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ASTI OctNov Action Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters

deiseindublin

I'm not ASTI (more's the pity) so haven't been talking to anybody in ASTI staffrooms.

What's the general feeling on the ground? What way will the vote go?

Just going to tweek this thread a bit as things have moved on since the ballot result.

As usual, keep it civil.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).

Avoid such terms as
"What planet are you on"
"Are you for real"

Any New posters to the forum should be reminded to read the charter.
'Three months holidays' 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff will be deleted.
As usual do not respond if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). Thanks.

MOD

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deiseindublin

Yeah, does for sure. I heard him on the radio this morning and I was roaring at it. Honestly, the cheek of them to ask ASTI voters to hold out and wait a while. As Ed Byrne said later, this was signed in a year ago, they've had plenty of time to sort out their contingency plans.

How many IR disputes would be in any way effective if you waited until it was convenient for opposition? Tbh, it was the first time that I thought DES is panicking, up to this I was wondering who would blink first.

Edited to add that as I said I was listening to him this morning but I never heard him say 6/7 weeks, not sure if that's a quote or a guess at the time they want facilitated, maybe it's background meetings. House was morning mania at the time though so I could have missed it.

political analyst

deiseindublin wrote: »

Great post on Fightbacks page an hour ago:

The Minister asking ASTI members to continue doing S&S for 6 to 7 weeks even if they vote to withdraw from it conflicts with the Irish Times article which I linked in post 87 on the following page and which says that vetting usually takes 3 weeks but can be fast-tracked.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101212955

Jaggo

Non teacher here.
Can i ask you why no one is discussing a regional wage structure similar to the london allowance (30%) or the pay scales in every other European country.

Surely the price of accommodation in dublin v rural means that the dublin teachers are on a significantly smaller salary then those in the country. A 600 euro per month difference in rent prices, equals 7200 per year or around 15000 less per year after tax.

Why is this not an issue?

deiseindublin

Great post on Fightbacks page an hour ago:

We've received this guest post. How many branches or members feel the same?

Having heard the Minister this morning effectively ask the ASTI to ask its members to continue to do S&S for 6-7 weeks even if we vote yes to industrial action, several members of the Dublin South Central Branch have sent this to CEC.

We wish to make it known to CEC that we do not support facilitating the government plans to undermine our industrial action by paying other people to do the work that they refuse to pay us to do.

We fulfilled the conditions of both Croke Park and Haddington Road. We accepted the added unpaid workload during the financial crisis on the understanding that payment would be restored when this agreement came to an end.

At no time was it a condition of this restoration that we sign up to another agreement. If the government feel that they have the right to move the goalposts, then they have to deal with the consequences of that move.

It is also worthy of note that principals are having a nightmare trying to get substitute teachers due in part to the length of time it is currently taking to be Garda vetted. It would add insult to injury that fast tracking would be allowed to facilitate government plans to bring in paid supervisors.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

But withdrawing from S&S is not a strike and thus does not involve picketing. A strike itself is a different matter because it means that the school is close.d

I think you're correct.

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

what about non union members or TUI in joint schools ?
will they have to continue on with S and S

Well TUI aren't working for free at the moment! So they get paid for their work.

Non union.... I honestly just don't know.

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Surely bringing in external employees during any dispute is crossing a picket?

But withdrawing from S&S is not a strike and thus does not involve picketing. A strike itself is a different matter because it means that the school is close.d

judeboy101

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I was a student in 02 and 03 but based on what Im hearing from my colleagues, anyone who comes in to supervise, non union teacher or nay, will be received poorly. The kids themselves labelled them 'stupidvisors' and staff labelled them scabs. I expect it wont be any different this time.

With so many schools using vsware or eportal to do roll call will these hired hands be trained or even allowed to use it given all the private info on it about students. In most schools I know its part of school policy to record attendence using these systems.

km79

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Surely bringing in external employees during any dispute is crossing a picket?

what about non union members or TUI in joint schools ?
will they have to continue on with S and S

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

It's about S&S so, yes, it's everything to do with your post above.

My post was about the DES's request to the ASTI to give more than the officially required notice of SnS withdrawal, and the other requests they have made.
You directed me to a post about the JMB being prepared by having the paperwork ready for the external supervisors. That doesn't have any bearing on the requests from the DES to the ASTI, which is what I was posting about.

I will save my comments about the JMB for another day and a different thread.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Withdrawal from S&S is not a strike. Therefore, new teachers who don't have union membership and who do S&S during this industrial action are not strike-breaking.

Bringing in external personnel to do S&S worked in 2002 and 2003. There's no reason to believe it won't work this time.

Surely bringing in external employees during any dispute is crossing a picket?

Benicetomonty

political analyst wrote: »

Withdrawal from S&S is not a strike. Therefore, new teachers who don't have union membership and who do S&S during this industrial action are not strike-breaking.

Bringing in external personnel to do S&S worked in 2002 and 2003. There's no reason to believe it won't work this time.

