plodder wrote: » You keep on looking at it from the point of view of Eircode licensees or software developers who have access to Eircode lookups. You need to start looking at it from users' point of view, who aren't able to display anything. They just look at whatever the first category of people give to them.
ukoda wrote: » plodder wrote: Public statistics have to be related to areas that people can identify with. Formerly, that had to be counties. The design of eircode does not preclude doing that.
plodder wrote: Public statistics have to be related to areas that people can identify with. Formerly, that had to be counties.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, the CSO does not have to use the routing keys. They can display data any way they want and relate it any way they want, by routing key, county, townland, north south east west, groups of small areas labelled any way they want, to make them relatable to any person, people or scenario. NOTHING in the design of eircode prohibits them doing that. The design benefit of eircode is that you can group them any way you want and in my opinion it's a good thing that the routing keys don't allow people take a lazy option and use a one size fits all approach. If the routing keys were more relatable then everything would be shoehorned into them weather they fit or not.
plodder wrote: » Public statistics have to be related to areas that people can identify with. Formerly, that had to be counties.
ukoda wrote: » And I'm sure you'll be able to distinguish design related items to the choices people and organisations make in displaying their data.
plodder wrote: » Transparent attempt to shut discussion down that might be perceived as negative towards Eircode. I think I have been fair on the whole issue. I always acknowledge Eircode's good and bad points. So, when someone announces here that Eircode is now being used in some way, I will continue to comment on that, good and bad.
ukoda wrote: » I think there's been enough threads used as a vehicle to bash eircode, I'm not opposed to a thread that doesn't keep going over the same old arguments of the design. Otherwise is every thread to be a moaning ground for people who don't like the design of eircode?
GJG wrote: » Of course any subdivision for, say house price stats, is useful; but that doesn't meant that the system should be build around optimising it for that single use - there are thousands of others, many contradictory. Some levels of granularity would be unacceptable for some uses - say HIV infections in UK-sized postcodes. Other levels of granularity would be useless for other uses - say immunisation rates, where a large area doesn't show pockets deviating from the average.
It seems to me that Eircode went to lengths to emphasize that they weren't creating areas, although obviously people could map the routing keys, as in this case. However it's a bit rich to insist on doing this, and then complain that it doesn't work.
Every eircode has a lat/long attached to it, and a very simple procedure can assign it to any sized subdivision that you want. Sure, use the shorthand of the routing keys if you want and they suit you, but if they don't suit your use, map the eircodes to areas that work for you.
plodder wrote: » A poster came on here saying - Look, the CSO are using eircodes with their house price index. Are we not allowed to discuss the pros and cons of eircode's design in the context of that usage? If not, then this thread is purely a vehicle for people who are involved in the project to get free publicity for it. I don't see the point in that. It's supposed to be a discussion site.
ukoda wrote: » It's unfair for users to blame the design of eircode because one person/organisation decided to use the routing keys to display their results. As I've pointed out, it's not a limitation of the design, the design allows any form of presentation of data.
plodder wrote: » GJG wrote: » Plodder, you are stumbling towards the answer there. Sure, be they in the UK (up to 26 residences in each postcode) or in Germany (up to 100,000), people can use the arbitrary postcode areas for organising data or other items. Of course it is normally only a coincidence that the areas are suitable for the use, though as you say, in the UK areas can be combined if they are too small, though even that may not be perfect where a very specific boundary is needed (say, a watershed). But there are thousands of potential uses, and no 'size' is going to suit them all, unless it is done the way Eircode does it - have one residence per code. Then you can combine them any way you want, so the system suits any use. You're mixing up a few different things there. The fact that Eircodes are unique per household is not relevant to the question of whether routing keys are a useful index for aggregate statistics like house prices. We are looking at this from the point of view of the consumer of the statistics (eg estate agents) not from the generator of the statistics. The whole point of statistics is to give you an overview without having to look at individual data points. Let me elaborate the point. There are around 37 different routing keys in the Dublin area. So, if house prices go up in Swords, but down in Lucan, then you can see that because those areas have different routing keys. On the other hand, most of Galway is covered by one routing key (H91), covering a population of around 250,000 people. If house prices go up in Galway city but down in Gort, then you won't see that in the statistics because they are all lumped in together. The question is why did they create those massive routing key areas like H91? Why didn't they subdivide them into smaller areas? You seem to be saying, that's all very well for house price statistics, but how can you be sure that a subdivision that suits house prices, would be useful for other uses? I'm saying that's nonsense because any subdivision would be better than none at all. Here is a page showing the data indexed by routing key:http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=HPA04&PLanguage=0
GJG wrote: » Plodder, you are stumbling towards the answer there. Sure, be they in the UK (up to 26 residences in each postcode) or in Germany (up to 100,000), people can use the arbitrary postcode areas for organising data or other items. Of course it is normally only a coincidence that the areas are suitable for the use, though as you say, in the UK areas can be combined if they are too small, though even that may not be perfect where a very specific boundary is needed (say, a watershed). But there are thousands of potential uses, and no 'size' is going to suit them all, unless it is done the way Eircode does it - have one residence per code. Then you can combine them any way you want, so the system suits any use.
Sam Russell wrote: » Is the decision to use such large routing keys affecting the take up of Eircode for many or specific uses?
Sam Russell wrote: » It is both HOW and WHERE Eircode has been implemented. Discussions here have been on the use by SUSI getting Eircodes to speed processing grant applications - that is a HOW it is used example. I am sure there are many other examples of innovative uses (quoted by yourself) that are better filed under HOW than WHERE. [The design arguments are for another thread unless they impact on implementation.]
ukoda wrote: » I thought it was for WHERE it's being used. Not a thread for rehashing old design arguments that have been closed off in many other threads.
