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Teaching coding at primary level

Tom Dunne

I saw an article in today's Irish Times about the Minister for Education suggesting the NCCA consider introducing coding into the primary curriculum.

As an educator at third level and as a technology enthusiast, I see this as a problem. While the intention has merit, quite simply not everyone is a coder. The language used "creative thinking" and "problem solving" suggest that technology, and coding in particular, is seen as some kind of silver bullet that will revolutionise learning.

I'd be interested in Primary Teachers views.

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strawberrie

To be honest we already do some coding in school with Khan academy and there is a coding week with some lovely primary level activities. I know a lot of schools have coder dojo clubs.
I've also used khan academy and ibm teacher workshops to teach myself some very basic coding too.
Formally introducing it would mean proper investment would be needed in teacher training and in IT equipment for schools. There simply isn't enough equipment and funds for maintaining what we have are non existent. Plus you need access to people with strong IT skills to do some of this maintenance.
I personally like coding and the logical problem solving skills it encourages. Some children clearly find it a lot easier than others and it can be surprising to see some who struggle but find math or other areas easy. The children enjoy it but many dislike Scratch programming which gives them blocks of code to use. The strong children prefer to see "real programming code" their words. These are children who will keep up the programming at home and after school outside of the introductory work we do at school. I teach 10-13 yr old children.

evolving_doors

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I saw an article in today's Irish Times about the Minister for Education suggesting the NCCA consider introducing coding into the primary curriculum.

As an educator at third level and as a technology enthusiast, I see this as a problem. While the intention has merit, quite simply not everyone is a coder. The language used "creative thinking" and "problem solving" suggest that technology, and coding in particular, is seen as some kind of silver bullet that will revolutionise learning.

I'd be interested in Primary Teachers views.

This is the bit that I'd be conscious of, to my mind (and my experience of friends who are programmers) 'coders' are usually born coders and learn it in their own time. So to assume that it'll churn out a dearth of programmers is foolhardy. Maybe though, as the last poster alluded to, that's not the aim. The aim is to just introduce it and see how kids get on. In the same vein we teach say History but that doesn't mean that the intention is to have enough Historians in ireland, there are other skills that come along with the subject. So I can see the benefits from more than just the 'pure programmers' perspective.

I think they might come to a stumbling block when the 'supply side' is looked at.
It's going to be teachers that will be implementing it (I don't think the dept. would entertain the idea of paying a programming professional teacher wages). This costs money for retraining. Are all primary teachers suited to it, or will they have to dumb it down to make it manageable. So in this process will they be standardising the teaching approach, whereas from the CoderDojo approach it's fairly dynamic and differentiated (if the groups aren't too big!).

Then there's the cost of extra IT.

Then the 'when' to do it (it appears that religion is being targeted.. so this could rumble on for a few more decades ).

Anyone remember the same push for foreign languages in primary and the funding that went with that.... how did that fare out?

Just create more opportunities/incentives for coder dojos. That seems to work. The govt have no issue in funding other charities to solve our health/social problems.

doc_17

Primary school is the wrong place for it in my opinion. I think it should be an optional subject in second level.

Exiled1

More fanciful stuff that NCCA tries so frequently. Twenty years ago 'enterprise' could be taught, three years ago it was Chinese, now coding.
As a former school Principal (post primary) who got sick and tired of the years of dumbing down attainment standards, the Dept would be better advised to properly resource STEM in schools. But in the short term the cheapest option for them is to encourage students to go to 'College' and pick up arts and business degrees on the cheap.
What our economy needs is meaningful engagement with STEM and properly directed apprenticeship programmes where students will learn technical and transferable skills. Coding is fine for the few naturals, who will pick it up easily in any case.

mtoutlemonde

Exiled1 wrote: »

More fanciful stuff that NCCA tries so frequently. Twenty years ago 'enterprise' could be taught, three years ago it was Chinese, now coding.
As a former school Principal (post primary) who got sick and tired of the years of dumbing down attainment standards, the Dept would be better advised to properly resource STEM in schools. But in the short term the cheapest option for them is to encourage students to go to 'College' and pick up arts and business degrees on the cheap.
What our economy needs is meaningful engagement with STEM and properly directed apprenticeship programmes where students will learn technical and transferable skills. Coding is fine for the few naturals, who will pick it up easily in any case.

It's all fine with STEM subjects but language subjects are always left lagging and there is nothing said about it except when it was highlighted in the news last year where there were little or no language graduates to take up positions in Ireland.

