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Child Item

Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

Airyfairy12

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

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Lackey

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Not true
I've seen several cases of students being suspended for online bullying
It can and is done
It's part of the school code of behaviour and outlines the consequences if the rules are broken
Parents and students sign it agreeing to the terms

OP I'm sorry to hear of this sad death in your area

razorblunt

I remember a conversation my parents had with me when I was 7 and going into 2nd class. They'd just been to some sort of Parent Induction night where the Principal made a statement saying that bullying was not tolerated in the school and there had been no reports of it in the previous school year.

Some parent stood up and declared that not to be true as her "son was put head first into a bin last year".
The Principal's response is to ask her why this was the first time he'd heard of it, the lad's teacher confirmed she didn't receive any report of it either. The guy told his Mam who didn't do anything about it until 5 months later on this night when her next child was starting.

The Teachers need some help too, I have friends who are teachers who said it can be easy to spot the "mean girls-esque" group and group thinkings but when they go outside the door the lose all sight of what's going on unless they're told. It's a tough position to be in with regards to accountability.

[Deleted User]

But schools are accountable and can be sued if negligence is shown.

I understand it has happened in the UK.

Like other claims against schools, eg. injuries to students when playing on school grounds, they are not easy cases.

freedominacup

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

There have been a series of suspensions in my kids school for social media infractions in the past two years. They generally have the offending posts down in a few hours and the offenders feet don't touch the ground on their way out through the gate. This "it's impossible to police" line is just a cop out.

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

[Deleted User]

freedominacup wrote: »

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

How should it be dealt with?

Remember, these are children and teenagers. A lot of 'he said, she said' is par for the course. Proof is hard to come by. Yes there is CCTV but for obvious reasons its use is limited in schools, and it can't tell the full story.

Personally, if we have to go down the road of punishments for people who are not the bully themselves, I would start with the parents.

[Deleted User]

freedominacup wrote: »

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

I think it may be harsh to punish a school and the other students collectively, either by cutting their funding or suspending teachers, for wrongs carried out by students. Plus it may be an extremely subjective matter, is bullying more prevalent in larger urban schools rather than smaller rural schools where all kids and families may know each other, would the be weighting of multiple smaller incidents versus one bad case etc.

Boom_Bap

The schools should not be punished. They should be supported to assist in tackling the problem.

More education (students and staff) and assistance is needed, not punishment of the educators.

Samaris

I suppose there is an element that things written on Facebook or Twitter leave a path. The message is still there (unless the poster has a sudden rush of common sense and deletes it), and can be seen by other people. There -is- the question of what do the teachers do then. We're still only just tackling the issue of how laws apply on the internet, and really, it comes down to if the principal is both knowledgeable about online harassment and feels it their duty to intervene as a responsible adult. A principal who doesn't understand the internet or how Fb/Twitter works, well, it's pretty easy to see how they wouldn't have the first idea of what to do about it and could very easily decide it's not the school's issue. Although they might get those sites banned on school computers.

It will probably improve as teachers who themselves grew up with online social networking gradually take over the top positions and make it part of their ethos, but right at the moment, as weird as it may seem, we're still actually only in the changeover period from a predominantly non-internet world to a predominantly connected one.

Not saying that this is right, I think it does need to be tackled more obviously and in and by schools as well as parents. We essentially allow teenagers and kids access to an anonymous Wild West and then get them to sort themselves out. Sure, I think we've all got examples of presumed adults acting the complete moron online, so expecting teenagers to show any more cop on is probably over-optimistic.

Widdershins

Yes!Parents entrust the care of their children to school staff. A child being abused, in the form of bullying, on the premises is a terrible breach of trust by the school. The fact that it was allowed to happen in the first place and the fact that it often continues unchecked, with many schools either ignoring it or denying it, mimimising its seriousness or claiming that they can't do anything. That's from experience, and I know of many parents who have had no success in getting schools to do something about it.

silverharp

schools should teach the psychology of teenager bullying, you could almost parody the big lad who is a bit dim who needs to compensate or the queen Bee who keeps her minions in line and uses social exclusion to bully the target. If all kids were aware of the games you could make the bully look like the oddball

Yurt2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

The schools should not be punished. They should be supported to assist in tackling the problem.

