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Thread Spilt Recreational Runners and Joining Clubs

nhunter100

Chivito550 wrote:

People who invest heavily in their running (financially and emotionally) yet won't join a club. These people are useless to the sport IMO. May aswell be playing tennis or judo as they are keeping themselves (and their money) outside of the sport, when the sport badly needs them (and the money). I'm not talking about people who are starting out. I'm talking about people who have been running for a good while but full on refuse to join a club despite being perfectly capable runners.

The closest club to me is 15 miles away, where the membership is predominantly female whose only goal seems to be to loose weight and compete in the DCM hoping for a sub 5. Generalisation I know but this is the reason I'm a solo runner. Plus if people in clubs share your attitude I don't think I'm missing much tbh.

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Chivito550

nhunter100 wrote: »

The closest club to me is 15 miles away, where the membership is predominantly female whose only goal seems to be to loose weight and compete in the DCM hoping for a sub 5. Generalisation I know but this is the reason I'm a solo runner. Plus if people in clubs share your attitude I don't think I'm missing much tbh.

You don't know my attitude then. I wish every jogger and recreational runner would join a club.

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

People who invest heavily in their running (financially and emotionally) yet won't join a club. These people are useless to the sport IMO. May aswell be playing tennis or judo as they are keeping themselves (and their money) outside of the sport, when the sport badly needs them (and the money). I'm not talking about people who are starting out. I'm talking about people who have been running for a good while but full on refuse to join a club despite being perfectly capable runners.

I'd strenuously disagree with that. Take IMRA as an example, I reckon the majority of the 200 or so weekly racers during the summer aren't regular club runners. These people probably give more back to the sport than most club runners when you take their race fees, and more importantly, time given volunteering, into account. Same probably goes for Park Run.

I actually don't know what point you're trying to make.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

I'd strenuously disagree with that. Take IMRA as an example, I reckon the majority of the 200 or so weekly racers during the summer aren't regular club runners. These people probably give more back to the sport than most club runners when you take their race fees, and more importantly, time given volunteering, into account. Same probably goes for Park Run.

I actually don't know what point you're trying to make.

The way I look at it we have 2 sports right now. One which has great quality but is on death's door with dreadful attendances at Nationals etc. Then we have another sport that appears to be booming but the quality is poor (recreational running). I'd like to see the two engaged together for the good of the overall sport. The lack of effort down the years by AAI to bridge this disconnect is the big problem, but I'm still entitled to get pissed off that people who run every day don't give much of a toss about the sport, and don't really try to be part of it.

ThisRegard

But in the examples I gave they're obviously more interested in it than the average club runner if you use your yard stick of what they invest back into it.

There's a difference between organising and participation with attending meets, the simple fact is that it's a sport that lends itself more to partaking in it over watching a track meet.

You do have the other segment who just do it to keep fit and have no interest in racing, like you would with the lads who play 5 a side after work. They wouldn't all play for a club, just enjoy it for a bit of fun.

tang1

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it we have 2 sports right now. One which has great quality but is on death's door with dreadful attendances at Nationals etc. Then we have another sport that appears to be booming but the quality is poor (recreational running). I'd like to see the two engaged together for the good of the overall sport. The lack of effort down the years by AAI to bridge this disconnect is the big problem, but I'm still entitled to get pissed off that people who run every day don't give much of a toss about the sport, and don't really try to be part of it.

Would ya ever stop, where would races be without these 'poor recreational runners' out of pocket that's where. Vast majority of races are filled with these 'poor recreational runners' and it is there entry fee that keeps said club races and clubs going with much needed money. 80%(rough guess not exact figure) of the entrants to the Race Series each year are said 'poor recreational runners' the same runners that keep the Race Series going and much needed money towards DCM I'd imagine. Stop trying to shove your opinion down everyone's throat when you try to make a point, your not right all the time.

