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So I emailed two TDs about 10PM off-licensing rule

Commotion Ocean

This is our correspondence:

Dear Sirs and Madams,

I am writing you regarding the legislation in Ireland which prohibits off-sales after 10 PM.

Personally, I find it abhorrent in a free-market economy that as a grown adult I cannot purchase alcohol in a shop after 10 PM, even if it is open 24 hours a day. As a worker who has erratic working schedules with finishing times often well after 10 PM, I often find myself unable to purchase a bottle of wine for myself and my partner after work, should the mood take me.

This legislation was introduced a number of years ago to "curb underage drinking", when in reality it was just to get more customers in the pub in my belief, as restricting off-sales will do nothing to prevent underage drinking.

I have lived abroad for a significant amount of time in a European country not too far from here where there was no restriction on the off-sales of alcohol or the opening hours of licensed premises. I can assure you that chaos did not ensue.

I am aware that my request for you to raise this in the Dáil may seem frivolous, but this is an issue which I feel should be addressed.

Mise le meas, dfeo

REPLY FROM RIGHT-WING TD

Dear dfeo,

Thank you for taking the time to email me.

Licensing laws in the Republic are a direct response to alcohol consumption levels which are higher than the European averages. While it may be inconvenient, it is an effective tool from a public health perspective.

I do not believe that these laws were changed to kerb underage drinking, given the high compliance with age verification processes in retailers and the fines associated with none compliance.

Regrettably, we have a difficult relationship with alcohol in this country and in broad terms, policy from the Department of Health is under constant review.

REPLY FROM LEFT-WING TD

Hi dfeo,

Thanks for your email, I think it is a throw back to the days when we allowed the Catholic Church to guide our legislators and it certainly seems a bit backward. Not sure exactly which minister has the responsibility here, it could be Finance maybe you should send them a letter as well and ask if there are any plans to change it.. Although I doubt they have any desire to do anything, they are a very weak government now and won't be rocking the boat where they don't have to. You would have more luck going on to a radio show to get people to talk about it because without public pressure this lot wont do a thing.

All the best

MY RESPONSE BACK TO THE RIGHT-WING TD

Thank you for your reply and apologies for the delay in getting back to you again. If you believe that alcohol should be restricted after 10 PM due to our "excess alcohol consumption" then why is it OK to enter a pub after this time?

Could you please elaborate on how you believe that off-license restrictions will curtail alcohol consumption? I am also communicating with another TD in the area who strongly agrees with my viewpoint.

Kind Regards,
dfeo

I have been ignored since my last reply .... over a week ago :P

Does anyone else feel the same about this or am I just a big alco? :P

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Comments

Commotion Ocean

Did you drink it all?
Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

He wouldn't have bought so much if he knew that he could saunter into a shop and buy alcohol as an adult at any time of the day.

Atlantic Dawn

Seesee wrote: »

Did you drink it all?
Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

The price of houses could be brought in to problem too, no point in trying to buy a house as most can't afford, better to blow your excess cash on alcohol.

darkpagandeath

Seesee wrote: »

Did you drink it all?
Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

Link ....

Spanish Eyes

Seesee wrote: »

Did you drink it all?
Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

Unless you are in Saudi Arabia or the likes, alcohol is a normal part of life for most people.

What do you think are the "problems" with alcohol here?

I think it is the fact that public drunkenness is generally accepted. The Gardai don't seem to intervene much. One punch deaths are becoming more frequent. The courts hear "my client admits he had drink taken", the hospitals do not make any distinctions WRT messy screaming often violent drunks that turn up to A+E.

Society seems to take it as read that people here will get blind drunk, piss in the street and more, have a fight, end up in A+E or even worse, injure someone else or kill them, and that's ok.

Well it is NOT ok. Until public drunkenness and all the associated issues are dealt with we can forget about curbing alcohol sales.

The vast majority of people like a few drinks and don't bother anyone. They are being punished because the only solution being put forward is raising prices and restricting sale times. It is futile.

MeatTwoVeg

Seesee wrote:

Did you drink it all? Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

Current 'measures' are about as much use as a chocolate teapot if you want to restrict 'supply' to problem drinkers.

darkpagandeath

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Unless you are in Saudi Arabia or the likes, alcohol is a normal part of life for most people.

What do you think are the "problems" with alcohol here?

I think it is the fact that public drunkenness is generally accepted. The Gardai don't seem to intervene much. One punch deaths are becoming more frequent. The courts hear "my client admits he had drink taken", the hospitals do not make any distinctions WRT messy screaming often violent drunks that turn up to A+E.