I was a student in 02 and 03 but based on what Im hearing from my colleagues, anyone who comes in to supervise, non union teacher or nay, will be received poorly. The kids themselves labelled them 'stupidvisors' and staff labelled them scabs. I expect it wont be any different this time.

political analyst

deiseindublin wrote: »

You'd wonder what it will cost them to advertise, fast track vetting & pay subs. What qualifications will be needed?

Good luck to anybody coming into some schools fresh for a few deputies during the day. Be a very hard job to take I'd say if you're not actually teaching anything. On the other hand, lots of qualified teachers with no hours and I'm sure they'll jump at the chance of work and getting their foot in the door. Doesn't bode well for them in the long run though if they plan on sticking around in the same staff room. I'd imagine it'd be contentious enough to start during a strike.

Withdrawal from S&S is not a strike. Therefore, new teachers who don't have union membership and who do S&S during this industrial action are not strike-breaking.

Bringing in external personnel to do S&S worked in 2002 and 2003. There's no reason to believe it won't work this time.

deiseindublin

You'd wonder what it will cost them to advertise, fast track vetting & pay subs. What qualifications will be needed?

Good luck to anybody coming into some schools fresh for a few deputies during the day. Be a very hard job to take I'd say if you're not actually teaching anything. On the other hand, lots of qualified teachers with no hours and I'm sure they'll jump at the chance of work and getting their foot in the door. Doesn't bode well for them in the long run though if they plan on sticking around in the same staff room. I'd imagine it'd be contentious enough to start during a strike.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

??
The JMB have contracts and vetting protocol ready to go. I fail to see what that has to do with my post above. Just because they have paperwork ready doesn't change the time allowance the DES are seeking for the recruitment and vetting process.

It's about S&S so, yes, it's everything to do with your post above.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Fasttrack vetting is 48hrs through DES. If they put a competitive hourly rate they can advertise, hire and vet in the week before miderm+midterm

It'd be cheaper if they just stuck to their agreement.

judeboy101

coillsaille wrote: »

??
The JMB have contracts and vetting protocol ready to go. I fail to see what that has to do with my post above. Just because they have paperwork ready doesn't change the time allowance the DES are seeking for the recruitment and vetting process.

Fasttrack vetting is 48hrs through DES. If they put a competitive hourly rate they can advertise, hire and vet in the week before miderm+midterm

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

See post 99 on the following page:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101275143

??
The JMB have contracts and vetting protocol ready to go. I fail to see what that has to do with my post above. Just because they have paperwork ready doesn't change the time allowance the DES are seeking for the recruitment and vetting process.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

I see the DES are now asking the ASTI to give more notice than the union are obliged to give in the event of SnS withdrawl to enabe schools to recruit and vet outside supervisors. They are also asking the union to allow principals who are members to implement the arrangements for outside supervisors. Oh and they're also asking us to guarantee that members will not hinder the work of supervisors brought in.

That's a lot of favours they're asking. It's a bit rich when one remembers the intimidation campaign the DES launched last May in an attempt to influence the ballot on CP hours. Funny how they were able to plan ahead the withholding of the SnS money (they wrote it into FEMPI in June 2015) but now they seek the union's cooperation in giving them more time to plan for SnS contingency arrangements.

See post 99 on the following page:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101275143

coillsaille

I see the DES are now asking the ASTI to give more notice than the union are obliged to give in the event of SnS withdrawl to enabe schools to recruit and vet outside supervisors. They are also asking the union to allow principals who are members to implement the arrangements for outside supervisors. Oh and they're also asking us to guarantee that members will not hinder the work of supervisors brought in.

That's a lot of favours they're asking. It's a bit rich when one remembers the intimidation campaign the DES launched last May in an attempt to influence the ballot on CP hours. Funny how they were able to plan ahead the withholding of the SnS money (they wrote it into FEMPI in June 2015) but now they seek the union's cooperation in giving them more time to plan for SnS contingency arrangements.

coillsaille

Below are some points regarding the ballots which were circulated today by a CEC member and I felt they were worth repeating in this forum.

Ballot on S&S:

Under the terms of HRA 2013 to June 2016 teachers agreed to make themselves available for extra periods on the S&S roster and to deliver 43 hours work per year. This agreement meant payments for S&S would be withdrawn and the work would be done effectively for free for the duration of that agreement; 3 school years. The agreement also stipulated that payment would return for this work (post this agreement) from September 2016 to be paid in two moities - €796 to be added pay scales in September 2016 and another €796 to be added to salary in September 2017. HRA did not stipulate that these payments would be made subject to our accepting the following pay deal, namely the Landsdowne Road Agreement. The monies due in 2016 and 2017 were promised under the HRA to be paid on 2 dates post HRA.

As we did not sign up to LRA the government has refused to make these payments to ASTI members. INTO and TUI members are in receipt of these payments from this September as was due to all teachers.

This ballot asks if you are willing to withdraw from delivering on S&S duties given that you are not being paid the money you are entitled to for delivering on same. If the result of the ballot is a Yes vote, the ASTI will be giving notice to the Department of Education and Skills that we will be withdrawing our labour while we are in industrial dispute and the monies owed are not paid. If the ballot result is a No vote, ASTI members will continue to deliver S&S unpaid as we have since the return to school this year and we will still remain unpaid although INTO and TUI colleagues are being paid for this work.