Gavlor

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it we have 2 sports right now. One which has great quality but is on death's door with dreadful attendances at Nationals etc. Then we have another sport that appears to be booming but the quality is poor (recreational running). I'd like to see the two engaged together for the good of the overall sport. The lack of effort down the years by AAI to bridge this disconnect is the big problem

Very good point

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm still entitled to get pissed off that people who run every day don't give much of a toss about the sport, and don't really try to be part of it.

Nonsense

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

Would ya ever stop, where would races be without these 'poor recreational runners' out of pocket that's where. Vast majority of races are filled with these 'poor recreational runners' and it is there entry fee that keeps said club races and clubs going with much needed money. 80%(rough guess not exact figure) of the entrants to the Race Series each year are said 'poor recreational runners' the same runners that keep the Race Series going and much needed money towards DCM I'd imagine. Stop trying to shove your opinion down everyone's throat when you try to make a point, your not right all the time.

Sorry, just because recreational runners happen to run some club races (I'd guess most choose commercial races more often) does not mean that athletics and recreational running are engaged. You are deluded if you think there isn't an enormous disconnect between the two, which I would love to see closed. If you think it is a negative wish to want to see the sport thrive in numbers, in all areas (indoor, outdoor, cross country, road, field, track, participating and spectating) then I don't know what to say to you. Seems like just somebody looking to be offended.

Kissy Lips

tang1 wrote: »

Would ya ever stop, where would races be without these 'poor recreational runners' out of pocket that's where. Vast majority of races are filled with these 'poor recreational runners' and it is there entry fee that keeps said club races and clubs going with much needed money. 80%(rough guess not exact figure) of the entrants to the Race Series each year are said 'poor recreational runners' the same runners that keep the Race Series going and much needed money towards DCM I'd imagine. Stop trying to shove your opinion down everyone's throat when you try to make a point, your not right all the time.

amazing, classic boards, any opinion that deviates from the norm gets shouted down.

Wild Garlic

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sorry, just because recreational runners happen to run some club races (I'd guess most choose commercial races more often) does not mean that athletics and recreational running are engaged. You are deluded if you think there isn't an enormous disconnect between the two, which I would love to see closed. If you think it is a negative wish to want to see the sport thrive in numbers, in all areas (indoor, outdoor, cross country, road, field, track, participating and spectating) then I don't know what to say to you. Seems like just somebody looking to be offended.

You say you want the sport to thrive. Saying anyone running who is not part of a club is useless to the sport doesn't really feed into that sentiment now does it? Attitudes like that are counter productive to your wish to see the sport thrive.

Wild Garlic

Kissy Lips wrote: »

amazing, classic boards, any opinion that deviates from the norm gets shouted down.

SHUT UP!!!!

Chivito550

Wild Garlic wrote: »

You say you want the sport to thrive. Saying anyone running who is not part of a club is useless to the sport doesn't really feed into that sentiment now does it? Attitudes like that are counter productive to your wish to see the sport thrive.

The broader the base, the higher the peak. People outside the club system aren't part of that base. That's what I mean. Get them in and raise the numbers.

tang1

Kissy Lips wrote: »

amazing, classic boards, any opinion that deviates from the norm gets shouted down.

As you said yourself, I'm entitled to my opinion, not bothered if you don't agree with it. I respect Chivito550's opinion, don't always agree with it though.

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

As you said yourself, I'm entitled to my opinion, not bothered if you don't agree with it. I respect Chivito550's opinion, don't always agree with it though.

Didn't sound like you respected it at all from your choice of words.

tang1

Chivito550 wrote: »

Didn't sound like you respected it at all from your choice of words.

Ah pot kettle black and all that, you can be the same yourself sometimes.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

The way I look at it we have 2 sports right now. One which has great quality but is on death's door with dreadful attendances at Nationals etc. Then we have another sport that appears to be booming but the quality is poor (recreational running). I'd like to see the two engaged together for the good of the overall sport. The lack of effort down the years by AAI to bridge this disconnect is the big problem, but I'm still entitled to get pissed off that people who run every day don't give much of a toss about the sport, and don't really try to be part of it.

