by the simple expedient of adding an axle to the middle of each underframe. One of these carriages survives at Dromod and would surely be reasonably cheap to replicate for a new Tralee operation - don't hold your breath.

Deleted User wrote: »

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

Old tractors are not hard to come by, hundreds of them still lie in ditches, are pretty cheap to purchase, manageable to haul around and store, apart from the rarest it's easy to obtain parts and relatively easy to restore as they are quite tough little things. Far easier to restore a basket case tractor as opposed to a basket case car. As well as that you can do all this on your tod and you're not obliged to join any group that you're liable to fall out with.

[Deleted User]

whisky_galore wrote: »

I suspect part of the reason for the English being so good at this is the part they played inventing railways and the steam locomotive and exporting that idea over pretty much the entire world. Call it some sort of national pride.

Over here, railways would have been seen as a foreign imposition of an elite, a legitimate target during the so-called Troubles and a drain on ratepayers or these days the taxpayer.

There is certainly a certain amount of national pride about the history in England but I don't think they aren't preserved here because they are foreign - they simply weren't a part of life for many here compared to say growing up commuting by steam train and knowing people who worked on the railway.

I had a quick look at a map of preserved railways in the UK - they seem mostly to be in the densely populated industrial areas, not much in rural Scotland.

me_right_one

I'm a complete outsider here. So my opinion is every bit as valid as anyone else's. But, to me the point of preserving a railway line (or any historical artifact) can be broken down as follows, in order of importance:

In case you get it back working again / need it in future. This is definitely the case with tractors, military buildings / equipment, civic architecture. It was probably a factor in the "Save X line" type preservation societies in the first place.

To appreciate theheritage of something, not just the historical accuracy. For example, Dublins Georgian houses are preserved, and rightly so. But they are in use as offices, homes, shops. They are not kept in authentic tenement state complete with 4 families living in one room! Likewise with Newgrange - it is being used as a tourist attraction, which funds its preservation. The interpretive centre is definitely not authentic, but without it, you would not appreciate the significance of the site in ancient Celtic Ireland's heartland. And they dont offer burnt sacrifices there anymore either! To me, keeping a CIE Diesel alongside a 1920's steam loco is perfectly acceptable - at least they're still alive! Likewise with the CIE/Euro cobble mentioned earlier, so what? If enough money is generated, THEN you can change it back to the original.

Finally, its just a bit of fun. If people start tediously splitting hairs over how original something is, then whats the point. I'd say every Ford Capri in Ireland has been re-engined at this stage, yet you dont hear people complaining. Sure, the more original the better, but you have to be realistic. You have to know where to draw the line, and for me its where the fun/education/appreciation stops. If it starts getting political, good luck!

me_right_one wrote: »

To me, keeping a CIE Diesel alongside a 1920's steam loco is perfectly acceptable - at least they're still alive!

They did actually work side by side in the 50's and 60's, CIE back then was a mix of the modern and Victorian/Edwardian era antiques, but I see your point.

hurricanemk1c

I haven't seen anyone in this thread complain that Merlin hauls Mark 2s, or that 461 and 4 haul Cravens with a BR Van in a completely inaccurate historical livery (Mark 2s included). You have just proved my point Del - that it seems to be OK to be historically inaccurate in a number of ways in the UK and RPSI but smaller places (with smaller budgets and manpower) have to be accurate to something far more rigidly. I was merely taking previous posts to the logical conclusion that, from this thread, it seemed to be 100% right or not worth doing anything at all

Incidently, I haven't had an answer to the question posed in my first post, namely who has been out and helped in preservation? I am, as a matter of fact, an active volunteer at Stradbally and also active in the Irish Railway Record Society, preserving thousands of drawings, books and notes on the network. But I suppose the latter has no meaning for you either

Stradbally is what it is - a preserved railway in the woods whose main aim isn't historical accuracy but local history and getting people involved in it and realising it's there. Out of the 6 locos there, 5 have worked the majority or all of their lives in County Laois. The market isn't enthusiasts per se, but more families who couldn't care less whether the coach was built in 1887 or 1987, so long as it is safe and they enjoy it (which most do). Can't say I've heard anything negative about historical accuracy apart from here

Also no comment about the financial success of both Strad and WSVR. Strange how they are still around and operating when others have started and failed in that time, either by buying land of keeping the owners happy

flyingsnail

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

Incidently, I haven't had an answer to the question posed in my first post, namely who has been out and helped in preservation?

I have been active with the RPSI for 10 years

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone in this thread complain that Merlin hauls Mark 2s, or that 461 and 4 haul Cravens with a BR Van in a completely inaccurate historical livery (Mark 2s included).