More education (students and staff) and assistance is needed, not punishment of the educators.

Disagree. The school I went to, bullying conducted by kids of families that were 'pillars of the community'; i.e from good hurling families or the sons of prominent local business people was routinely ignored or swept under the carpet. A lot of kids went through a lot of unnecessary hardship to keep the illusion of harmony in our school. Not to rock the boat etc. Very little of it was 'character forming' in the positive sense. The principle is still in situ, sitting on his oxter in denial about the type of characters he's churning out. The townies of course were treated in a far harsher fashion when stepping out of line.

Samaris

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

Boom_Bap

Yurt! wrote: »

Disagree. The school I went to, bullying conducted by kids of families that were 'pillars of the community'; i.e from good hurling families or the sons of prominent local business people was routinely ignored or swept under the carpet. A lot of kids went through a lot of unnecessary hardship to keep the illusion of harmony in our school. Not to rock the boat etc. Very little of it was 'character forming' in the positive sense. The principle is still in situ, sitting on his oxter in denial about the type of characters he's churning out. The townies of course were treated in a far harsher fashion when stepping out of line.

I'm not trying to disagree with you here, I'm trying to learn more.

If the students who are bullying, and the kids that are being bullied are more aware of what is going on, would that in theory not reduce the bullying?

Also, if the principal receive more education on the matter, would it not put him in a better position to combat.

With those 2 aspects working together, would that not reduce bullying?

I should also note that I was in schools in Dublin where there was alot of anonimity, that is where my backkground lies and would not have local families having influence in the running of a school.

Speedwell

Samaris wrote: »

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

There will always be workplace harassment. It's inevitable. Employees and managers are trying to protect the jobs they depend on and jockey for bonuses and promotions. We see it in children too, although they tend to be less polished about it, because they have the same need to maintain their status.

Employees are at different levels in their professional development. The first few days in a new job can potentially make or break your career. Teams and alliances form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our professional and social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was retired and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked at work, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for managers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

We don't allow people to bully and harass and abuse each other in the workplace, but when it's kids it's more acceptable?

silverharp

Samaris wrote: »

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

Ive kids heading for teenage years and Ive no expectation that they ought to have a bullying free environment , its pretty much programmed into some teenagers based on where they are in the pecking order. I see it more in terms of explaining the lay of the land to kids who might be bullied, giving them a longer term perspective, give them strategies to avoid bullying or overcome it and turn a problem into a positive solution

Yurt2

There is a certain inevitability of a level of bullying in schools I agree. I am however firmly of the belief that a lot of Irish schools abdicate their responsibility when it comes to bullying, they need to be held responsible. A child has a right to go to school in a place where the management are at least trying to mitigate against bullying behaviour and maladaptive personality types. From my own experience in school, bullying only got dealt with when it came to the surface in acts of violence (kid snapping and lashing out, or some poor kid getting a hiding from feral thugs). There was zero attempt at instilling a culture of respect or kindness. In fact, the teachers had a barely concealed contempt for a lot of the kids (and their own jobs) and let mob rule take over, who cares if a kid has to switch schools because he was getting regularly bullied right?

This type of thing spills over to society and adulthood.

Samaris

Speedwell wrote: »

There will always be workplace harassment. It's inevitable.

...

We don't allow people to bully and harass and abuse each other in the workplace, but when it's kids it's more acceptable?

I said nowhere in that that it is acceptable, in fact, I emphasised at the end that adults do still have a duty to help students being bullied and do their best to put a stop to it. C'mon, Speedwell, you read my post pretty thoroughly, that was an unfair translation to put on it!

What I said was that kids will bully and be bullied as part and parcel of a large group of young people figuring out their social network, how to create one, how to stay -in- one, and how to advance or fall off the pecking order. And in my experience, certain types of kids tend to get picked on more because they are obviously different in some way. Yes, that holds true with adults also, but adults, in theory, have the added years and experience to not act on it. Adults in general also don't have the added obvious differences as between kids (primarily circling around puberty and associated mental and physical growth) That adults, one would expect, to bully less is obviously not true for all! It's more raw and more visible with children though, and it has a greater long-term effect on them too.

Nope, that post solves nothing. And maybe it sounds like victim-blaming, which isn't intended (although if it gives any pointers to which kids may be more likely to be bullied, that's something). But it's my own experience of it.