It is not known what the DES will do in the event that this ballot is carried. They have hinted that they will employ people to come into schools for at least some of the duties [there is not clarity around what this means or how it would work]. The ASTI hope that this withdrawal will not close schools but that depends on the response from the DES. In any event, it is not the ASTI that closes schools except on strike days and there is no strike proposed in this ballot regarding S&S. Responsibility for the closing of schools if it was to result from a ballot like this rests with the DES.

Ballot for restoration of the common basic pay scale:

We have an ever growing no. of Newly Qualified Teachers (NQTs) and Lesser Paid Teachers (LPTs) in our schools each year. New inferior pay scales were introduced across the public sector from 2011. In teaching, there are 2 inferior pay scales – one which started in 2011 and an even more inferior scale affecting all teachers employed since February 2012. Everyone accepts that it is hugely unjust that colleagues are paid on different pay scales. It makes a huge financial difference to earnings across one’s career.

ASTI Convention 2016 passed a motion that if the common basic pay scale was not restored to all teachers that we would ballot for industrial action on this. LPTs are angry with the unions for not having dealt with this issue in previous years. The reality is unions were not allowed to take industrial action when they were party to a pay agreement. The cuts came in during the lifetime of the Croke Park Agreement. Our union rejected the following agreement CPA2 which then merged into HRA. Our union balloted HRA in December 2013 with a recommendation to vote No but the agreement was accepted and again our hands were tied on this issue. We are now outside of a pay agreement having voted to reject LRA last October and this presents the opportunity to take industrial action on this issue.

In recent weeks the INTO and TUI have negotiated partial restoration of pay for NQTs and LPTs. This means there will be two pay scales into the future in teaching instead of the current 3. Many LPTs are extremely annoyed that this deal done by the INTO and TUI ‘cements’ acceptance of lesser pay into the future. Their pay will still trail significantly behind those of us who started teaching before 2011. The ASTI has a policy of ‘equal pay for equal work’ and is recommending a Yes vote in this ballot for industrial action up to and including strike on this issue. It is likely that a Yes in this ballot will result in strike day(s).

There is also an ASTI protest being organised at the Dáil after school on Thursday, October 13th, and it is hoped that ASTI teachers teaching in the greater Dublin area will attend this protest.

coillsaille

gaiscioch wrote: »

Perhaps the next government wined and dined journalist in our glorious free press who says the CPH are essential to "reform" could explain this.

If only the press had to explain any of many wildly inaccurate claims they sometimes make, then we would have professional and responsible journalism. But for that to happen they would have to be pulled up and held accountable when they report inaccuracies and skewed views as facts.
But that simply doesn't happen. We all remember the completely incorrect front page story about the number of ASTI members that went on strike, followed by the very small and well-hidden retraction and correction.

gaiscioch

coillsaille wrote: »

Would agree with what folks have said - most members will follow the recommendation, plus a feeling of 'sure we've come this far, no point backing down now'.

hehe. Those ones are always the dangerous ones! Great to see our school getting the vote out via the shop steward coming around to us personally. Hopefully turnout will be huge if this is replicated in all schools. Voted Yes to both, needless to say.

It's a wonder ASTI schools are not collapsing in chaos now that we aren't doing all those ineffably pointless Croke Park hours. Perhaps the next government wined and dined journalist in our glorious free press who says the CPH are essential to "reform" could explain this.

acequion

Always hard to know what each member will do but I'd be confident of a large yes to both in our place.

As to the turn out,don't understand why that poster thinks it will be under 50%. With school based ballots now I'd expect the turnout to be high.

acequion

amacca wrote: »

Whats to stop my OH deciding how to vote friday and posting off then or even after weekend

surely ballot closes on 12th or latest time you can conceivably get the ballot papers to head office? or does it have to be handed to steward tomorrow or its not a valid vote?

sorry for being a bit off topic...just curious if theres some sort of rule that you should actually fill in the slip by tomorrow or if ballot closing means something different than I thought

Tell your OH to get that vote off tomorrow,just in case. We need a strong turnout!

amacca

deiseindublin wrote: »

Votes to be returned by 12th but thought voting closes tomorrow.

From their site:

Whats to stop my OH deciding how to vote friday and posting off then or even after weekend

surely ballot closes on 12th or latest time you can conceivably get the ballot papers to head office? or does it have to be handed to steward tomorrow or its not a valid vote?

sorry for being a bit off topic...just curious if theres some sort of rule that you should actually fill in the slip by tomorrow or if ballot closing means something different than I thought

Icsics

Yes to both in our place. Really need to see some action then, sick of this faffing about.

darlett

deiseindublin wrote: »

That's not an outcome!

But if it's not an outcome and it's not an objective what are we supposed to tell the kids it is at the start of class?

deiseindublin

That's not an outcome!

Terri26

I would hope a lot more than 50% would vote. And I think there will be a high turnout considering the issues and that it's a school based ballot