solodeogloria wrote: » I still think calling people hateful for not agreeing with people on sexuality or gender is shrill.
solodeogloria wrote: » That's how Christians work. We don't just agree with stuff because the world works that way.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening! I had a full post written but lost it. First point - marienbad - I agree with you that Christians haven't always spoken in honourable terms. I can only speak for myself. I still think calling people hateful for not agreeing with people on sexuality or gender is shrill. The reality is that Bible believing Christians are going to hold to what the Bible preaches. Roman Catholics will hold to the magisterum. I disagree with the teaching of that church on gender. It is more complex and it needs to be thought through prayerfully with a Bible open. That's how Christians work. We don't just agree with stuff because the world works that way. aloysius - I found your post hard to understand. Do you mean should churches change their views? Perhaps. But with a Bible open and prayerfully. Personally I would leave my church if they conducted same-sex marriages because the Bible holds to marriage between a man and a woman. I would also leave my church if the minister said premarital sex was OK. In fact if they persistently preached against the Bible on any issue I would have no choice but to leave. I think on gender issues the church needs to prayerfully chew over what God says on the issue. I think the Catholic position is unconsidered and it doesn't take into account the nuances and complexities behind the issue. Does that help? Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening! This is my last post for today. aloysius: I found your post interesting. I want to offer some thoughts. Firstly - on my distinction between Bible believing Christians and Roman Catholics. The only difference I wanted to stress was that Reformed churches tend to regard the Bible as the ultimate authority and the Roman Catholic Church regards the Papal magisterum as the ultimate authority over everything including Biblical understanding. This article explains some things that could shed light on my thinking. Secondly - I've not read any two Bible translations that have led me to a different understanding about sexuality from a Christian perspective. I'd love to be proven wrong and I'm willing to be. But it requires showing me a Biblical case for it. The reason why same-sex marriage and endorsing premarital sex are red lines are because the Bible seems rather clear on these issues. I'd treat any other endorsement of sin in the same way. I'm not convinced that we've done enough thinking on gender. Prayerful consideration of what the Bible says is broadly speaking how Christians work these issues through. We're called to be countercultural when the Bible grates with the prevailing culture. That's not easy but the world says so is not an answer. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
aloyisious wrote: » I assume Papal Magisterum translates into Papal infallibility. My understanding was that that referred to when the Pope told the RC faithful what he believed God meant on doctrinal matters and not the rest of the bible, given how it contain's writings, letters, epistles and sermons from early Christians, at times of the "according-to" variety.
aloyisious wrote: » Deleted original 2nd Para and inserted new one: Countercultural? That's a new one on me. You mean a good old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud?
aloyisious wrote: » Wouldn't surprise me if there are mutterings below stairs in the Vatican that Frank is a closet liberation-theolologist, seeing as he's from South America and a Jesuit.
The magisterium of the Catholic Church is the church's authority or office to establish its own authentic teachings. That authority is vested uniquely by the pope and by the bishops, under the premise that they are in communion with the correct and true teachings of the faith.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning! This is what I'm referring to: Edit: aloysius - I think Christians actually are called to be stuck in the mud. We're called to be faithful to what God has said in His Word. God doesn't change and His Word is timeless. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Callers are fiercely divided about a controversial preacher who's due to speak in Kilkenny later this month. Angus Buchan has been banned from Scotland because of his views on homosexuality and the role of women in the home. The organiser of the event also talks to Joe.