Discodog

I am with the OP. I would make the head teacher responsible just as the director of a company would be. It is up to the head to ensure that:

All of their staff are competent in recognising bullying & empathetic to the victims.

That all of the pupils are made aware of what constitutes bullying & what the consequences are.

That there are systems in the school to make it easy for pupils to report bullying.

I would create an offence of failing to take reasonable care if one doesn't already exist.

Years ago my friend's daughter attended a secondary school in England. They had sixth formers who volunteered to be listeners & had a badge to identify themselves. They did things like putting little post boxes in the toilets so that pupils could post anonymous notes if they were worried.

The school had 1200 pupils & bullying was unheard of & that was 30 years ago.

freedominacup

Samaris wrote: »

We're still only just tackling the issue of how laws apply on the internet, and really, it comes down to if the principal is both knowledgeable about online harassment and feels it their duty to intervene as a responsible adult. A principal who doesn't understand the internet or how Fb/Twitter works, well, it's pretty easy to see how they wouldn't have the first idea of what to do about it and could very easily decide it's not the school's issue. Although they might get those sites banned on school computers.

It will probably improve as teachers who themselves grew up with online social networking gradually take over the top positions and make it part of their ethos, but right at the moment, as weird as it may seem, we're still actually only in the changeover period from a predominantly non-internet world to a predominantly connected one.

This "shur wha' would we know about it" line doesn't fly any longer. No one currently working outside of manual labouring jobs has less than twenty years experience with computers and internet access as tools of their employment. Both vice principals in my sons school are younger than I am and I'm in my early forties. If schools "want" to police it the tools are there. If they want to police it they'll get huge support from parents. If they don't or their staffs don't want to police it then there should be serious repercussions for the school and staff if they are found to be negligent in this area. This should happen in a very public way so that parents of prospective students have it well flagged that a particular school is negligent in this area. No mercy whatsoever for schools which do not make prevention of bullying both online and in the school environs a priority.

jmayo

spurious wrote: »

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Exactly.
As well as holding schools and teachers responsible for what happens within their remit I would hold parents responsible.

Too many people fail to take responsibility in this country.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it may be harsh to punish a school and the other students collectively, either by cutting their funding or suspending teachers, for wrongs carried out by students. Plus it may be an extremely subjective matter, is bullying more prevalent in larger urban schools rather than smaller rural schools where all kids and families may know each other, would the be weighting of multiple smaller incidents versus one bad case etc.

Screw that for a game of cowboys.

I have known a few children who had to be take out of one school and moved because the school and teachers did shag all about the bullying of children.

It is too often glossed over and some mealy mouthed lip service is paid to some anti bullying policy that isn't worth as much as the loo roll in the toilets.

If the same excusatory system was left in place in places of employment we would still have bosses walking all over employees.
As someone else said why does it have to be different for children.

And let me tell you rural and small town schools can be the worse offenders where family connections or connections to the football team/hurling team give some people carte blanche to walk over everyone else often in the latter case with the tacit blessing of the sports man teachers.

Musefan

I don't think schools should be responsible for the actions of a child in the first instance, but they should be accountable for the proper management of the situation. I think what is difficult is young people are often unclear of what might happen if they report an instance of bullying, and schools may have different ways of dealing with different behaviours. In my mind, as a researcher in the field, the ideal model would be to have a standardised approach across all schools whereby the young person, parents and teachers are all aware of how to recognise bullying and the procedures to follow after a report is made. I think schools should have to keep comprehensive data on each instance and the follow up resulting from the report, and submit this for audit to the DoE each year. I think school and community wide prevention programs should also be mandatory on a yearly basis and that reported bullying instances should help schools understand when their programs are not working. In addition, I think schools should bring parents together during the school year to discuss how the school responds to their reports & what they can do at home to support their child. I also think young people should have input into the school bullying policy to help build the idea that they as a community won't tolerate the behaviour, rather than it being something dictated from the top down.

pragmatic1

Yes. I think schools should absolutely have to do everything in their power to prevent bullying. Bullying can affect a young person's self esteem well into their adulthood and beyond. It's a very serious issue.

endacl

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Fine them maybe? anything! Maybe it would encourage them to crack down on bullying

Definitely living up to username...