I really think that coding should be introduced into second level as students enter third level with zero knowledge of what code is unlike other subjects.

Exiled1

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's all fine with STEM subjects but language subjects are always left lagging and there is nothing said about it except when it was highlighted in the news last year where there were little or no language graduates to take up positions in Ireland.

I really think that coding should be introduced into second level as students enter third level with zero knowledge of what code is unlike other subjects.

Languages and 'soft' subjects dominate because they are seen to be 'easier' than STEM.....this is coming from a former English and History teacher!!
Our students are not challenged to think, nor are they challenged to learn principles and apply them using problem solving techniques. I know this is a sweeping statement but the expectations for secondary school students, parents and most teachers are for utterly predictable and unchallenging terminal examinations so they can easily attain their desired course.
Coding might be ok as a TY module. Otherwise merely leading to an already ludicrously overloaded curriculum.

evolving_doors

Exiled1 wrote: »

Languages and 'soft' subjects dominate because they are seen to be 'easier' than STEM.....this is coming from a former English and History teacher!!
Our students are not challenged to think, nor are they challenged to learn principles and apply them using problem solving techniques. I know this is a sweeping statement but the expectations for secondary school students, parents and most teachers are for utterly predictable and unchallenging terminal examinations so they can easily attain their desired course.
Coding might be ok as a TY module. Otherwise merely leading to an already ludicrously overloaded curriculum.

That may be the expectation alright but I think you're doing a bit of a disservice to all who just sat their exams to say they were unchallenged!

Exiled1

In most cases, the really challenging bit is around fulfilling expectations. The courses, materials, exam papers and marking schemes are designed to get nearly everybody through if they study at appropriate ability level.

mtoutlemonde

Exiled1 wrote: »

Languages and 'soft' subjects dominate because they are seen to be 'easier' than STEM.....this is coming from a former English and History teacher!!
Our students are not challenged to think, nor are they challenged to learn principles and apply them using problem solving techniques. I know this is a sweeping statement but the expectations for secondary school students, parents and most teachers are for utterly predictable and unchallenging terminal examinations so they can easily attain their desired course.
Coding might be ok as a TY module. Otherwise merely leading to an already ludicrously overloaded curriculum.

I wouldn't call a language subject a 'soft' subject - not in the slighest. I always tell my students that learning and knowing how to use a language is similar to coding - a simple example - consider the present tense of a verb - (1) get the verb (2) decide what category (ER/IR/RE French) (3) Remove the ER/IR/RE and (4) add the endings (5) use the correct subject and verb - I can't see the difference between this and programming a simple piece of code to add two values together (now there might be different things to look at e.g. minus numbers etc.) but they all will have the desired result. Coding (or language learning in my example) has procedures in order for that to work correctly. I hope that explains my point.

Now I do agree that the introduction to coding will improve students logical performance. Students don't know how to think for themselves and are always waiting for the teacher to show them how to do something and if showing them how to do this at an early stage is good because they will get used to it and by the time they reach the fantastic project maths - they should be able to work out problems.

beauf

I don't see any connection between coding, maths or spoken languages.

Perhaps it seems like that from the outside looking in.

beauf

Tom Dunne wrote: »

....While the intention has merit, quite simply not everyone is a coder.

Well this is it exactly. Its just boring to most people. It will probably put most kids off it for life, if introduced to it too early.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

The language used "creative thinking" and "problem solving" suggest that technology, and coding in particular, is seen as some kind of silver bullet that will revolutionise learning.....

The cynic in me thinks this is simply a political play for attention. As others have mentioned we've been here before with other things.

beauf

As an elective subject, in secondary, it might have some value. But primary school? Seriously.

mirrorwall14

There is a pilot coding course underway at second level, my school are involved next year.

The biggest issue I foresee (and discussed at the first meeting) is lack of qualifications and any common standard. Most teachers there were self taught and one or two even there under duress from a principal.

There is no plan to have any sort of upskilling course for teachers when in reality they need an equivalent of to the Limerick maths course where teachers can get properly up skilled in the subject for free. Churn out qualified teachers in coding and then you get coding in the schools. Otherwise it remains a fad subject where it's rarely offered

Tom Dunne

Interesting perspectives.

It is fascinating to see that to some, this is yet another attempt to introduce something in what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction, rather than something that has been thought through thoroughly. I wonder how many of the issues raised above have been considered by the minister - CPD, support, resources, etc.