Society seems to take it as read that people here will get blind drunk, piss in the street and more, have a fight, end up in A+E or even worse, injure someone else or kill them, and that's ok.

Well it is NOT ok. Until public drunkenness and all the associated issues are dealt with we can forget about curbing alcohol sales.

The vast majority of people like a few drinks and don't bother anyone. They are being punished because the only solution being put forward is raising prices and restricting sale times. It is futile.

Drunk tanks Heavy fines prison time.

Spanish Eyes

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Drunk tanks Heavy fines prison time.

Nah, that would be too heartless.

Better to raise the price and restrict off sales. Sure that will solve the problem this country has with alcohol won't it?

Of course it won't.

Easy for the Nanny State to say "look, we have done X and Y to sort out the alcohol problem in this country", when the reality is, they don't want to REALLY tackle the issue at all. Well from a societal POV anyway.

Until that happens, forget it.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Stupid, stupid law.

I always assumed it was designed to get people to go to the pub.

I'd say the Vintners certainly had an influence in getting it passed.

I hate the way the government dress it up as being for the good of the public. It's laughable.

Banjoxed

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd say the Vintners certainly had an influence in getting it passed.

I hate the way the government dress it up as being for the good of the public. It's laughable.

Yeah. A nifty bit of protectionism. But as my nearest decent offy is in Northern Ireland thankfully I have outsourced the problem from the State's coffers.

Seesee

ED E wrote: »

Seesee wrote: »

Did you drink it all?
Seriously though we have a really, really huge problem with alcohol in this country. We need more measures to reduce consumption not less.

No, but the same as putting large portions of food on a plate has been shown to cause over eating having 24 bottles sitting there instead of 6 is likely to encourage excess.

And by same logic the free and easy availability will encourage more drinking too.

Howjoe1

Banjoxed wrote: »

Yeah. A nifty bit of protectionism. But as my nearest decent offy is in Northern Ireland thankfully I have outsourced the problem from the State's coffers.

What is closing time up north?

darkpagandeath

Seesee wrote: »

And by same logic the free and easy availability will encourage more drinking too.

You a link to that claim ?

bobbysands81

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Stupid, stupid law.

I always assumed it was designed to get people to go to the pub.

I've been involved in the Govt side of various issues surrounding the use of alcohol and for a variety of reasons (tax intake, employment, safer consumption, public health, more socially inclusive etc.) your assertion is put forward by both sides.

hognef

elperello wrote: »

Or maybe the reality is more like this- http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/06/30/norwegians-drink-more-than-ever/

Norwegians might drink more than ever (they also have more money than ever, and probably more free time than ever, which are both likely contributing factors), but that doesn't change the fact that they still drink significantly less than the Irish.

me_right_one

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Irony is the church in other jurisdictions used to produce all the beer. Don't think the monks did here though. Anyone correct me on this ?

Cant find the link, but the monks definitely did brew beer here too. The church had absolutely zero to do with this closing time law. Not here, not in Italy, not in France, not in Poland, not in Argentina, not in the Philippines, or not in any other Catholic country. Whoever that TD is is a clown. They say its a "throwback", IIRC this time was decided upon in recent times, was it not? Pure dross.

elperello

hognef wrote: »

Norwegians might drink more than ever (they also have more money than ever, and probably more free time than ever, which are both likely contributing factors), but that doesn't change the fact that they still drink significantly less than the Irish.

Norway has gone down the road of high prices and restricted availability.
The question is - do we in Ireland agree to the infantilisation of 100% of the population with high prices and restricted availability to address the problems associated with over consumption of drink?

Buckfast W

In my experience I find that reduced opening times have to opposite effect of keeping me in the pub longer. I'll leave the pub about 9.45 and grab a few cans/bottles and go home whereas if the opening times where longer I'd stay in the pub later and spend a few more quid. Anyone else think the same???

keeponhurling

REPLY FROM LEFT-WING TD

Hi dfeo,

Thanks for your email, I think it is a throw back to the days when we allowed the Catholic Church to guide our legislators and it certainly seems a bit backward. Not sure exactly which minister has the responsibility here, it could be Finance maybe you should send them a letter as well and ask if there are any plans to change it.. Although I doubt they have any desire to do anything, they are a very weak government now and won't be rocking the boat where they don't have to. You would have more luck going on to a radio show to get people to talk about it because without public pressure this lot wont do a thing.