solodeogloria wrote: » Having said that I don't think it is the job of secular society to police churches or any other place of worship. Part of being in a secular society means that church and state should be separated. This works both ways around.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning! Again it depends on the circumstances. If Kilkenny City Council invited him then I think that's inappropriate. I think his comments aren't what the Bible actually teaches on the issue. That said if the room was rented by a church I think it's still a matter of freedom. I'm really not into laws restricting speech. I'm also not into people policing opinions using law. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Earlier today: Kildare FM reported that a gay couple, Jacinta O’Donnell and Geraldine Flanagan, have stepped down from the church choir at the Catholic parish church, St Michael’s, in Athy, Co. Kildare (top). The station reported:
Jacinta O’Donnell and Geraldine Flanagan, who married in July, have stepped down from the church choir and other church music activities, due to what they say is the level of pressure placed upon them and the church by a local church activist Anthony Murphy [of newspaper Catholic Voice]. Mr Murphy is strongly opposed to gay people being active in the Catholic church in what he calls leadership roles. Mr Murphy has also conveyed his views to parish priest Canon Frank McEvoy, whom the couple says has been supportive of them. Kildare FM also reported that, a few days after Ms O’Donnell and Ms Flanagan got married, Mr Murphy sent Ms O’Donnell the following text:Jacinta, I hope you will now have the decency to resign from the church choir and as a eucharistic minister, following the events of last Wednesday [their wedding day]. Further to this, in an interview with Shane Beatty, on Kildare FM, Jacinta O’Donnell told Mr Beatty: “Well, we’ve been mulling over [the decision to leave] it all summer. When we were made aware of Anthony Murphy’s feelings and when we saw some of the very negative and, I suppose, hateful stuff really that was on his Facebook page, etc, and then when I got the personal text message from him.” “Geraldine and I, you know, we, the only thing we’ve ever tried to do is provide a music ministry and the whole idea behind that was to enhance the eucharist and we felt that, bringing this trouble to the church door would be really futile and negate anything that we were trying to do.” “So we thought about it long and hard and it was, and still is, a very difficult decision that we came to. We’re both very upset by it.”“…we understood that there were going to be protests or some form of demonstrations, you know, to basically encourage us to leave, shall I say. And we felt that the ordinary people, that were just going along to their weekly mass, you know, didn’t need to be subjected to this.” “And it was going to defeat the entire purpose of our whole reason to be there in the first place and I think we felt we had more respect for the house of God then to have that brought to its door or because of us and we felt that the easier thing to do would be just to walk away.” Meanwhile, Mr Murphy told Mr Beatty: “This is not about personalities. Well clearly, you know, the way the choir operates in Athy, Jacinta and Geraldine are positioned on the altar, in the sanctuary, you know, on a stage almost, sharing the stage with the parish priest.” “You can not have a contradiction where the church teaches one thing and people who are right next to the tabernacle, the blessed sacrament, contradict all of that teaching.”
Cabaal wrote: » This is certainly relevant to this forum, awful carry on by the person in question they should be utterly ashamed of themselves for pushing the two women out of the choir. He's a sorry excuse for a human being.http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/09/08/different-him-sheet/ Interview https://soundcloud.com/kfmradiokildare/anthony-murphy-and-jacinta-oconnell-08092016
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening! Needless to say, I can't comment in full on that situation without full information on what happened. The sort of vigilante behaviour being described seems to be wrong. However, I have heard of people in the past being told that they should step down from leadership positions in churches, or not being considered for leadership roles in churches because of unrepentant sin (not on this particular issue but on others). I think that is reasonable. If you are in a position of leadership in a church whether that is in running home group, Bible studies in the church, helping out with children's work, or any other ministry role where you are giving theological input into peoples lives then it is entirely reasonable that if you are refusing to submit to Christ in areas of your life then you shouldn't be leading others. I think that's fair, but it is for the church council and the pastoral leadership team to make these decisions prayerfully and in a gracious manner, but these sorts of decisions need to be made. Internal church matters should be resolved within the church provided that the law of the land isn't broken. Edit: As an aside, Having said that I am thankful for the massive work that people with same-sex attraction do in the church. I've been particularly inspired by this group of people who continue to live for Jesus despite their same-sex attraction. They see that Jesus and His gospel is more important. It's an encouragement for me as a single heterosexual guy to do the same thing. I've also been encouraged to see more and more that marriage isn't an answer that makes all of our problems go away. Good friendships are also key and important. The truth is that our friendships are too shallow, and it puts too much pressure on marriage, or on people to be married. Jesus and what He brings is far far better than any earthly relationship that we can be in now. Marriage (by God's definition) is great, but it is overblown to a huge extent in many Christian churches causing damage both to same-sex attracted people and other single people in our churches. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
aloyisious wrote: » I can only wonder if Mr Murphy consulted with his PP before he used private phone and public media sources to make his views known on what seem's to be an internal church matter, seeing as it directly involves the church at parish level. I'd reckon any PP wouldn't like a parishioner causing a public split inside the parish he's responsible for and making decisions best left to the PP. As for the paper-link with Mr Murphy, it might be worth reading the next few issues to see if he uses it to mention his actions and further inform the public of his views of other parishioners private lives. The paper is available at some RC church vestibules.
solodeogloria wrote: » Needless to say, I can't comment in full on that situation without full information on what happened. The sort of vigilante behaviour being described seems to be wrong.
Nick Park wrote: » I agree that the whole approach on this thing, with Facebook posts etc, seems to be profoundly unChristian.
lazybones32 wrote: » And tbh, I'm surprised at you two (NP +SDG).. you surely know that certain posters only show up in this forum to stir things up and post anything that they hope will reflect poorly on Christ and His people.