I agree with u to a certain extent, but a parent that is a recreational runner can have a positive effect on their kids or other kids and cause them to join a club.

Lack of facilities is a big issue also, clubs in Ireland couldn't handle it, if all recreational runners joined clubs.

NiallBoo

Don't want to point any fingers here but...

One of the things that puts people off joining sports clubs is that once you've been around a few you realise one thing:

There's always an àsshole.

That one person that can't stop themselves going round and telling everyone all the stuff they're doing "wrong". If you can ignore it then great, but many just aren't bothered being polite to someone who insists on treating everyone like children.

(Or worse still, you go down the rabbit-hole, stick around too long and one day realise you've turned into that guy...)

average_runner

NiallBoo wrote: »

Don't want to point any fingers here but...

One of the things that puts people off joining sports clubs is that once you've been around a few you realise one thing:

There's always an àsshole.

That one person that can't stop themselves going round and telling everyone all the stuff they're doing "wrong". If you can ignore it then great, but many just aren't bothered being polite to someone who insists on treating everyone like children.

You could say that about anything in life, work etc. Just don't quit or you quit always in life.

And some people are too stupid to listen and take on advice.

NiallBoo

average_runner wrote: »

You could say that about anything in life, work etc. Just don't quit or you quit always in life.

Absolutely, you get it everywhere.

You don't have much choice much of the time, but joining a club is optional for doing an individual sport. While you'll miss out on lots of benefits, you could still reasonably decide it's worth it.

Chivito550

NiallBoo wrote: »

Don't want to point any fingers here but...

One of the things that puts people off joining sports clubs is that once you've been around a few you realise one thing:

There's always an àsshole.

That one person that can't stop themselves going round and telling everyone all the stuff they're doing "wrong". If you can ignore it then great, but many just aren't bothered being polite to someone who insists on treating everyone like children.

(Or worse still, you go down the rabbit-hole, stick around too long and one day realise you've turned into that guy...)

Can only speak for the clubs I've been involved with, but I've never seen this. The only people who have told me I am doing things wrong or could do things better have been people with far more knowledge than me, and were people I therefore listened to.

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

The broader the base, the higher the peak. People outside the club system aren't part of that base. That's what I mean. Get them in and raise the numbers.

I think the key thing here is that as highly invested as people like you and me are in the elite scene and the club ethos of running, athletics doesn't have a patent on running, completely the opposite in fact, organised athletics is a small subcategory of running and always will be because running is natural, organised athletics is not by definition.

Really, I think these debates hinge way too heavily on the lack of elite talent being down to recreational runners. Let's look at the running boom with a little bit of perspective, it was built on a foundation of 30+ year olds who were never going to be elite competitors and yet the argument is that these runners are the problem for a lack of extremely high quality and depth of competition in the 15-30 year old category(imagine going to a weekly pub kickabout on the astroturf and saying those guys are the reason the national team is lacking depth and quality), the base of top quality runners does not lie with these late life running converts, it lies with making athletics a more attractive and enjoyable option for kids because that's where 99% of elite runners come from(not the 1% of late bloomers) taking up athletics at a young age and sticking with it. The more kids that take part in athletics and stick with it, the more likely that their friends will take an interest and stick which creates a snowball effect creating a bigger base for the real top performers to develop.

I never got the "finisher medals killed the depth" argument as winners win and a bit of shiny tin is not going to quence their thirst to improve. If a finisher medal was enough to satisfy them, they already failed selection bias 101 and would have never made it to that level anyway. The problem for imo isn't the disconnect between later in life recreational and competitive runners to paraphrase but the disconnect between kids and athletics full stop.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

I think the key thing here is that as highly invested as people like you and me are in the elite scene and the club ethos of running, athletics doesn't have a patent on running, completely the opposite in fact, organised athletics is a small subcategory of running and always will be because running is natural, organised athletics is not by definition.