I also think there is an element of political points-scoring to this. Then again, we could probably say that about most ministers' actions.

mirrorwall14

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Interesting perspectives.

It is fascinating to see that to some, this is yet another attempt to introduce something in what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction, rather than something that has been thought through thoroughly. I wonder how many of the issues raised above have been considered by the minister - CPD, support, resources, etc.

I also think there is an element of political points-scoring to this. Then again, we could probably say that about most ministers' actions.

My biggest concern is the training. I'm self taught and just wouldn't be confident enough in it. Would totally avail of training but I can't afford to be adding a third subject when I don't need it. The people running the course said there was no money available for full training courses even though they had been lobbying. Hence my complete scepticism. If they can't afford to properly train teachers for the second level course that is rolling out then there's no way in hell the primary one will be properly funded.

In addition the coding course for second level requires technology to run (gallileo and arduino kits) and the schools had to partially fund those themselves and will have to run the replacement/maintenance out of their own budget.

evolving_doors

It would be nice if those global tech companies coughed up a few quid, considering its them that are looking for it.

Mardy Bum

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Interesting perspectives.

It is fascinating to see that to some, this is yet another attempt to introduce something in what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction, rather than something that has been thought through thoroughly. I wonder how many of the issues raised above have been considered by the minister - CPD, support, resources, etc.

I also think there is an element of political points-scoring to this. Then again, we could probably say that about most ministers' actions.

The only thing a FG government are interested in is saving money in education so very little was considered.

I doubt there are more than a handful of teachers in the country who actually know anything about coding yet they expect teachers to teach it. And before someone says something about teachers guiding learning, subject knowledge is one of the most important aspects of teaching. It might as well be extra curricular if teachers don't have proper subject knowledge.

thunderdog

I think it's a very good idea for young kids to have some exposure to coding. Like all subjects, it won't be for everyone but it's a good skill to have. Admittedly you would most likely only have the basics after primary school, but that's a good grounding for those who end up in finance, science, engineering etc down the road.

More and more jobs require coding now, and it's not just your hardcore coders that have to complete these tasks.

I agree that's that there might be a lack of resources in schools for it though. Can any parents tell me what sort of technology primary schools have now?

byhookorbycrook

I was taught Comol in school as the next " big thing." And that was a complete and utter waste of time . Coding is basically breaking tasks into simple blocks of instructions , can be done in lots of different ways, not specifically through Scratch etc. I do use Scratch with my exceptionally able groups, but more as a break from other things and to involve them in peer learning . ETA have done some virtual reality stuff with the kids, now THAT was useful .

evolving_doors

Maybe he's just getting the ball rolling.. and handing it over to the NCCA to do the thinking for him.

doc_17

Whatever happened the Digital Strategy for Schools? Same as will happen coding in primary schools

James Bond Junior

I would love to know where they expect to fit it into an already bursting at the seams curriculum. An increase in maths and science time would be beneficial and take the time out of "alive fricking o" time.

Mardy Bum

Never mind the issue of computers, a lot of schools don't have the physical space either.

evolving_doors

I'm going to remain optimistic just to see where this will go with the Ncca.
Is it just a case of them going 'righto no probs we can design a curriculum' then a curriculum is designed and then it arrives back on the ministers desk (probably some other minister by then) ... and then it rumbles on until people finally realise it had nothing to do with 'coding in schools'... It was all about the issue of religion in schools... Then we go back to focusing on religion in schools yet again and then.... Upshot...
Minister wanted to spend billions for all children to have great jobs for the future. But the church said no as it would kill religion, threaten ethos ethos blah blah blah
It is silly season after all..

Oh wait, I was supposed to be optimistic.

mirrorwall14

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm going to remain optimistic just to see where this will go with the Ncca.
Is it just a case of them going 'righto no probs we can design a curriculum' then a curriculum is designed and then it arrives back on the ministers desk (probably some other minister by then) ... and then it rumbles on until people finally realise it had nothing to do with 'coding in schools'... It was all about the issue of religion in schools... Then we go back to focusing on religion in schools yet again and then.... Upshot...
Minister wanted to spend billions for all children to have great jobs for the future. But the church said no as it would kill religion, threaten ethos ethos blah blah blah
It is silly season after all..

Oh wait, I was supposed to be optimistic.

Isn't it a sad reflection on the hits our profession has taken in budget cuts that I went, 'wait, what? You are optimistic'?! And then laughed dryly and sadly to myself at the end