Some of the RPSI old guard did lose it when 461 was to be painted green and the blue cravens were proposed.

The modern platform and the non original coaches of the T & Blennerville did not make much odds to me, it was better than nothing and might have been a stepping stone towards something better...many preserved lines in the uk started out with nothing more than an ex BR brake van and an industrial tank. But it's fairly clear with the current standoff the Blennerville operation is going nowhere.

whisky_galore wrote: »

Some of the RPSI old guard did lose it when 461 was to be painted green and the blue cravens were proposed.

The modern platform and the non original coaches of the T & Blennerville did not make much odds to me, it was better than nothing and might have been a stepping stone towards something better...many preserved lines in the uk started out with nothing more than an ex BR brake van and an industrial tank. But it's fairly clear with the current standoff the Blennerville operation is going nowhere.

even if the Council get the cash they are looking for (one million), it will go to waste like before. Makes me spit when I think what sort of line you could have with that dosh and with a volunteer run project

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone in this thread complain that Merlin hauls Mark 2s, or that 461 and 4 haul Cravens with a BR Van in a completely inaccurate historical livery (Mark 2s included). You have just proved my point Del - that it seems to be OK to be historically inaccurate in a number of ways in the UK and RPSI but smaller places (with smaller budgets and manpower) have to be accurate to something far more rigidly. I was merely taking previous posts to the logical conclusion that, from this thread, it seemed to be 100% right or not worth doing anything at all

Incidently, I haven't had an answer to the question posed in my first post, namely who has been out and helped in preservation? I am, as a matter of fact, an active volunteer at Stradbally and also active in the Irish Railway Record Society, preserving thousands of drawings, books and notes on the network. But I suppose the latter has no meaning for you either

Stradbally is what it is - a preserved railway in the woods whose main aim isn't historical accuracy but local history and getting people involved in it and realising it's there. Out of the 6 locos there, 5 have worked the majority or all of their lives in County Laois. The market isn't enthusiasts per se, but more families who couldn't care less whether the coach was built in 1887 or 1987, so long as it is safe and they enjoy it (which most do). Can't say I've heard anything negative about historical accuracy apart from here

Also no comment about the financial success of both Strad and WSVR. Strange how they are still around and operating when others have started and failed in that time, either by buying land of keeping the owners happy

I'll complain about liveries if you like but there's little point as the owners are entitled to do as they please with their locos and rolling stock. The type of stock hauled on the mainline is dictated by safety requirements rather than choice. I was fortunate to travel most of the existing rail system in ancient timber stock behind Nos.171, 184, 186 and 4, but I would have no interest in traveling on Cravens or MkIIs - if I were still an enthusiast.

You're still upset about my description of Stradbally but then go on to describe it as just such an operation. There's no shame in Stradbally doing what it does. As for the financial success or otherwise of Stradbally or the WSVR I cannot say never having seen their accounts.

As for the IRRS I have little positive to say having been a member for twenty years. They publish an interesting Journal but their sycophantic attitude towards CIE management is stomach churning.

railer201

The most self-contained preservation railway on the island as a whole has to be the D&CDR. It ticks all the boxes of what a preserved railway should - steam and vintage diesel, broad gauge, museum, station building, signal box etc., running to a busy timetable, uniformed and friendly staff. Very impressive set up and I can't imagine the sheer volume of hands-on work that went into making it the successful operation that it clearly is.

savagethegoat wrote: »

even if the Council get the cash they are looking for (one million), it will go to waste like before. Makes me spit when I think what sort of line you could have with that dosh and with a volunteer run project

A volunteer run project is not a guarantee that all with run smoothly, the track record (pardon the pun) of such projects in Ireland is not all that great...petty infighting, personality clashes, factions forming and pulling in different directions and local indifference.

Given the deafening silence and lack of outrage, I strongly suspect Tralee locals do not love their railway enough to get stuck in at volunteer level, if the opportunity ever arose.
The only thing remotely railway-related that spurred something resembling community activity was a proposal to convert the Fenit branch into a greenway. Greenways are far easier than preservation could ever hope to be.

NiallBoo

As a matter of interest, what would be considered "authentic"?

If a line/station was working for 50-100 years then it must have naturally changed a bit over that time, so how do you decide what it should look like?

NiallBoo wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what would be considered "authentic"?

If a line/station was working for 50-100 years then it must have naturally changed a bit over that time, so how do you decide what it should look like?

Well the thing at Blennerville does not bear any resemblance to anything that ever was on any narrow gauge line - anywhere!

BV%2BFLICKR.jpg

Close but not quite there!