Sam Russell wrote: » Surely that is the point of this thread. Implementation is about the HOW it is used. The routing codes are too big and too unwieldy for any use other than to help An Post deliver mail by the current system. A little forethought on their behalf would have got the routing codes reduced into similar population sizes. However we are where we are a bad design that some are trying to use.
ukoda wrote: » Have we moved on now to complain about HOW people are using eircode?
plodder wrote: » You're mixing up a few different things there. The fact that Eircodes are unique per household is not relevant to the question of whether routing keys are a useful index for aggregate statistics like house prices. We are looking at this from the point of view of the consumer of the statistics (eg estate agents) not from the generator of the statistics. The whole point of statistics is to give you an overview without having to look at individual data points. Let me elaborate the point. There are around 37 different routing keys in the Dublin area. So, if house prices go up in Swords, but down in Lucan, then you can see that because those areas have different routing keys. On the other hand, most of Galway is covered by one routing key (H91), covering a population of around 250,000 people. If house prices go up in Galway city but down in Gort, then you won't see that in the statistics because they are all lumped in together. The question is why did they create those massive routing key areas like H91? Why didn't they subdivide them into smaller areas? You seem to be saying, that's all very well for house price statistics, but how can you be sure that a subdivision that suits house prices, would be useful for other uses? I'm saying that's nonsense because any subdivision would be better than none at all. Here is a page showing the data indexed by routing key:http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=HPA04&PLanguage=0
plodder wrote: » Bray Head wrote: » If the estate agent is so curious she can download the PPR database herself and parse and analyse it by town or townland. Very small areas will have very volatile results anyway as transactions are fewer. as a matter of interest, where can you download it from?The thing about small areas is that you can combine them if they are too small. But, if they are too big then there's not much you can do with them.
Bray Head wrote: » If the estate agent is so curious she can download the PPR database herself and parse and analyse it by town or townland. Very small areas will have very volatile results anyway as transactions are fewer.
plodder wrote: » as a matter of interest, where can you download it from? The thing about small areas is that you can combine them if they are too small. But, if they are too big then there's not much you can do with them.
ukoda wrote: » As the other poster pointed out, they can sub divide and group the unique identitiers any way which way they choose in the database. They can group all the city small areas, all the west ones etc. to any level of detail they want
plodder wrote: » Then the point is that eircode doesn't add much. It's true that eircodes as unique identifiers means you can cross reference different datasets, which is useful, but the claim you repeated was that classifying statistics by routing key is some big improvement. It might be in some parts of the country, eg County Dublin and Cork city, but it definitely isn't in other parts like Galway. It's not much help to a Galway estate agent to have one combined statistic that includes East Galway, Galway city, most of Connemara, and North Clare. They would prefer to see separate statistics at a finer level of detail. Another example of why it was wrong to base routing keys on the very strange historic delivery structure of An Post. On the whole "no code doesn't solve every problem" point - the answer to that is simply - why didn't they subdivide the these enormous routing key areas into smaller ones? There is no good answer to that question.
plodder wrote: » sondagefaux wrote: » It doesn't say that the information is classified by routing key areas alone - prices can still be broken down by county and town for example. Then the point is that eircode doesn't add much. It's true that eircodes as unique identifiers means you can cross reference different datasets, which is useful, but the claim you repeated was that classifying statistics by routing key is some big improvement. It might be in some parts of the country, eg County Dublin and Cork city, but it definitely isn't in other parts like Galway. It's not much help to a Galway estate agent to have one combined statistic that includes East Galway, Galway city, most of Connemara, and North Clare. They would prefer to see separate statistics at a finer level of detail. Another example of why it was wrong to base routing keys on the very strange historic delivery structure of An Post. On the whole "no code doesn't solve every problem" point - the answer to that is simply - why didn't they subdivide the these enormous routing key areas into smaller ones? There is no good answer to that question.
sondagefaux wrote: » It doesn't say that the information is classified by routing key areas alone - prices can still be broken down by county and town for example.
What benefit are there to using Eircodes? There are three uses for Eircodes in the new RPPI. Firstly, as an important pillar in the National Data Infrastructure, Eircodes help to match the stamp duty data to the Geodirectory. Secondly, the first three digits of the Eircode (which are known as routing keys) are used as a price-determining variable in the model in order to help explain the change in residential property prices over time. Thirdly, the CSO is able to present new statistical outputs on volume, value and average price of residential property classified by Eircode routing keys. There are 139 Eircode routing keys.
plodder wrote: » sondagefaux wrote: » Another use for Eircodes - geographical analysis of house prices within the Residential Property Price Index:http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/collapse-in-irish-property-prices-more-severe-than-previously-thought-1.2799482 Eircode routing keys (the first three characters of the Eircodes) are used in the new index to better account for locational differences between dwellings. Only county level information was available in the original index outside of Dublin Eircode routing keys are a terrible yardstick for making comparisons outside of Dublin. In the West of the country routing key areas are massive, eg the one that straddles Galway, Clare and Mayo. Obviously, if you have an Eircode license then you can use small areas. But, then again, if you want to relate the stats to areas that the public can identify with, then maybe you are stuck with routing keys anyway.
sondagefaux wrote: » Another use for Eircodes - geographical analysis of house prices within the Residential Property Price Index:http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/collapse-in-irish-property-prices-more-severe-than-previously-thought-1.2799482
Eircode routing keys (the first three characters of the Eircodes) are used in the new index to better account for locational differences between dwellings. Only county level information was available in the original index outside of Dublin