Speedwell

Samaris wrote: »

I said nowhere in that that it is acceptable, in fact, I emphasised at the end that adults do still have a duty to help students being bullied and do their best to put a stop to it. C'mon, Speedwell, you read my post pretty thoroughly, that was an unfair translation to put on it!

What I said was that kids will bully and be bullied as part and parcel of a large group of young people figuring out their social network, how to create one, how to stay -in- one, and how to advance or fall off the pecking order. And in my experience, certain types of kids tend to get picked on more because they are obviously different in some way. Yes, that holds true with adults also, but adults, in theory, have the added years and experience to not act on it. Adults in general also don't have the added obvious differences as between kids (primarily circling around puberty and associated mental and physical growth) That adults, one would expect, to bully less is obviously not true for all! It's more raw and more visible with children though, and it has a greater long-term effect on them too.

Nope, that post solves nothing. And maybe it sounds like victim-blaming, which isn't intended (although if it gives any pointers to which kids may be more likely to be bullied, that's something). But it's my own experience of it.

Nah, not aimed at you, or at victims, but at a culture that seems to think that abuse of one group (in this case schoolkids) is more acceptable than abuse of another group (in this case adults) due basically to the lower-status group's perceived weaknesses and inability to hit back. We have actual laws in place to help people affected by abuse and harassment in the workplace, you might notice.

topmanamillion

How about parents take responsibility for their children and discipline them when they are shown to be bullying?

It's absolute nonsense to blame teachers for the actions of other peoples children.

There needs to be legal guidelines put in place for children who bully other children.
As it is there are very few reprucussions for offenders and very few legal outlets to follow in severe cases.

Sometimes "talk to an adult" doesn't work.

Decent Skin

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

The only person who should be accountable for bullying is the bully.

Discodog

Decent Skin wrote: »

The only person who should be accountable for bullying is the bully.

Rubbish. There will always be people who act badly, especially if we allow them to. Many bullies are children who aren't accountable for the failings of their upbringing.

El_Duderino 09

bearhugs wrote:

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

In order to be accountable for bullying the school would need authority's to address bullying outside the school - at home, at sports events, during free time in the evening and weekend and holidays.

hairyslug wrote:

But it does expand out of school, the majority of the time, it will though have originated in the school.

That's a made up fact. You have no idea where children start to bully. If it were true it still wouldn't make the school responsible for bullying that happens elsewhere.

hairyslug wrote:

How to punish the school, I don't know but yes, the school should be held accountable to what happens, emotionally or physically on their grounds.

Unless you can somehow quantify the bullying that happens in the school and every other location, how could this happen?

What if the parenting style creates an aggressive bullying child? Should the teacher call out the family home and demand to observe the family to find the root of the problem? Should teachers be able to prescribe parenting styles to parents if it would cut down school bullying?

The problem is much bigger than the school. A more interesting question is whether parents should be held accountable for bullying. The answer is that bullying is bad but we don't have the collective will to eradicate it. The bullying policies that we have in schools and workplaces are better than nothing

Peregrinus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In order to be accountable for bullying the school would need authority's to address bullying outside the school - at home, at sports events, during free time in the evening and weekend and holidays.

They already have that authority. Schools act in loco parentis, remember, meaning that the extent of their authority is similar to the extent of a parent's authority. Just as a child's parents can discipline a child for what the child does outside the home, so a school can discipline a student for what the student does outside the school. So, for example, a school could have - and many schools do have - a responsible internet use policy, in which cyberbullying of one student by another would be a disciplinary matter, regardless of where the student happened to be when the offending material was posted.

rjpf1980

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

How was it preventable?
His classmates could have only been slagging him and he took it to heart because he was mentally ill. People with depression and anxiety are hypersensitive to criticism and that's that. How were a bunch of kids to know he would take his own life?
The teachers are not mental health professionals. They are teachers and they have a job to do. They can give out to kids punish them and raise their behavior with their parents etc but they can't police kids every moment of the day. Kids will form groups and cliques and the odd kids will be left out and slagging and teasing and pushing and shoving and mean carry on like wrecking a kids books or whatever are just part of school.
You can't save a kid from killing themselves as much as you imagine you can.