Matthew 18:15-23 ESV wrote: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
lazybones32 wrote: » I hope you're not going to read the paper without making some contribution towards it? It would appear that the man approached his PP about this before - one of links in the OP had a FB snapshot of the comment. I've read the Broadsheet article and saw the only FB post earlier linked and it is far from vigilante. The FB post reads "My parish priest sees nothing wrong with two lesbians - who have entered into a same sex "marriage" - running the Parish choir and acting as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. In fact, he was quite content to allow them to hand out invitations to their wedding in the church after choir practice! Is it any wonder the Church is in such crisis!" The post doesn't name the priest, the women or the location (FB incorrectly designates the area as Dublin) The post wasn't directed at the women but towards the priest. One of the women called his FB posts "hateful" but there was only one linked, so I don't know whether there was more. So, we have married lesbians, directing the choir and choosing what hymns are sung at Mass and then distributing the body of Christ to the flock with the approval of the priest. One of these women said that they "didn't want to bring trouble to the Church door" (yet goes on local radio?) but has no problem in publicly disregarding an awful lot of what that Church holds and will do so from the side of the Altar. The PP has a lot to answer for too, just in case it seems like I'm only focusing on the women. And tbh, I'm surprised at you two (NP +SDG).. you surely know that certain posters only show up in this forum to stir things up and post anything that they hope will reflect poorly on Christ and His people.
aloyisious wrote: » From your understanding of the situation caused by Mr Murphy's dis-satisfaction with his PP's response to his personal feelings on the involvement of the married lesbian couple in parish church activities, do you think it possible that in all Mr Murphy's actions with regard to the women involved when he made his decision to make his objections public, he completely forgot about them and that their presence in parish and direct church activities was the initial cause of his upset?
lazybones32 wrote: » It's a very limited understanding of the situation, based on the Broadsheet.ie story (I'm not spending 15mins listening to the podcast), so don't look to me for info beyond an interpretation. He didn't publicize any names or personal info and it doesn't appear that he has a problem with them being involved in the parish activities* but that he has a problem with people whose lives are openly inconsistent with Church teaching, openly holding positions of leadership in the same Church, with the apparent approval of the local priest. He made no derogatory comment about the women or the priest or homosexuals or choirs (not that I've seen anyway). If a complaint was put to the PP because a known serial-cheater or a wife-beater or pro-abortion activist or (insert any of many examples here) isn't suitable for directing the choir and ministering holy communion, this wouldn't be an issue. If he just wants them out because they are gay, he's found a legitimate reason to hide behind. * the text to the woman did ask her if she was leaving the choir, not just stepping down as director, so maybe he does want them to stop all activity...I can't say.
solodeogloria wrote: » They also don't deserve to be publicly shamed on the internet.
solodeogloria wrote: » Jesus gives us a procedure to deal with pastoral issues internally in Matthew 18.
solodeogloria wrote: » For the record even if people are here to stir up the pot I'm thankful for them. We shouldn't be happy to go through a process of non-thinking. I'm thankful for the opportunity to be challenged by non-Christians.
solodeogloria wrote: » We should be so immersed in what our gracious God has done for us that we should long for our daily actions to reflect who we are in Jesus. We should reflect our new status in the Lord Jesus in everything that we do.
solodeogloria wrote: » This guy doesn't seem to do this. It seems like he's put an irrational fear of profaning the altar above loving the two women and longing for them to abide in Jesus.
solodeogloria wrote: » To ask another question. Is it only homosexuality that profanes the altar? Or are the sins that the rest of the choir commit doing the same thing?
Timberrrrrrrr wrote: » Probably has an issue with many priest's so
lazybones32 wrote: » ? They weren't named on the internet; the PP wasn't named and neither was the location of the Church named. I'm sure I've written this already. It has only come to public attention because - I assume - one of the women was willing to go on public radio. And it would appear the man did just that - he contacted the woman personally; he went to the priest; and he described the situation (not the identities involved) on FB. Which order did he execute the process in? I don't know.
lazybones32 wrote: » Speak for yourself... I think a lot. There is a difference between an honest person who is critical of the Church and those who want to use every opportunity to mock and insult, to destroy and tear down.
lazybones32 wrote: » How does openly contradicting the precepts of a Church, from the top of that church, reflect who we are in Jesus? What had He to say about hypocrites?
lazybones32 wrote: » Have you ever read the OT and the strict measures put in place in order to keep holy certain places? God apparently wants the altar to be kept holy too! But surely we must disregard that now... I don't know what love the man has in his heart but if his motivation is promoting respect for Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, I won't fault the action.
John 4:19-24 ESV wrote: The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
lazybones32 wrote: » I'll offer my thoughts on a case-by-case basis. This topic deals exclusively with married homosexuals having roles and functions within the Church.
solodeogloria wrote: » This is a cop out. It is a fair question. We need to be consistent. We need to answer it. If we can't it betrays that we're not doing this out of genuine godly concern but out of homophobia.