Really, I think these debates hinge way too heavily on the lack of elite talent being down to recreational runners. Let's look at the running boom with a little bit of perspective, it was built on a foundation of 30+ year olds who were never going to be elite competitors and yet the argument is that these runners are the problem for a lack of extremely high quality and depth of competition in the 15-30 year old category, the base of top quality runners does not lie with these late life running converts, it lies with making athletics a more attractive and enjoyable option for kids because that's where 99% of elite runners come from(not the 1% of late bloomers) taking up athletics at a young age and sticking with it. The more kids that take part in athletics and stick with it, the more likely that their friends will take an interest and stick which creates a snowball effect creating a bigger base for the real top performers to develop.

I never got the "finisher medals killed the depth" argument as winners win and a bit of shiny tin is not going to quence their thirst to improve. If a finisher medal was enough to satisfy them, they already failed selection bias 101 and would have never made it to that level anyway. The problem for imo isn't the disconnect between later in life recreational and competitive runners to paraphrase but the disconnect between kids and athletics full stop.

Think about it. If recreational runners were engaged with the sport, you'd have larger membership in clubs across the country. Would these adults improve standards at the very top? No. Would the larger numbers create a better atmosphere and vibrancy at events, which over time would raise the profile of the sport? Absolutely.

Anybody who runs in races for a PB (I'm not counting those who merely exercise) ideally should be inside the club system. Our sport is minority enough as it is, without handicapping it ourselves further.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Think about it. If recreational runners were engaged with the sport, you'd have larger membership in clubs across the country. Would these adults improve standards at the very top? No. Would the larger numbers create a better atmosphere and vibrancy at events, which over time would raise the profile of the sport? Absolutely.

Anybody who runs in races for a PB (I'm not counting those who merely exercise) ideally should be inside the club system. Our sport is minority enough as it is, without handicapping it ourselves further.

Could the clubs handle it? Do we have the facilities?

HS3

Chivito550 wrote: »

El Caballo wrote: »

I think the key thing here is that as highly invested as people like you and me are in the elite scene and the club ethos of running, athletics doesn't have a patent on running, completely the opposite in fact, organised athletics is a small subcategory of running and always will be because running is natural, organised athletics is not by definition.

Really, I think these debates hinge way too heavily on the lack of elite talent being down to recreational runners. Let's look at the running boom with a little bit of perspective, it was built on a foundation of 30+ year olds who were never going to be elite competitors and yet the argument is that these runners are the problem for a lack of extremely high quality and depth of competition in the 15-30 year old category, the base of top quality runners does not lie with these late life running converts, it lies with making athletics a more attractive and enjoyable option for kids because that's where 99% of elite runners come from(not the 1% of late bloomers) taking up athletics at a young age and sticking with it. The more kids that take part in athletics and stick with it, the more likely that their friends will take an interest and stick which creates a snowball effect creating a bigger base for the real top performers to develop.

I never got the "finisher medals killed the depth" argument as winners win and a bit of shiny tin is not going to quence their thirst to improve. If a finisher medal was enough to satisfy them, they already failed selection bias 101 and would have never made it to that level anyway. The problem for imo isn't the disconnect between later in life recreational and competitive runners to paraphrase but the disconnect between kids and athletics full stop.

Think about it. If recreational runners were engaged with the sport, you'd have larger membership in clubs across the country. Would these adults improve standards at the very top? No. Would the larger numbers create a better atmosphere and vibrancy at events, which over time would raise the profile of the sport? Absolutely.

Anybody who runs in races for a PB (I'm not counting those who merely exercise) ideally should be inside the club system. Our sport is minority enough as it is, without handicapping it ourselves further.

To be fair though. You don't hear any other sport bemoaning recreational participants for ruining things.