All the best

Maybe slightly off topic, but that's a pretty weak response.
They were to raise it in the Dáil but they seem to have missed that

"not sure what minister has responsibility here" is exactly great either.

What's the feckin' point of even being a TD, if there's no point questioning government policy in the Dáil.

OP, if you don't want to name them, I'm even curious to know which party they are from?

ohnonotgmail

hognef wrote: »

It could be much worse (or better, depending on your viewpoint): In Norway, you can't buy alcohol after 8pm on weekdays, after 6pm on Saturdays, and not at all on Sundays. And normal shops
can't sell anything stronger than mid-strength beer (4.75% or thereabouts). Average consumption is significantly lower than here, arguably at least partially due to the restricted availability.

are the prices not much higher as well?

The Davestator

A taxi driver who services Dublin Airport told me that the Spar in the arrivals car park can sell alcohol 24 hours and he has driven people to it during the night.

Not sure if true, but would like to know if anyone has tried it

Del2005

Seesee wrote: »

And by same logic the free and easy availability will encourage more drinking too.

The people with drinking issues aren't affected by early closing off off licences, if they were then our Emergency Departments wouldn't be full at weekends and we'd have no antisocial issues from alcohol. But after 8 years of restricted sales are EDs are in crisis and antisocial issues have increased.

Why isn't the law we have used to solve the problem, it's illegal to be drunk in public and it's illegal for a publican to serve an intoxicated person. I've never seen a publican refuse to serve a drunken customer, I have seen them serve the drunken customer from the slops!

The highly restricted opening times for off sales, which the publicans ignore, hasn't solved our issues with alcohol so move onto the next step. Why don't we have drunk tanks and on the spot fines for public drunkenness? Why are off licenses hit with underage buyer stings and pubs never hit with intoxicated buyer stings with the same punishment as selling to underage?

Grandeeod

The Davestator wrote: »

A taxi driver who services Dublin Airport told me that the Spar in the arrivals car park can sell alcohol 24 hours and he has driven people to it during the night.

Not sure if true, but would like to know if anyone has tried it

Yes its true. I've often bought a few cans there after getting off a late night flight. Not sure of the particular legislation though.

Ted111

Grandeeod wrote: »

Not sure of the particular legislation though.

I think it's the keep it under your hat act. Section don't plaster it all over the internet or it will stop happening.

goose2005

Del2005 wrote: »

Yes it's a pain in the rear. But as usual in this country the majority without alcohol issues are punished so as not to offend the minority with issues.

Have any studies been done to confirm that the reduced off sales have lead to an decrease in anti social behaviour or other alcohol induced problems?

Why would it? If anything, off licence sales are better - much less likelihood of getting in a fatal crash or a fight or being robbed if you drink at home.

goose2005

alchemist33 wrote: »

Do left wing TDs blame the church for everything now?

In fairness why else can't you buy alcohol before 12.30 on the Lord's day?

goose2005

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In fairness, it does reduce "impulse" buying of alcohol.

But as another poster said, most people know the times, and plan accordingly.

especially alco's. It's only tourists and casual drinkers who get caught out. Any dedicated alcoholic will have a mental map of all nearby off-licenses, a list of their cheapest products and will always be sure to get there by 9.55.

goose2005

me_right_one wrote: »

Cant find the link, but the monks definitely did brew beer here too. The church had absolutely zero to do with this closing time law. Not here, not in Italy, not in France, not in Poland, not in Argentina, not in the Philippines, or not in any other Catholic country. Whoever that TD is is a clown. They say its a "throwback", IIRC this time was decided upon in recent times, was it not? Pure dross.

St. Francis Abbey is Kilkenny brewed ale from the 14th c. and the brewery was later taken over by a Mr Smithwick

Del2005

goose2005 wrote: »

Why would it? If anything, off licence sales are better - much less likelihood of getting in a fatal crash or a fight or being robbed if you drink at home.

The reduced off sales hours were introduced to supposedly reduce antisocial behaviour, in a properly functioning system there should be a review to see if the aims were achieved or not. If the aims weren't achieved then another option should be tried, like enforcing the existing laws and letting off licences have the same hours as on licenced premises.

lawred2

Why can't you just organise yourself to go to the off licence before 10pm?

hognef

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are the prices not much higher as well?

In absolute terms they certainly are. Relative to average gross, net and disposable incomes, it's not quite as clear-cut.