For example, my kids are in the local school. Since September we've had leaflets home about soccer, GAA, dance, swimming , gymnastics. There are forever people outside the school handing some flyer or other out. The GAA and soccer teams my kid play for all stem from information supplied by the club members who visited the school. There are at least 2 running clubs in the area and there have been nothing from them.

I'm not saying they've been ignored because they haven't asked. It's not Coppers

but if people don't know about it, they're not going to engage with it. At the sports day last year, there were 2 girls who were absolutely flying. I got talking to the mothers who said they'd love to get them into a club but didn't know how. I threw Tallaght AC and Sports world at them but had to tell them to google because I didn't have a clue myself how to approach them.

My eldest himself has expressed an interest, but I haven't had the time to look it all up myself. But I was only thinking about it the other day how it's one of the only sports that haven't had a representative visit the school to try and lure people in. The GAA fella they can't get rid of :pac:

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

If recreational runners were engaged with the sport, you'd have larger membership in clubs across the country.

Athletics Ireland membership is at about 52,000 this year, maybe 53/54 by year end.
I think that's twice what it was ten years ago.
So clearly a lot of recreational runners are engaging with the sport. Happy now?

(actually, just checked, total membership in September was 53765. It was 25k in 2007, so more than doubled in less than 10 years)

average_runner

ger664 wrote: »

No to both questions. But investigate how Craughwell AC in East Galway got to where they are now. By getting the get fit greater then 30min 5k €500 garmin watch woggers to join the club. This created a bigger club and has got them to be one of the biggest juvenile clubs in the country with facilities to match.

And you need the coaches to do that, Alot of clubs have a waiting list for kids at the moment. So there is the first problem.

Alot of kids will only join clubs when they see other kids on the street going to those clubs, I saw that with my kids, they have no interest in running because the kids on the street have no interest.

Also running clubs don't seem to make the effort at schools for some reason, Gaa, Hockey soccer and even Ballet have all called to her school. Closest sport to the school is the running track!!! Wonder why still????

RayCun

Juvenile membership has gone up a lot. In line with overall membership? I don't know. But you need coaches for kids, and they are always in short supply.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Juvenile membership has gone up a lot. In line with overall membership? I don't know. But you need coaches for kids, and they are always in short supply.

And sadly for running alot of the sessions for kids are on in the evening and not sat/sun morning. But then they are competing with other sports those mornings, its a no win situation.

Its tough for parents to get home for 6pm session when they are working and then collecting kids, for me without collecting the kids it be 6:45 before I get home. If collecting the kids it be 7:30.

RayCun

well, we have sessions weekday evenings and Saturday/Sunday mornings. That's when the competitions are, they need to get used to blocking that time out.
A lot of other sports have weekday evening training too. It can't be too late, because its for kids, and you want the light for as long as possible. Makes it tricky for some, I know

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

well, we have sessions weekday evenings and Saturday/Sunday mornings. That's when the competitions are, they need to get used to blocking that time out.
A lot of other sports have weekday evening training too. It can't be too late, because its for kids, and you want the light for as long as possible. Makes it tricky for some, I know

Totally agree with you, its a no win situation.

muddypaws

quickbeam wrote: »

I've only just got in to running - very far from competing in races or anything like that yet. I'm on Week 3 of C25K. But this thread really scares me - is this what I have to look forward to if I actually do start running properly?? Yikes!!!

I've only been running since July, started the C25K and have found everyone very supportive and helpful, in here and in the real world. Definitely go along to your local park run, even whilst still doing the C25K, there are participants of all levels, from people walking, to those running under 20 minutes.

I am involved in putting on races in other sports, and we have an award for the finisher thats out on the course for the longest time. Not for coming last, but for sticking with it, not giving up, and getting around. It takes real dedication to keep going, when you know that you have absolutely no chance of winning, its harder I think than if you believe you have a chance of coming somewhere in the race, so we like to recognise it. Its all about having fun, and achieving whatever it is that you want to achieve.